Typical Email from his teacher.

T

TeDo

Guest
Step, hold all ten fingers up in front of you (assuming you have all 10 of your fingers of course). NOW, count from the left and put the third finger(left hand middle finger) down keeping all your other fingers still up. Now look at ALL your fingers sticking in the air with the one finger down. How many fingers are sticking up to the left of your down finger and how many ALTOGETHER are sticking up to the right of your down finger. Does that help?
 

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
TeDo - yes, it does, and now it makes sense!

I'll stick to the rule I learned, though if I ever need to show Jett this, now I get how to explain.
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
I am so glad my kids just learned to memorize or we would still be sitting here in 3rd grade all these years later with me grilling them. And yes I know that when older everyone uses calculators. But I guess given that theory we should just bypass math altogether and hand them the calculators in 2nd grade and start teaching how to use them. After they learn their numbers and basic addition and subtraction we can just teach how to read work a calculator instead of math. And instead of spelling, we can teach them Word because in real life everyone relies on spellcheck!
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
Tedo...Im not throwing tomatoes. I do know how hard it is. Like I said, I did have a child who is/was Learning Disability (LD) in math when he was little. He for some reason outgrew that Learning Disability (LD) in math in HS because of a very good math teacher. But that is neither here nor there.

You would not believe how hard we worked with him for all his school work when he was in elementary school. We had to be on top of him constantly and he was a gifted student. It was hard. We did all the writing in pudding, rice, sand, etc without anyone telling us to do that. I came up with it on my own. We used manipulative's before I ever knew there was a name for them.

Cory can do all kinds of math simply because he learned it on a tape measure. Fractions are a 8itch and he wasnt in school for most of the time when they were learned but he learned them with a tape measure and can do them better than most folks. In his head.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Tape measure and fractions... yup. One of the best manipulatives they ever made for fractions! LOL. difficult child claimed in school that he didn't know how to do fractions "at all". Teacher called. 3-way meeting (incl difficult child). How to get him to learn fractions? I just pulled tape measure out of my pocket... and he was adding and subtracting and everything else in fractions... he just didn't know those were fractions. He had to learn to generalize that knowledge, but... its really practical.
 

Chaosuncontained

New Member
Step,

9x7 fold down your 7th finger...pointer finger on right hand. That will leave 6 fingers on the left of your folded down finger. And three fingers to the right of your folded down finger. 6 on the left, 3 on the right. 63! Took me a bit to figure it out also! I've been doing it off and on all morning! LOL
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
Now with my brain damage, I cant do adding and subtraction which is ten times more important. I dont use multiplication in daily life. But I do use adding and subtraction or should. I have a horrible time just knowing how many 20's I need to give the cashier if the bill is 54.26. I normally use a debit card but if for some reason I have to use cash I get really confused.

It was really bad about three months after I got home rehab after the meningitis. I simply couldnt do any math at all. I have gotten some better. The electric company came to the house because I had completely forgotten to pay the bill, again, brain. They wanted me to pay in cash and I had it in the house but the bill was something like 187.00 but I couldnt count out how many bills to give the man for all the tea in china. I had 20 dollar bills. I still cant do it for but for $100 at a time. Thankfully the guy from the electric co helped me I think. The guy had to tell me to count him out ten bills. I had to do it one at a time because I was so confused.
 

Kathy813

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Okay, you all knew I was going to have to jump into this one.

I'm all for using calculators (particularly graphing calculators at the high school level) but I still think students need to memorize their times tables. At some point, if the student is ever going to take high school math classes like algebra, they will have to know ther mulitplication facts or be at a huge disadvantage.

For those of you who might not remember how to factor, factoring a trinomial involves figuring out the factors of the constant that will add up to the middle coefficient. Yes, they can use a calculator but it takes a long time to figure out the factors that work when the number is large. If they spend five minutes trying to figure that out instead of just knowing the factors that work, the student will not be able to finish the rest of the test. As they advance through higher levels, many problems involve factoring so it becomes more and more important not to have to rely on a calculator for figuring out the factors.

As far as when will they ever use higher level mathematics, who knows? But do you really want to keep occupations that do use higher math from being something your child can ever consider? Also, today's students are predicted to have several different careers during their lifetimes. I have adults coming to me to get tutored because they have changed careers and gone back to school and have to take algebra again.

One last thought . . . easy child's best friend got an engineering degree and is currently in law school studying to be a patent lawyer. She is at the top of her class in law school while only being a C student while studying electrical engineering. easy child asked her why she is doing so well in law school and she replied that her math and science background taught her how to think logically and sequentially which is necessary when applying the laws they are taught to win cases. She said the other students are very bright also and know all of the laws but have trouble getting from step A to step Z to prove their case. She said it is just like doing a proof from geometry. :)

I tell that story to my students every time they say . . . "when are we ever going to use this?"
 

