Update to Son asking to tie me up

totoro

Mom? What's a difficult child?
I am sorry for what happened to you.
But in your first posts about a year ago, you kept asking for *graphic* details about tying someone up.
Now you are focusing on details about how to get untied from being tied up.
I think the focus should be on your child and family, not the act of being tied up or not.
JMO
 

learner

New Member
Agreed that that should be the topic the family and children, but what I was asking a year ago, as I reiterated mostly seem to be for self defense sake, if God forbid it has happened to someone else, whether it was really a fun and game or something else, I think maybe it is reliving it, but to the point of it not being as bad, if God forbid it happens, then instead of panicking, I'll know what to do.
 

klmno

Active Member
Learner, I know you are not intentionally doing this, but focusing on what to do next time is letting yourself get caught up in his sick game. You need to be figuring out how to make sure that there is no next time. I am sorry to hear that your daughter had to leave her home, instead of your son.

Look at my situation, I am trying to get my son in an Residential Treatment Center (RTC) or extensive services in place if he comes back home. That will have to include a crisis plan and available in-home interventions. BUT- what would you say to me if I wasn't seekiing additional assitance and just said that his regular outpatient therapist appts were enough, please just advise me on how to get away from him the next time he has two knives in my face?

If you thought what he's getting fro treatment now is sufficient, you wouldn't be asking that question. And,. I think BBK has a point. As horrid of an experience this was for you (and you might have some PTSD going on), it is a big red flag that I don't think you should ignore. I hope you never need to explain to anyone that you knew that your son wanted to do things like that but didn't make every effort to address it before someone else gets seriously hurt. I would bet whatever little I have left that if he isn't already fantasizing about doing more, he will get to that point without serious, extensive treatment that is specific for this type of problem. Look at this as an opportunity to stop him before this gets worse..
 

DDD

Well-Known Member
There are not many family issues that I feel uncomfortable addressing after almost fifty years of ongoing parenting. Learner...your post makes me fearful for your safety. Over the years I have adapted to coping with abnormal behaviors as a necessity in family survival BUT I think you may be focusing on "coping" when there is valid reason to be concerned about "survival".

Your question had to do with suggestions. Here are the only suggestions I can think of for you. Sign up with one of the medical alert companies that specialize in emergency response for the ill and elderly. I think one of them is called Life Alert. You can wear a neclace or a braclet with an emergency button that triggers a central calling system to contact you (not a family member) and then sends 911 responders. If you kept that necklace on at all times...perhaps you would have an element of safety.

Please.....call the local Women's Shelter or Safety Shelter for abused spouses. You can speak anonymously to them. Explain that you have been abused by an unstable son who continues to live with you. Ask them for a referral to an expert in abuse prevention. Seek counsel from people who deal with mental health issues on a daily basis.

I understand you love your son. I understand you hope that he has learned hs lesson. I understand that a Mother's heart can be broken and that a Mom still feels the need to protect their child. BUT when it comes to violent acts....the Mother has to protect herself and her other family members first, and then work to help her dysfunctional child. Please find the right people to talk to about this. We all care and want to support you but in addition to coming to the CD family you really, really need to seek professional help for you. Many hugs and prayers coming your way. DDD
 

susiestar

Roll With It
Learner,

I am so sorry you have to deal with this. But I agree with the others. Until your son has had a LOT of INPATIENT therapy, it is not safe to have him at home. Not safe for you, for anyone who's house he may go over to or decide to go in.

Having fantasies about tying someone up for several years, and then actually tying your mother up with-o her consent and thinking it funny and leaving her alone for long periods of time is a HUGE RED FLAG that he NEEDS intensive help. Much more help than can be done outpatient.

You should have sent HIM to his fathers home - fathers have a degree of authority, and your son may only fantasize about tying up women. You truly NEED to refuse to live with him in your home. He needs an Residential Treatment Center (RTC) or other inpatient therapeautic setting. Kids with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) (I have one) do NOT just "get over" their obsessions with-o a LOT of help. And we found it took far more help than even the most intensive in-home therapy could provide.

