What a surprise. Father actually did not call.

[recoveringenabler]

After living with so many strange people afflicted with whatever they were afflicted with, I now look at it in terms of energy............some folks, doesn't matter who, relatives, friends, strangers, have a toxic energy born out of their own perceptions of reality. Their perceptions are not my perceptions. Over time I've learned to recognize the toxicity and the boundaries I've erected ward them off. Looking at it as energy takes my own judgments out of it, it isn't necessarily good or bad, it is just what it is and I have learned that if that toxicity leaks into my world, I suffer, so I don't allow it in. For me it's gotten to be simple. And, my parents, my bio family taught me that. Once I discover that energy, I remove myself from that sphere.

Some people may not be able to help themselves, I believe that too. Whether it's intentional or not, doesn't matter, if it's toxic to me then it is my responsibility for myself to keep myself safe. It is not my responsibility to figure it out and try to fix them. I used to do that and it never, ever worked. I have the power to keep myself safe.......and I do.

 

[BusynMember]

RE, I'm starting to believe that just like the onus of living a fruitful happy, productive and independent life is on the shoulders of our difficult children (not us), I am also starting to believe that the onus of protecting ourselves from abusers, even if they are our grown children, is on us too. Only WE can protect us from those we know darn well will harm us either emotionally, financially or physically and only we can take ourselves out of the situations by either distance, low contact, or no contact (depending on how dire the circumstances are).

If I continued to accept my father's abuse then I deserved to hear it since I have the power within me to decide not to hear it anymore. And I hope this has happened. Setting boundaries doesn't always come with painlessness to us, at least at first, but I'm convinced that most people who tear their hearts away from abusive people of any stripes are happier that they did it after time heals the pain of losing that person in their life.

I could be wrong. It has always been that way for me though. I am learning something else. I am not that unique an individual that nobody else is like I am. There are others who decide to remain distant with abusers who are also very happy in their lives now that they did it.

 

[recoveringenabler]

I'm convinced that most people who tear their hearts away from abusive people of any stripes are happier that they did it after time heals the pain of losing that person in their life.

It has always been that way for me though

I believe that too MWM and it has always been that way for me too. I've been at this for decades, one toxic person at a time, I've now gone through most of my bio family, many of my former friends, associates of all kinds......and as I've recognized the toxicity and set my boundaries, I am MUCH, MUCH happier. I am MUCH safer and MUCH more comfortable in my world.

I believe that folks who are unconscious to their impact on me and others are extremely hazardous to my health. They may not know what they are doing or saying that is hurtful, but now I DO. I completely agree that it is on us to remove ourselves from that energy. I refuse to be a victim to anyone. And, without that energy around me, my level of peacefulness, serenity and joy has increased dramatically. I know that's true for you too, I've been reading your posts now for 3 years and like me, you've walked away from all of it. Life changes in every possible way when we detach and accept. Radical acceptance works. But before you get there, you have to let go on SO many levels........ That's the dicey part.......

 

[BusynMember]

It's not easy, especially if it's a child and/or you are a person who cares deeply about what others think of you. If you, say, tell your child to get a job or find another place to live or tell Dad you can't talk to him anymore unless he stops screaming at you, there is much judgment by other people. "ONLY A MONSTER DESERTS HIS FAMILY!" you hear, in more subtle ways. It's like a scarlet letter. It's also nonsense, but some people are sensitive to the opinions of strangers.

That's why I don't think it is smart to tell anyone about something that is between you and another person, and I mean ESPECIALLY if you are confiding in either a relative or a mouthy friend. Less is more. Nobody else needs to know, even if they ask about it. There is this forum. That's enough. I personally am fortunate that I never sat around worrying what neighbors thought about me. Most likely they found me nice but distant and maybe the distant thang developed into gossip.

Who cares?????

With me time made it easier. My mother's disinheritance of me and my siblings not even putting me in the obit and their attitude toward myself as the family blacksheep was an "aha" experience that changed me for good. We all need a kick to get there. Some sad souls never get there. They are the eighty year old mothers still being abused by and supporting their sixty year old "children." I pity them for never having lived. You can't do that and have a life of your own.

