Update and More Advice Please

[BusynMember]

It is not genetic or a fact that everyone continues trying to protect adult children. If we do, it is often more for us than for them and it ruins our lives.

I think most mothers, yes mothers, realize a time when it is no longer good to try to parent. If we have disabled adult children who will need help, we also need to find them resources and let go. We can't live forever. We can dearly love our adult children without the need to keep trying to parent them.

Not meaning to be harsh, but it is normal and natural to protect a child when he is young, But not to parent a grown man or woman. And they don't like it and won't let us anyway UNLESS they are helpless, either truly or have learned helplessness, and can get money and other sustaining factors from us.

I say this with a loving heart and good intentions. I certainly could be wrong.

 

[Albatross]

When I identified stages in women's recover, after the crisis stage and whatever came before it, ta da, came "letting go."

That is the step I have never allowed myself to get past.

All those years ago, do you think I discovered "detachment" somehow anticipating my very life, and the great need I would have 35 years later? Yet be unable to embrace?

Shame or hubris? She discovered detachment, yet lacked the integrity or strength to employ it in her own life.

Neither one, Copa, and it certainly doesn't reflect on our integrity or strength. I see it as just a warped sense of boundaries, a maladjustment in our relationship and our roles.

I think, too, that you have some extra layers to address as far as letting go. You knew going in that your son had some incredibly difficult challenges at birth, and you accepted the role of helping him overcome those challenges with your whole heart.

So much of your identity is and has been tied into that role. I see you almost as deciding you were going to save him, and now you feel you have not saved him completely, so you must have failed in your mission. Am I wrong about that?

We both are mired in guilt, I think, but for different reasons.

I came from the other end. The first 12 years were easy and close, then came the shock and guilt and confusion at how wrong it all went. I had no high expectations of myself or the outcome, until it all went off the rails and I was unable to get it (him, me, the family dynamic) back on track.

But it seems we both hold ourselves accountable for not having absolute control over another human being's choices (and a grown one at that).

We can dearly love our adult children without the need to keep trying to parent them.

SWOT, this gives me pause for thought. I can't say that I feel a need to try to parent him anymore; in fact, I feel exactly the opposite. I dread the phone ringing because I don't WANT to parent him anymore; he just keeps asking me to! What I would LIKE is to have a conversation that (a) wasn't him asking me to bail him out of some sort of trouble and (b) didn't degenerate into name-calling and animosity.

...continues trying to protect adult children. If we do, it is often more for us than for them and it ruins our lives.

So, my feelings and my deeds aren't matching up.

If I don't want to parent him anymore, why do I keep welcoming his feigned helplessness and engaging in the Alice-in-Wonderland conversations, knowing that I am going to feel 7 shades of crappy afterwards? It IS more for me than for him, and it IS ruining my life. So why don't I stop? What am I getting out of this?

That is something else for me to think about, SWOT. Thank you.

 

[Copabanana]

You knew going in that your son had some incredibly difficult challenges at birth, and you accepted the role of helping him overcome those challenges with your whole heart.

Thank you, Albatross.

I see you almost as deciding you were going to save him, and now you feel you have not saved him completely, so you must have failed in your mission. Am I wrong about that?

I do not know. It is not so much that I failed, I think it is more for me, as it is for you. I never expected a rose garden, but neither did you. You love your son, and I love my own.

I think that is the centrally difficult part, for me. That somebody I love so much, a relationship that was so redemptive for each of us and the two of us together has not delivered him to a place of contentment, flourishing, functioning.

As I write this I see the fantastical aspect embedded within this assumption or expectation: that my child-rearing, that your own would yield some result, would deliver some result, which could be good or bad or any other adjective, and that the absence of this result means anything at all. About us or our kids.

Life's meaning is not delivered or endowed. It is earned. Not even revealed or discovered, it is honed, refined. Belatedly I am learning this through study of my own faith.

I have been listening to the radio about Carrie Fisher, the writer/actress who died suddenly. There are so many remembrances of her that celebrate exactly this thing. Her suffering, her mental illness, addictions, losses, all of which she used to hone her own identity, create it, endow every scar with meaning.

Not my son or any other person can give my life it's meaning. That is my own to give. And my son, our sons have their own work.