Get that life alert necklace, but be aware he may take it off of you. I would be willing to be that if he has tried tying you up he has tried it on someone smaller and weaker than you. I am also willing to bet he will try it again, and that it won't have an outcome as positive as this one (where you were eventually able to get help and get away).

I am sorry. I will be praying for you.
 

Rotsne

Banned
An important lesson for him would be to learn about the feelings of others and especially how it is to be tied up.

His problem is that he doesn't seek consent from however he wants to involve in his fantasies. It would get him in deep trouble sooner or later. Is his lack of understanding how other people feel general or is it only when it comes to outlive his fantasies.

Here in Denmark communities where they outlive fantasies in that area recommend that the person who is the dominating partner try being the person being dominated. Just this week it was revealed that a well known actor had purchased personal services for her son because the son, who suffers various conduct disoders had problems when approaching people.

Second of all it is a fact that nursing homes with the relatives approval see to that certain of the more senile residents have outsider coming in and deliver certain services when the residents behave in an inappropriate way towards the staff.

Maybe he needs to be taught about how adults who outlive these I must say rather wierd fantasies. Is there such a community in the neighborhood who could help him with his fantasies? (of course not intercourses etc. - only the tie-up / blindfolding part)

Second of all until he realize that he has to put himself in his "partners" shoes and get a consent before he starts I dont feel that your house is the best choice for him to live in. As I can understand, your household consist only of his sister and you. He needs a male rolemodel and your house a physical stronger person to control him, if he forgets himself.

It is simply a question of security. Can he stay at some family where they can control him until his level of empathy is increased?
 

klmno

Active Member
Not to diminish anyone else's opinion on the board, but I do not think that having someone tie him up and leave him is an appropriate intervention or treatment for him, if that is what is being suggested.
 

learner

New Member
I agree with the last statement, probably not the best. I understand what the idea was to put him in someone else's shoes so he can see how it is. I do appreciate every ones opinion though and have read over the reactions. I am going to look into everything that was said regarding the medical necklace thing, as well as more extensive therapy. And the other poster was correct about focusing on family and everything. THis isn't the worst thing that could happen, but not saying it wasn't good. My one dread is of what may have happened had he tickled my feet, don't know how i would have handled that, but that is in the past, more expensive outpatient therapy will be in the future, and I think everyone is right when you say he may thank me someday.
 

Rotsne

Banned
Not to diminish anyone else's opinion on the board, but I do not think that having someone tie him up and leave him is an appropriate intervention or treatment for him, if that is what is being suggested.

Of course not just by forcing him into the situation. It would violate him as his victim was that is not what the purpose should be. It should be done with a conversation talking about every step about the psychology about engaging in such "games". He needs to understand the value of stopwords and take no for a no.

Generally we should always respect when a person says no even if we think that this individual could benefit from our intervention. A lot of the confrontation therapy used in modern therapy can be compared with acts in this kind of personal relationship. It is about pushing borders at a certain person. A lot of people have been hurt because a "Stopword" was not respected by the therapist or the group in group therapy.

At an international known residential treatment center in Mexico, which closed in 2004 they called a 12 year old girl "****" because they wanted to force her out of the victim role caused by abuse by the girls father. Could this benefit the girl? I dont think so.

We can imaging a number of situations where we should consider the mindset of the client.

What are a person thinking when he is standing on a table being told just to fall back in a belief that someone are there to catch him? What are a person thinking when a therapist orders a gorge jumping into a dark lake? Have any participated in high rope courses where all is about moving borders?