I don't understand those who feel the need to parent 25, 35, 45, 65 year olds just because they gave birth to them. Maybe I understood it at one time, but that was before I realized that I am a person who is seperate from my children. Seems like ages ago.

I hope everyone on this forum learns not to allow anyone to have so much power over them that they do it all their lives and never give themselves, or the other person, a chance at happiness. I believe many people who come to this forum leave because some of us dare to be happy in spite of a struggling, even homeless child.

Oh, well. It's sad all the way around.

 

[Nomad]

My father died in the summer of 2011. I've been trying to find my post about it. I am so grateful to the folks that commented, especially the ones with a narcissistic parent. Their behaviors can be so damaging and confusing. MWM, I found that I was flooded with memories 99.9999% of them were bad! I had one or two positive recollections of my father. Sad.

My father did things that were outrageous, for example, when my mom had lung cancer, he would smoke in the bedroom right next to her while she was sleeping. Yet, if you called him on his bad behavior (s) he NEVER would admit that he did anything even slightly/remotely wrong and he particularly would NOT acknowledge ever if you said you were upset by something. He would immediately dismiss any comment you made along these lines.

My father was very smart and he did something that is classic among intelligent narcissists...he had a few friends that he was nice to so that he would have "evidence" of being a good person. But, these friends when he died, told me that there was weird evidence sort of unravelling of a terrible person buried underneath. For example, his girlfriend disagreed with him about something and he tried to strangle her. (Yet she stayed with him...they truly prefer partners who are co-dependent and have trouble picking up cues of deviant behaviors)

Oh, I think (but am not sure) that deep down inside my father knew something was wrong with him. He certainly had heard more than once that he needed therapy. But, that only fueled his narcissistic fire and he seemed worse. Like it's more comfortable to stick with the routine of thinking they are smarter than everyone and using people confirms their superiority or something.

They have NO, zero, nada empathy and I agree this makes them selfish to the point of dangerous...a great way of putting it.

I too stay AWAY from such people.

 

[BusynMember]

Nomad, you got it nailed.

My father had a few friends, but very few. Mostly, after my borderline mom finally divorced him, and there was blame on both sides, he found a very rich Jewish woman (remember, the Jewish was important to him in the eyes of his own family and his one or two friends). She had received millions in her divorce from her wealthy first husband, but also had money in her own right so he latched onto her like a leech. Yes, as a pharmacist, he made a decent salary, but nothing like the millions SHE had. And she let him live in her mansion and stayed with him because she wanted a man and she was not very attractive. She was a bright, intelligent woman, but definitely codependent.

The things she put up with are unbelievable, like the way he talked about handicapped people when she had a daughter who was so crippled she needed somebody to change her diapers. Sad thing it was. She had been healthy and got sick in college seemingly overnight. Her brain was very sharp yet she had to live with people changing her diapers at age nineteen. Every time her mother went to help her, my father would call US to scream and yell about "her conniving daughter who wanted her mother all the time." He said those things to her too and she let him. Not that she didn't argue back, but she stayed with him even though he called her daughter all those horrible things he called us. And said the absurd such as, "Your daughter could do more if she wanted to."

After she died, my father was furious that he was not left anything in her will and that her son, who lived in California and was barely in her life, swooped in to take all the goodies. Of course, he had a legal right to them and my father did not. This was a big deal to him for quite some time. Yet, at the same time as he badmouthed her son, he talked about how much he had loved her and how saintly she was. Funny, when she was alive, he used to rant and yell at us about how she spent too much time with her daughter and was fat. Never appreciated her "sainthood" while she was alive.

