Well, its finally his day in court

[in a daze]

He's a first time offender. She has indicated that this is the last time she will do this. He has a chance to turn his life around without a criminal record holding him back.

I do understand that many times we need to be very firm in our boundaries, very black and white in our thinking. I have had to do this many times, against my natural inclinations. But sometimes we have to weigh the real life implications of our decisions. And we can live with ourselves when we are positive that we have given them every chance in the world if they screw up again and we have to tell them no.

 

[pasajes4]

Apparently, I'm not supposed to say such things, because he already knows, I've said them before and I don't have to repeat myself....like I didn't have to repeat myself about looking decent for court. Which I did...but it did no good.

This is my son's litany.

 

[Jabberwockey]

but if you want to be obtuse, there you are.

Is there any particular reason you feel the need to keep needling us about not being far enough along in detaching from our son to suit you? Because to be perfectly honest, its starting to piss me off.

 

[InsaneCdn]

@Nikimoto - Jabber and Lil are actually doing a good job of learning to shut off the "gravy" as you call it. This legal representation issue, well, I don't call that gravy.

 

[Echolette]

Lil and Jabber,

One of the great things about this forum is getting to hear a lot of different points of view, from a lot of different people at different points in their journey. If we post only in the hopes of getting pats on the back, or murmurs of sympathy and pity, we miss an opprotunity to listen and hear. Much as it stings me when I hear a note of disagreement about some of my actions, it still opens my eyes to the idea that there are other paths I could be choosing..whether I choose to do so or not. Try to stay open and hear that most of the comments made here are from people with empathy and open hearts.

Echo

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

None of us knows how he or she will handle a child's self destruction until it happens and keeps happening. We can read all the theory we want to, we can hold degrees in counseling or psychiatry. When it is your child, each parent will have to run that gauntlet alone. That we love them means we are vulnerable to them in a way we are not even vulnerable to ourselves or our mates.

We hope for and believe in them because the alternative is unthinkable.

Initially, the alternative is unthinkable.

And then, there is sadness, and a kind of sole survivor aloneness, and a weird kind of freedom from the immediacy of the pain of what is.

That is what happened to me.

Cedar

 

[Lil]

I would never defend or pay for defense of my adult child should he cause legal trouble, so it's hard for me to read your struggles while it seems he feels entitled to all of your free help.

I wasn't being obtuse. I was being passive-aggressive, which is never appropriate so for that I apologize. Now, I'll be direct. You weren't participating on the board when we made this decision, which was very hard for me. I agonized over the right thing to do. In the end I felt helping was the right call at the time. It's done. Criticizing me after the fact for arranging a plea bargain, is not helpful. Nor is going on and on about how you'd do it differently.

I had friend back when my elder kids were little who was constantly bailing her one daughter out of jail, watching her kids, buying her stuff, it never ended.

Have we don't this? No.

Let alone his former vandalism and theft from our house, he simply isn't welcome here 'at this time'.

And neither is mine.

Also, whenever Evan attempts to threaten or otherwise blackmail me with ideas of my being a bad mom, I refuse to buy into his deranged tactics, and I refuse to jump through his hoops.

Actually, my son has never once blamed anything on us. He has never said we were bad parents. He has, in fact, taken all the blame. Granted, it doesn't change him, but he does at least acknowledge that he has brought all the problems on himself.

But what I see is a grown man conning his parents into continued enabling. You have the right to shut off the gravy.

You don't really know the whole story and I think if you did you might feel differently. Or maybe not. But there is no conning. That indicates we have some illusions about him. We don't. We're sad and hurt and worried, but we know perfectly well what he's done. We put him out in October. He was in a homeless shelter for nearly three months. He had the clothes on his back and a few items that were his that he sold. We don't have family to help him and he doesn't have friends to help him. He's on his own. Other than arranging a plea, the only thing we've done is buy him a few groceries - very few - and co-sign this apartment - when we thought he was going to keep working and pay the rent. I don't see gravy, I see giving him the ability to live and a chance to change.

 

[Lil]

Much as it stings me when I hear a note of disagreement about some of my actions, it still opens my eyes to the idea that there are other paths I could be choosing..whether I choose to do so or not. Try to stay open and hear that most of the comments made here are from people with empathy and open hearts.