Her son failed to listen to his victim. While it is inappropriate to force himself on a family member the next girl could be one down the street. He needs to be pushed and say no and learn that people listen because they can understand his feelings. How is he going to understand this unless he is put in a situation where he is forced to say no and learn how it benefits him when people listen to him?
 

klmno

Active Member
Learner, I don''t want to bombard you- I know it's a tough and hurtful situation too be in. It took me several weeks to figure out what to do about my son- others here can vouch for that and you can look at my threads over the past few weeks. It is hard. But, I finally came to 3 conclusions-

1) this isn't getting better on its own- it's getting worse
2) if my son kills me, he has no one left to fight for him as he spends the rest of his life in God knows what kind of mental state, behind bars or otherwise locked up
3) if I found a weapon in his room and a hit list for people at school, I would be devastated, but if I ignored it, how many lives would be ruined? If I took action then, at least whatever consequences, extensive therapy, etc, were needed, it definitely wouldn't be as bad as living with the fact that I didn't stop things from getting worse. I think our situations are similar to that scenario.
 
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BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I'm with Janet and klmno on this one. My mommy heart hurts for you, but you are in danger from this child that you love (something that I can only imagine and is so sad). This is not a fantasy or a game, he is 16, big, and he acted on it and for all you know he has tied up kids in the neighborhood or WILL later on. He could end up in jail for years and years. If this were my child, as hard as it would be, he would not be walking the streets, for everyone's sake including his own. He took it a step too far and acted on it so it is no longer a twisted fantasy. It is a reality, something he is capable of doing. And you can't know if he is capable of more. Nobody can, which is why he needs in my opinion 24/7 help and observation. He's still young. I would want him to have it all.

If he were mine, he would not be near me. Not only do you need to be alive to advocate for this child, but you have a daughter who needs you to be alive and well and is at risk from her brother. This child would not be in my home ever again, although I would support and love him through his therapy. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) in my opinion doesn't even begin to cover this.

Obviously you must make this decision for yourself. I hope you decide to keep everyone safe, and I send you my good vibes and thoughts and hope for a better future.
 

klmno

Active Member
Rotsne- no offense, but I'm not sure I understand you. Your ideas sound in the same league as the very methods that you posted about before that had been used in Residential Treatment Center (RTC)'s that have since been shut down, and at least one other member here was very concerned about that. Do you just research stories of behavior modifications used in different countries that end up published in newspapers? If someone tried to teach my son a lesson by putting knives in his face and called it therapuetic treatment, whether they considered it a game or not, or whether or not they were telling him it was a game, I would have one he**-uv-a fit over it. Violence begets more violence. Period.

Teens who are doing this sort of thing are not doing it because they don't know right from wrong and I doubt very seriously that learner's son, or my son, thought we wanted "to play that game"..
 
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BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Look, our Residential Treatment Center (RTC)'s have been lifesavers here in the US, and I think most of us know that. This child needs that kind of intensive help. This in my opinion is not the time for a lecture on RTCs from somebody who has never seen one in the US. This child needs a lot more help in my opinion than he can get at home. I will agree to disagree with Rotsne's rather extreme dismissal of all RTCs as abusive and I still recommend one. You can look around and see which one seems like a good fit for you son. This child is ill, not clueless. He needs help and compassion, not a hard lesson that tying somebody up is the wrong thing to do. He knows it, but he obviously couldn't control himself.
In all fairness, Rotsne, you do not know what it is like to have a violent child who can not control himself so it is hard for you to share your experiences and being from a while other culture makes it difficult as well. JMO
 

susiestar

Roll With It
I think an extended psychiatric hospital stay or Residential Treatment Center (RTC) stay would be an excellent idea. No matter how expensive the outpatient therapy, it won't make your home safe. And if your son ends up tying you up and hurting you, he will have to live with the guilt for the rest of his life. If he ties you up and ends up killing you he will not only have to live with the guilt, he will not have you to advocate for him or find help for him. Chances are he would rot behind bars with-o getting any of the help he needs.

I think the idea of having someone tie up your son to show him what it is about is the worst idea I have ever heard of.

Rotsne, you have no idea what goes on here in the US. Many of us have freely said we don't know what goes on in your country and we have tried to be supportive of you. But the things you say are HURTFUL. And some suggestions, like having someone tie up this child, are downright dangerous. You have NO CLUE what goes on in RTCs and psychiatric hospitals here in the US.

