Ugh Tough worrisome stuff with son

Discussion in 'Substance Abuse' started by toughlovin, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. toughlovin

    toughlovin Well-Known Member

    Ugh.... sometimes my son drives me nuts!! And there is a small amusing piece here too.... you have to see the funny stuff in this life we live. So yesterday my son called and told me he had an interview today with a bake shop..... great! I thought gosh he might like working at a bakery, he likes to cook. This morning he calls me upset because the program wont give him a ride to the interview...... to the vape shop..... I misheard him, not a bake shop a vape shop!!! Guess my hearing is going!!! Of course he likes the idea of working at a vape shop. OK I dont really have a big problem with nicotine at this point, I know he vapes so I said I would call the program. So I did.... and I talked to them. Well they had checked out the smoke shop and they do not support recovery and sell various products, including things that are used for things other than nicotine!!! OK fine nope, not a good place for my son to work so I totally support them not giving my son a ride to the interview. So I told my son that.

    Well of course then we got into both a text conversation and a phone conversation. Yada yada yada. All kinds of baloney. This is has passion. This is something he cares about. Knows about. Why do I have a problem with it... blah blah blah. F you... F the program. I basically told him I wasnt going to support him doing something that would encourage him using substances. He is an addict... he went on about how I think marijuania is a gateway drug but it can be used for medicinal purposes.... blah blah blah.... all true but I dont think for him he can use it moderately. We went round and round. The thing that really disturbed me is that he made it really clear that come march after he is off probation he has every intention of smoking weed and seems to believe it will not be a problem for him, seems to believe that I should think it should be ok because at least it is better than heroin. I did agree that yes smoking weed is better than using heroin but it would be better to use nothing and be clean... and he said well what if that is not an option and basically told me that for him that is not an option. I said why is that not an option and he said because he does not want it to be an option!!

    So basically we are back to my son being really stuck in his addiction... he may not be super actively using right at the moment because of probation but come March I think he will start smoking pot again... and I suspect that will take him pretty quickly downhilll pretty fast.

    In the text conversation at one point... he also talked about life not really being worth much... I think this was some manipulative talk to me but still pretty worrisome.

    On top of all that my daughter visited and I had breakfasta with her this morning before she left.... my son called me while I was with her. She talked about the bad memories of him at home, and that was one reason she didnt like coming home that much. Yuck. She was talking about us moving...... That is some of her stuff to work out but I sure didnt need to hear that too.

  2. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    Wash, rinse, repeat.

    You are worrying yourself to death and I get that. It's what we do. Your son is a grown man and he will do what he will do whether you like it or not. That is how they think.

    I would try to pull away from him as much as possible and focus on your own well being and do things for yourself. Your suffering won't change a hair on his head.

    I did that with my son until I saw him really TRY to change. I couldn't do it any longer. It was killing me. My husband communicated with him. I stopped all communication for some time.

    He is better and home now. He doesn't hold it against me. We haven't talked about it at all. I think he understands why I did what I did. It's okay for us to look out for ourselves. I don't know if we'll ever talk about it.

    I'm just trying to move forward. One thing my mother did that I have said I will never do and that is live in the past. That is how she lives her life. It caused her great misery. None of us can change the past.
  3. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Oh. This is funny. I followed down the same path as you, Tl. I was salivating.
    Well. Welcome to my world.
    Ditto. My son was channeling the same drivel today. I hate it.
  4. Smithmom

    Smithmom Active Member

    Sounds like a good program. Maybe best if you stay out of it? As in, sorry son you'll have to work that out with them. They must have some reason I don't know of. Just one less thing for him to blame on you.. and one more thing to detach from.
  5. Tired out

    Tired out Active Member

    I think I would have asked him, "Why do would you want to choose to put yourself in jeopardy? How about applying for some that your program with help you with? You are an adult. Be proactive for yourself."
    I keep telling my son (21 almost 22) when he complains or whines to me. If you don't like life, make it better. You are an adult and you can make the change.
  6. toughlovin

    toughlovin Well-Known Member

    Thank you RN for the reminder. I usually am pretty good about taking care of myself and living my life..... but every now and then I get really caught up in his stuff.... and today was definitely one of those days. You are right he is going to do whatever he is going to do. It is hard for me to step back but that is a good idea.... I will try to do that. And your reminder about not living in the past was really helpful in terms of my daughter....I have to remember we need to keep enjoying our lives now and she is in the process of enjoying her independence and part of that is the whole separating herself from home. I do remember when I was in my early 20s going home and getting so annoyed by my

    Copa..... the worries our sons put us through. It never ends does it. I just hate this drug addiction stuff but it is what it is.