I've said before, we all have to remember that we're all different and have different experiences coloring our viewpoints. Hard as it is sometimes, we have to try to not take it personally...I'm working on it. I admit that I find that difficult at times.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

And for the record, the ONLY reason we are paying his rent right now is to protect my credit since I had to co-signed for the apartment.

You did nothing wrong.

Winning, when we have children who are self-destructing, is about being able to do what needs to be done and being able to look into our own eyes in the mirror if we lose them, if they die or are disfigured or sustain brain damage (and it does happen) because we are doing what needs to be done.

You had to try.

You think you had an option. You stuck to your guns admirably and well until freezing temps hit. There comes a point when it gets to be about our own humanity. It takes a long time to be able to send someone we love away with nothing in the winter.

A long time.

Those who say it was easy are not telling the truth.

It is like living in Hell, either way.

He had a job. It was nights and he got kicked out of the shelter so he had nowhere to sleep in the daytime. He was finally working and the thought was he would sleep there days, work nights, pay his bills, hopefully straighten up once he was away from J-2. Of course, four days later he got arrested and within a month or so he was out of a job. So...yeah.

You did nothing wrong.

You did everything right, and it was hard for you. I remember the struggle, the horror of the cold, the incredible relief of knowing he was protected from the elements, the disappointment as he continued doing what he had always done.

It is the situation that is bad.

Not you, not your son.

There is no villain, here.

You are learning quickly and well, and the things your son is presenting you with are very hard to see and accept. There is a sense of disbelief. I remember that.
I still get tripped sometimes, by what has happened to all of us.

I am learning to let go of the guilt of it, and some of the horror of the things that have happened.

Cedar

 

[Childofmine]

We are all at different points on our own journeys. Some of us have been "at this" for years, and some of us are just getting into the pain, chaos, grief, drama of it all.

I see myself, even now that I am an "old hand" at this (lol), be inconsistent in the way I respond.

Here's hoping we can be compassionate with each other, and realize that often, when we are writing here on this forum, we are also talking to ourselves.

 

[SuZir]

None of us have a right answers on how to deal with our adult (or minor) kids. Most of us are trying to find, or have already found, a way that somewhat works for us. Somewhat minimizes the damage to us and our loved ones. But we are different people, our troubled children are different people, our life situations, resources available to us and so on differ. We can give opinions and others may get some insight from those, but we do not have answers to other people's situations and we shouldn't write like we had.

If there would be some magic way, that would make us happy (and maybe even help our kids), that would be nice, but I haven't noticed anyone here would have obtained something like that.

EDIT: CoM mentioned we are on different points of our journeys. That is true. It is also important to remember that those journeys, nor the destinations they lead, are not the same either. We can't say, that now you are there, but wait ten years and you will be where I'm now. Some cases that may happen, in many others it does not. Different people, different issues, different lives, different journeys.

 

[DoneDad]

A few times I made the mistake of telling someone at work about Difficult Child. The response was always something along the lines of "if that was my kid he/she wouldn't be doing that. I would never allow it."

Yea, that's what I'm doing, allowing it.

I learned that non Difficult Child parents / family members don't have a clue. If you haven't walked a mile in my moccasins you don't know what you're talking about.

Lil and Jab are doing the best they can in a horrible situation, like all of us here are. I doubt if it's helpful for people on here to be second guessing them or giving them the "if that were my kid I wouldn't let that happen." B T D T and got the T shirt.

 

[Jabberwockey]

A few times I made the mistake of telling someone at work about Difficult Child. The response was always something along the lines of "if that was my kid he/she wouldn't be doing that. I would never allow it."

I work in a prison. Funny thing is, MOST employees here either have that type of child or have dealt with it through a family member so its not that big of a deal to talk about it, although I tend to not want anyone else knowing my business. My basic philosophy at work is that if you aren't my supervisor and we haven't been to each others house then you aren't important enough in my life to have this information.

 

[Jabberwockey]

I wonder what's with the poor hygiene. Substance abuse? Depression? Both? Would he go back to the therapist?

Sorry Daze, meant to respond to this. Yes, substance abuse is an issue with him. Not so sure about depression but he does have a serious self esteem issue. I think its more of a "They wont like me anyway so why bother" thing. As for him going back to the therapist?