 

[Lil]

I can't say that I feel a need to try to parent him anymore; in fact, I feel exactly the opposite. I dread the phone ringing because I don't WANT to parent him anymore; he just keeps asking me to! What I would LIKE is to have a conversation that (a) wasn't him asking me to bail him out of some sort of trouble and (b) didn't degenerate into name-calling and animosity.

THIS! This is me exactly. I've more than once had people say I want to take care of him, I want him home. NO!!! I really don't! I want him to be on his own and OKAY. I want him to call every now and then and tell me he's doing alright. I don't want him to complain about money and beat around the bush until I finally just say, "Fine! I'll send you something." I don't want him to whine about the life he has made for himself being hard. Of course it's hard! That's what happens when you're homeless. Yes...one of those conversations happened just today. He's thinking about coming home. I don't actually want him home. I just want him to be okay.

I do have a very hard time telling him no. I have a hard time saying, "Freeze. You brought it on yourself." I don't want him hungry and I don't want him cold. But I don't know what to do to make that better - or how to sit back and do nothing, hoping he can make that better all by himself. When is a small gift to help them through a hard time enabling instead of assisting? At what point does a hand-up turn into a hand-out?

I wish I could tell.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Hello, Everyone

I think I have two valid skillsets to add. The first is about how we think about letting go. Letting go implies that we are taking a step back. When my kids are in crisis to this day, I cannot just tell myself I am stepping back. But I can teach myself to let go...of outcome. I can teach myself that I have done everything I am willing to do. Then, my job is to let go of outcome. When my thoughts circle, I remind myself to let go, not of stress or worry over what is, but over outcome. It's a very small change in the way I think, but a crucial one. Letting go of outcome reminds me that I have responded with my best, and that the child will do what he does. It's a subtle, but lifrsaving difference in perspective.

The second skill we must teach ourselves is compassion for ourselves. No one could imagine the horror of a child on the streets. Yet, we expect ourselves to buck up to it, to be tough enough to practice our detachment skills and stop suffering. That's impossible. We do suffer. Self compassion feels wrong because we are consumed with finding the solution. If we can learn to hear our own suffering and coldly decide to comfort ourselves whether we feel we deserve our own deep compassion or not, things slowly change for us. We begin to see our own bravery. We acknowledge the depth of our feelings for our children and the fear we feel for them and for ourselves.

I care very much for each of you. I wish I could know how to help. It does get better. You will survive this time.

Cedar

 

[Ironbutterfly]

THIS! This is me exactly. I've more than once had people say I want to take care of him, I want him home. NO!!! I really don't! I want him to be on his own and OKAY. I want him to call every now and then and tell me he's doing alright. I don't want him to complain about money and beat around the bush until I finally just say, "Fine! I'll send you something." I don't want him to whine about the life he has made for himself being hard. Of course it's hard! That's what happens when you're homeless. Yes...one of those conversations happened just today. He's thinking about coming home. I don't actually want him home. I just want him to be okay.

I do have a very hard time telling him no. I have a hard time saying, "Freeze. You brought it on yourself." I don't want him hungry and I don't want him cold. But I don't know what to do to make that better - or how to sit back and do nothing, hoping he can make that better all by himself. When is a small gift to help them through a hard time enabling instead of assisting? At what point does a hand-up turn into a hand-out?

I wish I could tell.

If you see he is trying to change his life and life throws a curve ball, you help temporarily. However, if it is constant call for help and you are not seeing any progress on his end, that it is just a repeat of the previous day or week, then you say FREEZE. I love you and I am sure you will figure out a way to get pass this new problem.

I recently had to do this my own son who was doing well but back-slid and moved out of his safe home because he wanted to live with an old friend who had used him in the past but he was just so much fun. Well he learned the hard way when that friend suckered him out of his rent money and left him high and dry. Son called and told me he moved back. Great. But he had no clothes he left everything at the friends place. I bought him clothes. Then he called just other day and wondered if I was sending money for his birthday, day after xmas. I said no, I spend money on new clothes and that is all I am doing for you. You need to remember your decision to move and that it has reprecussions. He said but it's my birthday, I want to see a movie. I said oh well, when you get your check next month, go to a movie.

He was mad but called next day and apologized for making such a bad decision and he understood why I wouldn't send him money.

 

[Lil]

If you see he is trying to change his life and life throws a curve ball, you help temporarily. However, if it is constant call for help and you are not seeing any progress on his end, that it is just a repeat of the previous day or week, then you say FREEZE. I love you and I am sure you will figure out a way to get pass this new problem.