    And Smith.... you are so right. I should have stayed out of it... and probably not even called but I did. The good thing in a way is it gave me a chance to let him know I back the programs decisions and also to be clear that I do not support him using any substances or going against things that make me uncomfortable. Heaven knows I have done that enough in the past. No more of that.

    And I forgot to tell you the piece that really kind of bugged me and really shows how immature my 27 year old kid is..... so one of the things he did to the program out of pure vindictiveness was he sent them on wild goose chase. Not only was he on the phone with me a bunch with me today but he was on the phone with them. He told them he did go on an interview of some sort and needed a ride home.... so they went to pick him up, then he called and told them, he got the wrong address and sent them to a different place.... oh and by the way he never really left his apartment!!! And of course who gets charged for all this running around?? It was his way of saying F you to all of us!! So completely childish!!!

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  7. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    This is not only childish it is mean. It is mean to the staff at the program and it is mean to you. This is not a 3 Stooges movie. If he has so much animus towards you and towards them the people that are basically holding him up in life by his arms, I don't really know what to say.

    My son jerks me around too, usually emotionally which is worse.

    I think this has got to stop. It is one thing to be enmeshed like I am. It is another thing to be abused.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  8. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    I am shocked that he pulled this childish trick on those who are helping him the most and giving him second chances where other programs dont.

    All I can say is ... I hope he apologizes sincerely and gets back on track.

    I am so sorry
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  9. toughlovin

    toughlovin Well-Known Member

    The sad thing is I am not shocked! He does this kind of stupid mean vindictive stuff when he is mad. My husband pointed out tonight this is what he must do in relationships too. He was once mad at us in hs and he went around and moved round all the furniture just to bug us. Its stupid but vindictive too. I am really feeling pretty disgusted with him tonight... and the sad thing is we are not more shocked. We were surprised because we were not expecting it but it was not out of character.
  10. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Well. This one makes me chuckle. Where does he come up with this stuff? Did he have to move it all back?

    He is ten years older now. What was a kid's prank is now pathetic. These sons of ours, do they not have a bottom line? Is there no shame? Have I given my son the message he can do or say anything and I will take it?
  11. toughlovin

    toughlovin Well-Known Member

    You know I dont remember what we did exactly. I think we may have laughed to ourselves and ignored him and left it alone until the next day. I have wondered at times have I not been tough enough or been too forgiving or too whatever for all the nutty stuff he has done. One good thing is that given this is a dual diagnosis program they are seeing some of his behavior besides his addiction that is a little bit out there.

    On the one hand at times he can seem to have such potential and other times I just hold very little hope. I guess bottom line is if he doesnt decide at some point to face his demons and really get and stay clean...he wont make it.
  12. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    He is still very young. Maturation for many young men does not occur until 28 to 30. I am still holding out some hope for my son.

    I think your son will stop being so self-destructive. I think the more likely outcome for our sons is mellowing out with not so many extremes. Not realizing their potential, but not so much doing themselves in. I think a lot of what they manifest is their personality. Not taking life seriously. I think that this is more widespread in their generation, than it was for me or you.

    I am to the point where if my son just went to the liver doctor, and found a way to stabilize his health, I could deal. Forget all of the other stuff. If he wants to sleep in a truck so be it. Except I know better. People don't stay living in trucks for ever. They have to choose. Either to fall down further or pick themselves up.
  13. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    So agree. Not sure what is wrong with these millennials!

    My son is freaked out that it cost him $40 today for gas and his tank wasn't even empty and gas is cheap here! That's what happens when you buy a Dodge Ram truck. Hello!

    I think the dual diagnosis thing is somewhat misleading because usually the mental problems they have are completely due to drug use. I've seen it in so many people. Even in the program our son was in, I was worried about that because he has anxiety and some depression. They said most do that use drugs and most do not have it anymore when they stop the drugs!

    Our bodies are all made of chemicals in reality. They put chemicals that don't belong into their bodies and what do we expect to happen really?
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  14. toughlovin

    toughlovin Well-Known Member

    I dont know. I think my son has been using drugs for a long time to deal with depression and anxiety and until he finds other ways to deal effectively with those emotions he is going to continue to have problems.... and I think he needs to really face some issues that cause him to use drugs. In a sense the drugs are the symptoms of the deeper issues. But the drugs are what will probably kill him. This vindictive behavior he has to some extent has been around for a long time.... and some of the behavior issues have been around before the drugs although certainly the drugs made it a lot worse. I think he would have grown out of a lot of it if the drugs hadn’t gotten in the way. Seriously today I just feel like telling him to grow up... be a man not a child!
  15. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    If you really have severe depression and anxiety (I had them all my life) you need psychiatric care. Both are partly medical problems and run in family DNA.