Yeah, not anytime soon. He doesn't like them, probably because they wont pat him on the back and say it isn't his fault. Eventually, hopefully, when he makes his mind up to get his act together maybe he will see a therapist again.

 

[Lil]

Yes, I'd actually meant to respond to that as well and forgot. Lord knows I've offered to put him back in therapy. We get 6 free visits thru work and after that we'd pay! He's got good insurance. I even told him to make appointments after 5 and I'll take him.

He said his last therapist was terrible because she told him everything he was doing was wrong and she didn't know how to help him.

In other words, she didn't fall for his "poor me" act and called him on the crap he was pulling and pointed out it was his doing. I told him maybe she told him that because what he was doing was wrong.

He will come right out and say that his situation is all his fault, yet somehow still wants the rest of the world to feel sorry for him and tell him what he's doing is okay.

I wish he'd go. I wish he'd actively try to get a handle on his problems.

If wishes were horses beggars would ride.

He won't even make a chiropractor appointment. He'd rather complain about his back.

 

[InsaneCdn]

He won't even make a chiropractor appointment. He'd rather complain about his back.

been there done that. But... if he does happen to be Aspie, then it this doesn't surprise me either. Seems like anything that involves talking to people is a huge hurdle - especially people they don't know, in a situation where they have to be precise and proper. Shuts down lots of Aspies I happen to know. Making appointments is... torture.

 

[Nikimoto]

You don't have to like my style of advice giving, but it is only advice, because I am in similar shoes. What I can't accept is you tearing my words apart and taking things out of context. I think you have gone too far at this point.
You seem like people who simply want to complain about your son's lack of appreciation for your continued enabling, and yes many of your retorts were highly passive aggressive and obtuse.
I didn't deserve that any more than I deserved what my crazy son has done. Your behavior is not that much different.

 

[Lil]

What I can't accept is you tearing my words apart and taking things out of context. I think you have gone too far at this point.
You seem like people who simply want to complain about your son's lack of appreciation for your continued enabling, and yes many of your retorts were highly passive aggressive and obtuse.
I didn't deserve that any more than I deserved what my crazy son has done. Your behavior is not that much different.

Okay...I quoted small parts of your response rather than your very long sentences because I didn't think it was necessary to quote the whole thing to get my point across. I had no intention to take anything out of context.

YOU don't seem to understand that I simply don't want to hear you tell me - again and again - that YOU would NEVER do this and that for your son. You haven't said anything helpful...simply told me that you would never have done what I did. The case is DONE.

And I'm done with YOU. Please do us both a favor and quit responding altogether to anything I post. Your attitude is not only hurtful but unhelpful and I deeply resent your name calling and spiteful remarks.

 

[BusynMember]

If Evan winds up in court, not only will I not be there, he will not be invited home anytime soon due to shaming our family with his disgusting behavior.

While I never helped my kid out either once she turned eighteen, and she did quit and turn it around, I have find THIS quoted sentence curious. How in the world does what a separate human being from you, be it a stranger or your son, "shame" anybody else? Embarass, maybe. I get that. My son has embarassed me many times, especially while he was still little and supposed to be acting "cute" because he was so young...and he acted mean and other moms yelled at me for how he hurt their kid. I WAS embarassed that he could not just behave himself and had to always create drama, sometimes in places I'd rather he didn't.

But I never felt shamed by his behavior. I have never done his behavior. I never would.

I think it is healthier to remember that we all different people and not responsible for what anyone else does, even if it's a child of ours. Sure, it CAN be embarassing, but I don't really see how it shames us all. At least, the way I look at it, and maybe I'm wrong, what a family member does has nothing to do with the rest of us. I find this an unusual concept.

 

[Albatross]

Aw, I'm sorry to read this, Jabber and Lil.

It is so hard for me to see my Difficult Child when he is like that, unwashed and seemingly not caring at all about his life.

I think that there are a couple of good things about today. One is that he got himself there and showed up for his appearance. At least he cares that much; at least he has SOME interest and SOME hope. That is something.

The other is that with this being his first time, I feel pretty certain that all of it made an impact on him. I am sure it was so very hard for you to see him like that. I hope you know what I mean when I say I hope it was even harder for him to BE like that today. Hopefully it left enough of an impression that he will not want to be in that position again.