Kathy813

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Here is a you tube clip from the movie Stand and Deliver where the teacher shows the multiply by nines finger trick.

 

flutterby

Fly away!
difficult child still doesn't know her multiplication facts, and we've been working on them since the 3rd grade. She's in 11th now. It has made a huge impact on her math ability, and she struggles so much. It also took years for her to grasp the concept that division is the opposite of multiplication, even though she didn't have that issue with addition/subtraction.

Her teachers here don't worry about it and it infuriates me. They just tell her to use her calculator. We had a meeting about this very thing a few weeks ago. I was told that it's not "atypical" and that they have 18 year old kids that don't know that subtraction is the opposite of addition and that's not "atypical" either. Meanwhile, she can do a problem over and over and over again, and then suddenly change the way she does it and insist it's right.

For example, an algebra problem - after multiple steps, she got it down to:

X-3=-5

Instead of adding 3 to each side to solve for X, which she had been doing for years and had just completed a problem not 2 minutes prior, she wanted to add across, which you can't do because you can't add unlike terms. She wanted to add 1X-3 which gave her -2X=-5. I could not convince her that was not correct, even when I showed her - and had her walk me through - the previous problem that she had done correctly.

With word problems, she also doesn't know when to add, subtract, multiply, or divide. Forget getting an algebraic equation out of one. And she's essentially been in algebra for 3 years (pre-algebra in 9th grade, algebra IA (algebra split over 2 years) in 10th, and now algebra IB).

IOW, not being able to grasp multiplication facts is just a symptom of bigger math issues. Since my SD thinks it's not atypical, I'm having her privately evaluated for a math learning disability.

ETA: difficult child really wants to go into forensic science, but knows she won't be able to if we can't figure out what she needs in order to learn math.
 

buddy

New Member
but I still think students need to memorize their times tables. At some point, if the student is ever going to take high school math classes like algebra, they will have to know ther mulitplication facts or be at a huge disadvantage.

Well, that is probably the huge difference. I would absolutely say that for MOST kids who can go through higher level math classes, they probably can find some way to memorize those tables. Unless the have a very specific memory disability or a specific math learning disability. I will admit my perspective is of a mom who is looking at functional life skills, not having a child who will ever meet state standards for typical kids for graduation. on the other hand (little bragging here) I got his adapted state standard tests (after years of being below the 4th percentile on anything) and for math, he was at the boarder of meets and excedes standards for special needs students and a little above state average in meets standards in reading. He is not empty headed for sure!
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
I was waiting for Kathy to show up...lol.

Dee, you are dealing with a Q who is unique and not the average Special Education kid. Problem is that the teachers are using using these cheat sheets for almost all the kids now. Even when my kids were in school I was astounded to see that they were letting them put those sheets on their desks. Nope...not happening on mine.

You cant even work in construction if you cant do math. The schools used to do a mighty fine job of educating us but then they stumbled somewhere along the way. Not quite sure what the issue is.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
The schools used to do a mighty fine job of educating us but then they stumbled somewhere along the way. Not quite sure what the issue is

Here's my theory, for what its worth...

Back when you and I went to school, the school system was able to meet the needs of about 80% of the students. They were concerned about the other 20%, so they started trying all sorts of things to reach that 20%... PLUS be inclusive of disabilities (that alone complicates the math...).

So... having messed with a system that worked for 80% of the students, we now have a system that includes more (and much more complex) students - and yes, this is a good thing - but we're still not reaching success with all students... the success rate (graduation within 5 years of starting grade 10) is still stuck at about 80%. Thats 80% of a bigger, harder-to-serve pool, but still 80%. The sad part is... for a major portion of those 80%, it doesn't make any difference how you teach them, they are going to be relatively successful. For the rest of them... ANY "one size fits all" approach is going to leave some students falling between the cracks. So... there are students falling between the cracks today, that would have been successful 20 or 30 years ago... and students succeeding today who would have fallen between the cracks back then.

Short version: You can't meet all the needs of all the students, with a "one size fits all" approach to education. And yes, it IS a one-size-fits-all. For special needs, they offer "accommodations" and "inteventions"... but NOT what is actually needed - at least, in my experience and research, that would apply to 98% or more of schools. There will, of course, be exceptions... but I haven't seen any or even heard of any. Even really good alternative schools... seem to use "one size fits all", just a different size to start with, which is why they don't work for everybody either.
 