He was 70 when she died and he certainly did NOT stop dating. He dated A LOT. And he dated (gasp) non-Jewish women. When called in on it he just said, "At my age it doesn't matter anymore." Really? Okay. Makes sense to me...not. Especially with how crazed this issue made him. He was sure that my sister and I did not have a million bucks because we married non-Jewish men, although he was nice to all of them to their faces and probably liked them, especially my first husband who would listen to him talk about himself non-stop. At any rate, it always amazed me that my father got the women. He did look good for an older man and still looks very young for his 90 years...lol...but I'd rather be alone forever than put up with his abuse. Only one woman I know of was shocked by his behavior. She knew my sister before she met my dad and spoke to her about my dad and said, "Once he got angry and I was flabbergasted. His language was something I had never heard before, not from anyone." Yet she'd wanted to marry him.

It would not surprise me if at one time or another my father had tried to strangle one of the women in his life. He was more of a verbal abuser, but at times his eyes would change and he'd look murderous, although he didn't hit us kids...but he LOOKED like so angry and would be so explosive. I would believe he lost it on somebody. He did shove one woman in public blaming her for his losing his coat.

Scary thing for me was that my mother was just as abusive to me in her own way.

It really is no wonder that my bro and sis needed a scapegoat and that we never really got along. We were survivors, not siblings and we clashed on how bad our childhood was, with me thinking it was far worse than they do.

 

[recoveringenabler]

I spent many years presuming it was all ME. I think that's a normal response for children of mentally ill people to have, or really, dysfunctional parents, parents who cannot be present for their children and offer them love and safety, no matter what the label is. And yes, it was VERY hard to first see the truth and then even harder to let go of what I wanted, the way I wanted to see it and ultimately the person themselves. I found it to be a futile experience where there is no healthy outcome. Once you recognize that the situation is not going to change and you have absolutely no responsibility or control, AND you give up self blame and the endless pondering of how it got this way or what could I have done, or is it me.........then all bets are off, it's time to exit stage left.

I've been at this a very long time, it was clearly a process of letting go......detaching and accepting of what is. Each step of the way was wrought with grief.........and yet, once the grief goes through you, once it's expressed, the level of liberation and freedom, as well as a new found self respect grows enormously. I think the self respect is the single most important thing. For now I can trust myself, I can trust myself to make good choices to protect myself, to love myself enough to keep myself out of places where I am harmed, NO MATTER WHAT. There are no circumstances where it is okay to be abused. NONE.

 

[BusynMember]

I've been at this a very long time, it was clearly a process of letting go......detaching and accepting of what is. Each step of the way was wrought with grief.........and yet, once the grief goes through you, once it's expressed, the level of liberation and freedom, as well as a new found self respect grows enormously. I think the self respect is the single most important thing. For now I can trust myself, I can trust myself to make good choices to protect myself, to love myself enough to keep myself out of places where I am harmed, NO MATTER WHAT. There are no circumstances where it is okay to be abused. NONE.

Couldn't have said it any better than you and can't disagree with one word you've said. Too bad it often takes so long to get to this peaceful place, isn't it?

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

But it's just my sperm donor doing what he's done for me all of my life.

It's not just me. There is some sick sort of solace in that.

We were survivors, not siblings

So, though I have stayed altogether away from reading psychiatric diagnosis kinds of things, I took this book: Dangerous Personalities (Joe Navarro) out from the library and read it after Witz and Nomad's responses.

It was the strangest thing.

I was not looking for it.

There it was.

Written by a former FBI profiler...he says there are people who are wired differently and that for him, the question is not how they got that way or whether they can change, but how to recognize and protect ourselves from them.

He writes about case histories. He addresses what it is to parent these kinds of people.

He addresses what it is to be raised by one.

And I just don't know what to think.

It must be true, then...and I must be at a place where I can hear that harsh true thing and believe it. I remember the sense of betrayal I felt when difficult child daughter was beaten. That was a big part of that whole loss of faith thing I went through. I just could not get over that what he said and how he behaved and what he promised and his assurances meant...nothing at all.

Not even to his own child.

husband told me, but I didn't believe him.

But this author addressed parenting or having been parented by someone like that, too.

Spooky.

Cedar

 

[witzend]

I'm going to look for that one, Cedar.

 

[Nomad]

I'm going to look for that book too.

MWM...spoke about how she was sure her dad at some point likely wished her harm. OMG..that hit home.