The problems arise when you think you see progress...but later you find reason to question whether anything is true or whether he's just been lying.

 

[BusynMember]

The problems arise when you think you see progress...but later you find reason to question whether anything is true or whether he's just been lying.

A hand up to me leads to meaningful progress after the help. A hand out to me is no serious progress (maybe a weak attempt to pretend there is work being done on his part but its not his fault that there are no jobs) and renewal of demanding more help. A hand up is one time, not twenty.

 

[Tanya M]

When is a small gift to help them through a hard time enabling instead of assisting? At what point does a hand-up turn into a hand-out?

For me, enabling is doing for them in which they should be doing for themselves. For the most part it's black and white, BUT, there is always that gray area.
Of course our adult children should be doing for themselves and yet they don't. Just as we have jobs and pay our own bills so should they. I cannot even begin to comprehend what it's like to live the way my son lives, wondering, couch surfing, living in the woods, etc.... and yet this is his life. It's a life that HE has chosen for himself. I am far enough down this road with him that I have no problem telling him no if he asks for money, however, that does not mean that my heart doesn't break. I have been in this cycle with my son for so many years I know how it will go.
This year, I did send my son some money for Christmas. I have not done that for several years. I knew by doing this I could be opening the door for him to start "asking" again. I will still tell him no, that I'm not in a position to help him.

I've said it many times, each of us can only do what we are comfortable doing. While our journey's are very similar they are also very unique.
It also depends what "stage" we are at in our journey. As I said, I've been doing this for many years. My son will be 34 soon.

I think each time we "help" them we have that hope that "this time" they will turn it around.

So, we ride the merry-go-round, sometime jumping off to let the world settle and then we jump back on. As time goes on our rides become shorter and time off the merry-go-round grows longer.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

The problems arise when you think you see progress...but later you find reason to question whether anything is true or whether he's just been lying.

So true, I have been burned quite a few times with my Difficult Child who tends lie 50% of the time. It's hard to discern at times and sometimes my gut just tells me you are full of rap (Difficult Child is I mean). It's a struggle.

 

[Lil]

I don't mind the occasional hand - buying boots so he can work, etc. But I'm starting to suspect that he's lying about everything. There's lots of little things that are making me suspicious. The most recent is that every call and message is done over the internet. Not through his wireless carrier...that I'VE been paying for. So he has unlimited talk and text and limited data...but he's making wifi calls. Why?

Edit:
AAANNNDD ... Never mind. I sent him a message telling him to call on the regular phone and I wasn't paying for it if he was never going to use it and it took a bit but he called. Didn't know what I was talking about. Said the phone had died...but that we were on messenger and it was just easier to hit the phone button at the top of the screen and make a wifi call than to get out of messenger and dial the regular phone. Completely logical and while I've never done it from messenger (because I really don't like the sound quality on wifi) I do it all the time from texts.

It really sucks to be so untrusting that you have thoughts like "Oh he sold the phone" for NO REASON other than you get a call by wifi instead of on the wireless carrier.

 

[Lil]

Albie - I'm sorry....I've hijacked your thread.

 

[Mamacat]

The problems arise when you think you see progress...but later you find reason to question whether anything is true or
whether he's just been lying.

Same thing happens to me. She left the abuser for the umpteenth time. Everytime she leaves, I think okay, this is it. Now she's moving forward. Well, this particular time she needed a car. She had asked me about 2 months previously. I said no because she was still with abuser. She got mad said horrible things to me and didn't let me see my granddaughters for about 2 months. Then I wrote my amends as part of CODA 12 steps and all was fine again. That should have been a clue. But no.....fast forward and she's left abuser again this time with promises of getting a good job. She's a college grad. So I sold her my car, the end of march. To date ,I've received $200 from a $4,000 tax refund. So, did she lie? Did she have good intentions at the moment? Someone told me I keep trying to think rationally about an irrational person. Now she doesn't speak to me again because I said no to her recent request. Plus she moved out of state and abuser moved there also. I'm praying for help to let go. I just never thought she'd lie to me, but I was wrong.

 

[Tanya M]

Someone told me I keep trying to think rationally about an irrational person.

What a great statement and it's so true!!

I just never thought she'd lie to me, but I was wrong.

I think every parent here has thought the same thing. My saying with my son is "if his lips are moving, he's lying"
It's just so sad that I have to discern what I can and can't believe from him.