    Nothing makes both worse than substances. Thats why I would never even drink or smoke pot after trying. Alcohol is a depressant and pot can cause paranoia in vulnerable people like me. I can only imagine what harder drugs do to depression and anxiety. Its too bad that often one follows the other or also the drugs may trigger mental illness that did not exist before using.

    The best way to address those treatable mental health disorders are to quit using street drugs. That has to go first. I hope your son does come around. He has so much potential.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
  16. toughlovin

    toughlovin Well-Known Member

    He seems convinced at the moment that his depression is “situational” depression but I dont really buy it. Then yesterday he is talking to me about medicinal pot for anxiety. He has access to a psychiatrist but is not making good use of the services at the moment. He is so fristrating because he thinks he knows it all and knows best but his way is clearly not working!
  17. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    TL. There are similarities in our sons' behavior and M.O.

    Your son is testing limits all over the place, I think. But the bottom line he remains in the program and is doing what it takes to do so. This must scare him a lot so the limit testing. But he is staying. As yet he is resisting owning this as a choice. He is trying to make you the responsible party. Nobody knows more than he does how over the head he is. He knows better than anybody how he has blown it. All of this cockiness comes from his full awareness on some level that he is on shaky ground. He doth protest too much. He is spitting in the wind and it is all coming back to fly in his face. Don't let him rattle you.

    I am saying back to you another version of what you wrote to me on my thread.

    We want them to own their choices, to own their recovery, to own their responsibility. And this is what they resist with all their might. They want us to own all of it. There is no other way for us to do this right now. Your son is walking the walk, but he is not talking the talk. We need to put noise canceling earphones on so we do not hear the garbage talk.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
  18. Smithmom

    Smithmom Active Member

    In a way wonderful proof that what you have been saying all along about his behavior is true. We can tell docs, therapists, etc about ridiculous, manipulative behavior. They often think it reflects more on us than the kid that we would report these things. As in, its too unbelievable and ridiculous, parents are making it up. And then the kid does it to them! I love it!

    But they can't really diagnosis or treat until they see the depth of the illness. This behavior isn't depression or anxiety for sure.
  19. elizabrary

    elizabrary Active Member

    First I have to tell you that I told my son about the vape shop/bake shop mix up and he was beside himself with laughter. Also, my 28 year old daughter does nutty, spiteful stuff too. She is at about the maturity level of a 14 year old and she has a child- a 9 year old who is more focused and responsible than she is. She treats those who support her and want the best for her the worst. I've never understood it. She has been like this her whole life, and to be honest her dad is somewhat like that as well.

    I have had depression and anxiety most of my life. It takes not only psychiatric intervention and medication, but a lot of work to learn how to manage it and the ability to accept the ups and downs of it. For me it requires a ton of focus and commitment to work at keeping my brain on track. Our kids are not able to sustain that level of focus. They prefer to treat it quickly with drugs and/or alcohol. And toxic relationships. There are always underlying issues that are scary to address. I came from a home with lots of financial resources but suffered emotional and physical abuse. It was hard to really face that stuff and be able to objectively see that I am not the bad person my parents made me feel I was. Actually, I'm awesome. Interestingly, once I really saw the situation objectively and realized my parents made mistakes that weren't my fault I was able to let go of my much of my anger and sadness. After that things really flourished in my career.
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  20. toughlovin

    toughlovin Well-Known Member

    Good point about those noice cancelling earphones.... I definitely need to remember to put those on when the garbage talk starts. I get so sucked in sometimes.

    And you are so right about treating depression and anxiety with both drugs and toxic relationships... my son does that as well. I guess my biggest worry is that the drugs will get him before he decides to really address the underlying issues... he has had many chances to do so and I think he feels like he has tried but he has put up so many walls I dont think he really lets people in and so doesnt really go where he needs to go.... and the drugs are so scary these days and so dangerous. I think he thinks that once he is off probation he will be able to smoke pot and that will be enough.... but one of the guys in the program said that probably wont be enough for him and that is probably true. I dont think my son can do any of it moderately.... but all of it is out of my hands anyways.