While there may be some parts of the US who engage in domination, some people in the US, it certainly is NOT mainstream and it is NOT what learner wants to teach her son.

Learner, get that alarm necklace, and do everything you can to have your son placed out of your home, even if it ends up beign in a group home. You simply MUST be safe.

If you doubt that this is serious, go to a domestic violence shelter and speak with a therapist there. They can help you see how serious this is, and how dangerous this is. I would be willing to bet $$ that your son has tied up other people, and that he is building up to tying up you again.

I am so sorry.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
From what I understand from what has been said, he is receiving treament, as a result of what he has done. It certainly does seem to me that what he did has definitely triggered appropriate alarms and made sure he is getting help.

When this sort of thing happens, a judgement call has to be made as to what is te appropriate response. If we weren't there, we can't say whether the right call has been made. All we have to go on, is learner's own feelings in the matter. And the vibe I get, learner, is that you are glad that your son is getting what seems to be the right help and that charging him wouldn't have necessarily achieved anything constructive for him.

You've done the right thing in getting your daughter to a place where she can be safe. But you do still seem to have some concerns for your own safety, at least so far as wanting tips on how to better get out of a situation like this should it happen again.

Several things worry me about this:

1) You COULD choose to study the techniques used by Houdini, and become an escape expert. But if he did this again and you got out of his knots, this would only up the ante. You being able to escape, is not the answer. However, I do understand why you want this knowledge - you don't ever want to be in such a helpless condition again, this is part of your own recovery, to make yourself safe in your own mind. But frankly, the best way for you to feel empowered once more, is to get to the root of the trouble - find out why he did this, and fix it. I suspect you feel that so far, you're not there yet.

2) He knew you didn't want him to do this, plus as he was doing this you make it clear you didn't enjoy it, didn't want it and that it was wrong, but he kept going. He went back and forth, he seemed comfortable with what he was doing to you in the face of your continued requests for him to stop. You were crying, he didn't want to hear it, so he gagged you - that is NOT the response of someone who just wants to see what it would be like to watch someone he's tied up, for a game. That is when it went a long way away from ever being a game. He was getting some other bizarre "kick" out of doing this, and I think it goes way, way beyond Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD).

I do think getting the alarm is a really good idea. But I think, for peace of mind and to regain your own sense of control of the situation, you need belts and braces. So get te alarm, wear it UNDER your clothing (so he won't see it obviously and remember to remove it). At the same time, set up a daily (or twice daily) alarm system with a friend or even the local police. A lot of neighbourhoods have this sort of thing, for elderly folk maybe, or frail. They arrange a signal, such as a phone call to a friend at a set time, or opening the curtains in a certain way. The phone call needs to be made at the same time and to te same person, so that if the call doesn't come, they will alert someone to go check on you to see if you're alright. YOu can also put signals in place in a similarway. The signal can be a positive signal, so if he's behaving oddly you open the blinds in a particular way, for example. Or a negative signal, so opening the blinds is what you normally do, but your failure to do this alerts someone.

Talk to the local shelters, they will have tips. Also talk to the police, see what ideas they have. Talk to orgnaisations tat deal with the frail aged. We have a system here called Neighbourhood Watch, they have ideas like this.

YOu may never need any of this, it migt all be completely unnecessary. But if it gives you peace of mind to put it in place, then it is worth any inconvenience. And I think that is what you're wanting here - peace of mind.

I had a really rough time during pregnancy with difficult child 3, during his delivery, and afterwards. There were a number of problems all contributing, including the worst bushfires in over a hundred years. For years afterwards, the sight of fires on TV (or in reality) or documentaries (or even news stories) dealing with either bushfires, or childbirth, would have my in floods of panicked tears. I had to find my own way of dealing with it. Part of my own methods were what I would do if I was ever in that situation again. I had to role-play it over and over, until I had rewritten events to a happier and more empowered conclusion. THis, despite the fact that I had made darn sure I would never, ever have another baby and so would never have a chance of being in that same situaiton, ever again.