T

TeDo

Guest
Insane, you have a very valid point. I do need to add something though. Here in the US we have the No Child Left Behind act that has really messed everything up. It states that ALL students will be proficient in math and reading. ALL students are to meet a "set bar" that for some is entirely unreachable. Most states have tied funding to test results. Your school doesn't "make the grade", you don't get the money you've been getting which is causing budget cuts in schools making it even harder to reach that bar. It is a disaster. While I agree in the NCLB act in theory, it's implementation has actually done the opposite of what I feel the act is about. But then again, I'm only an "unemployed due to budget cuts due to decrease in funding" educator so what do I know.
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
NCLB was great in theory but a disaster in reality. Mainstreaming sounded good in theory but was a disaster in reality.

I read some great books when I was a teen and actually thinking of getting into teaching Special Education. I wanted to teach special children. The very difficult ones, probably what today would be autistic or EBD. At that point in time they kids were completely self contained and these were elementary school kids. Maybe 6 to 8 kids to a class with one teacher and one aid. I loved it. The teacher worked with the kids all the years they were in the school so there was no transitions. Lunches came to the classrooms. Then inclusion started and the classes were fazed out and the teacher lost her job and the kids were moved into regular classrooms and they started acting horribly and it was a mess. It was a mess.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
TeDo - NCLB is just one more "one size fits all" approach.

Janet - you're half right. For some of the kids, inclusion has been a total disaster. For others, its been a blessing. For the neurotypical kids at school, inclusion has been a good thing, if the "included ones" are not causing chaos in the classroom. We've had... downs, cerebral palsy, spinal bifida, autism, hearing impaired, visually impaired... successfully. But these have been physical or intellectual constraints, not behaviour. Haven't had experience with disruptive behavioural issues in the classroom, so can't speak to that.

"One size fits all"... often doesn't fit anybody!
 

buddy

New Member
Insane, you have a very valid point. I do need to add something though. Here in the US we have the No Child Left Behind act that has really messed everything up. It states that ALL students will be proficient in math and reading. ALL students are to meet a "set bar" that for some is entirely unreachable. Most states have tied funding to test results. Your school doesn't "make the grade", you don't get the money you've been getting which is causing budget cuts in schools making it even harder to reach that bar. It is a disaster. While I agree in the NCLB act in theory, it's implementation has actually done the opposite of what I feel the act is about. But then again, I'm only an "unemployed due to budget cuts due to decrease in funding" educator so what do I know.

Among the many issues with nclb.... kids in Special Education are expected to be able to meet that bar, and the bar for the districts goes up yearly. This law is in direct contradiction to the law that allows a child to enter special education services, the fact that they typically (yes we know there are exceptions in terms of social skills and behavior issue kinds of kiddos) are in special education because they are in the lowest of the percentile ranks, like 4th %ile and lower (general average here). If they could all meet those bars there would be no need for Special Education, haha. The mess was predicted from the beginning. Only those schools who dont have enough numbers to be able to count their Special Education. kids in the formula can make progress in that category. And those schools are generally not the good ones for Special Education. The ones that are taking the job on, having popular Special Education. programs which may attract more and more families to the school are getting penalized for their efforts. There are plans in the works to drastically stop this and re-think it. Predictions are that all schools will end up in non compliance unless they are a school that has no Special Education, no English as second language and no minority students. They do need to monitor to make sure all kids get the same chance, it is disturbing to see trends that show low income and minority students are not being able to keep up to the same level as others. But another issue is that kids are not counted in one category so for suburban areas for example, many of the "minority" kids are also ESL kids who of course can not do as well on standardized testing. There are just too many factors. Has to be a better way to monitor this. I agree, the theory was great, practice has been awful.

Was re-reading the sentence that schools used to do a mighty fine job... but in many places special needs kids were legally denied access to school and if in were not treated fairly so their lives were not counted in the school statistics. some things are worse but some things are much much better.
 

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
My biggest problem with NCLB (as a one-size-fits-all) is... districts are expected to improve every year.

So what happens to the districts that somehow are at the top? That cannot continue to improve? They get funding cuts.

The school I went to in elementary - before NCLB, of course - had about 20-25 kids per class. The teachers had enough time, not having to make the kids memorize stuff (teaching the test), that they could deal with the class in general, set up special stuff for the accelerated kids, and help the ones who needed it. Oh, did I mention we had 2 full-time classroom aides and random class mothers?

It comes back to funding. That school could afford to hire more people.

There was a girl in my 2nd-grade class who would be termed "severely mentally disabled" now - she got extra help, I remember only because the students also were tasked with helping her... 10 years later she was the salutatorian (that's the second highest right? I was nowhere near there!) of the class.

So. One size fits all swamps some, is skimpy for others, and doesn't fit the majority well at all.
 
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