Sometimes it doesn't matter how sure you are that you are now safe. You still want to know even more, how to regain your sense of empowerment.

And you always will have to consider - have we finally stopped him? Or not?

Only you can answer that one, we shouldn't try to second-guess.

Stay safe. Sorry you went through this. It is so hard sometimes, when our children hurt us.

Marg
 

DazedandConfused

Well-Known Member
Learner,

I wanted to offer my support to you. In all honesty, your post gave me chills. This is gravely serious and miles beyond outpatient therapy. He's been fantasizing about doing this for a long time and now demonstrated that he is capable of acting it out. That he chose to act it out with you, his mother, his caretaker and nurturer, has bells and sirens going off in my head. He bound, gagged, and left you!

In general, when our difficult children become violent, it is usually an unplanned impulse to lash out done in a fit of rage. It's the carefully thought out nature of this is what has me frightened for you and perhaps others in the future.



THis isn't the worst thing that could happen, but not saying it wasn't good.

There's almost always something "worse" that could happen. You think you're going to be his only victim? At this point, you have simply slowed the ever-looping thoughts in his head. Unabated without intensive inpatient therapy, there WILL be a next time. I would also be concerned about the tickling because especially for people that are sensitive, it's a form of torture.

Get the alarm, but more importantly, DO NOT have him live at home. I'm so sorry. To have your own child transgress against you in such a way is devastating.
 

Steely

Active Member
Ummm.........have not been on the board for a bit. But I gotta ask, is this whole post for real????
I mean, I want to be supportive - but learner your original post asks what to do next time?????
Really?
There should never be a next time. You are responsible for making that happen. There should never, ever be a next time.

And rotsne.........well............once again, you scare me. You have no idea how many sleepless nights I have spent worrying about the fears you placed in me about where my son is. You have no voice to talk about what you have not experienced first hand. None, so please stop.

Mental illness is one thing - but learner putting him on Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) medications for something as serious as what he has going on will not do the trick. He is really, really sick - and he need intensive, immediate, inpatient help before he hurts someone else.

Sorry, I am sure I sound harsh - but this board is about helping our mentally ill children - not about how to "untie" ourselves if they hurt us again. You must intervene immediately - and not wait until someone else is a victim.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
Learner,

There is one thing I don't think has been stressed enough here. And I may be totally wrong. But I doubt it.

If your son has been so bold as to tie you up with-o your permission, and with you begging him to stop, to gag you to keep you from begging, and to then leave you for an extended period of time (an hour), then to come back and threaten to torture you (tickling can be torture to some people), and then left you alone in the house, tied and gagged, then you have another thing to worry about.

Who else has he done this to? Because I sincerely doubt that you were the first person he tied up. You are at least somewhat of an authority figure to your son. You also would NOT be the first target of his curiosity, as this does have some sexual tones to it (domination).

So has he tied your daughter up and threatened her not to tell anyone? Or tied up a neighbor child, or an elderly person in your neighborhood? A classmate? A girl he took on a date and got to a private place?

I honestly think it extremely unlikely that eh chose YOU, his MOM, to act out this fantasy on first. Chances are he picked someone he could control much easier through being larger and stronger and through threats.

He also left you for an hour, and then left you alone in the house. This shows a degree of confidence that you couldn't get out. If this was his first time tying up someone he would not have that degree of confidence.

So you need to think about who else he has victimized, and who he is likely to victimize in the future. Since he was successful at tying you up and gagging you, and keeping you tied up for over an hour, he isn't going to just stop with some therapy.

He truly NEEDS a placement somewhere that can help him stop this fantasy AND keep him from doing it again. Someplace that can protect the rest of the community from him.

I am so sorry. I KNOW it hurts to hear this about your son. And I KNOW how hard it can be to find help for this. But unless you find some kind of help, this will only escalate.
 
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