When my father was dying, I told him I was sorry he was so ill and in a way, I meant it. It is horrible to see anyone terminally ill. Dying is very often gruesome. Ideally, I think we would all like to go peacefully and quickly in our sleep. But, my father had three months or so of steady deterioration and perhaps since he had no spiritual beliefs to hold to, no close family and no true friends, this death was absolutely horrid. And he was very slow to come to grips with it (also a narcissistic trait) , so I think he was constantly shocked by his worsening health. Anyway, I wouldn't wish a slow, painful, lonely death on anyone. So, I did try to help when and where I could. I didn't go overboard, but helped here and there. He didn't believe me when I said that I was sorry he was so sick and he got mean and nasty. Hard to fully explain, but I sensed this weird projection emanating from him at that moment. As if he was saying "well, I've wished you would die all these years." It was profoundly disturbing and creepy. He moved 1.5 hours away from me when my mother died and reinvented himself. Poor man, with the deceased wife and mean daughter. I was the only evidence of his tremendous lies. He may very well have wanted me "gone." Hard to conceive that any father would wish this on his daughter. I spent my entire youth trying to please him...straight a's in school, etc.

But there is no pleasing them. Just a lot of use, abuse and what have you done for ME lately! An IMPOSSIBLE , very sad, horror.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Nomad and Witz, you both have more in depth knowledge than that author will give you, I think. Given my reluctance to know about this subject, that book was perfect for me. I am glad I read it, but I am a little sorry I read it. difficult child daughter lied to me about something small yesterday. I did not realize, or hid that from myself at the time. This morning, I got it, clear as could be, that the simple little thing she had said was a lie.

It was weird, to know it. I usually keep those kinds of understandings out of conscious awareness.

Anyway, the book seems to be sinking in in a way something more well-researched may not have.

I am not so sure I like to know these things at all.

***

He illustrates his examples with stories about actual criminals. Charles Manson, OJ, the Mafioso. Women (or men) who have killed their children.

Children (the Menendaz brothers) who have killed their parents.

***

My mother can exude that kind of energy, Nomad. She does not seem to grieve when someone dies. Her father, her sister, my father, even. She misses her mother, I think...but she does not say wise things the mother said, or funny or sweet things. For instance, I do not know what the mother cooked, whether she was a good cook. I know more about what my grandfather was like than I do what my grandmother was like.

My grandfather had that same iciness to him, that almost reptilian quality, that my mother does.

What I am trying to clarify is that my mother does not seem to share personal details about her mother which could bring her memories of her mother alive for me.

There seems to be an eerie, emotionless quality to the things my mother remembers. Disturbing facts seem to fall out as she explains this or that old picture.

It was very strange, to read that book and to think about these things.

How extraordinary.

Cedar

 

[BusynMember]

Sounds like the author was explaining personality disorders.

Yes, it is hard to know about these things, but I'm sort of like a sponge. I want to know, as much as it may hurt. So I read obsessively and learn. The up side of that is I can spot 'em and I can protect myself from them.

Crazy lying, without a cause, is a trait of borderline. Lying to make one seem better or to conceal one's true identity (the person underneath the lie) are narcissistic and antisocial traits. But borderlines who are very severe may pick and choose from those disorders too. The hard part of reading about those things is that the people who have them really don't feel bad about what they do to others...no empathy or short on empathy...so they don't feel guilty or anxious and don't have any motivation to try to change. Because...as we all know...

"IT'S YOUR FAULT I DID IT!!!!!!"

 

[witzend]

What I am trying to clarify is that my mother does not seem to share personal details about her mother which could bring her memories of her mother alive for me.

She may be trying to not bring her mother alive for her. It's hard to know the reason why.

Nomad - About 10 years ago I had heard that my father was ill with a second arterial blockage. He'd had quadruple by-pass about 15 years before that but do you think he'd quit drinking or eating anything he wanted any time he wanted? Anyway, I sent him a "Get Well" card that just said "I'm sorry to hear that you are ill. I hope you will be better soon." I got this three page letter back from him explaining every little ache and pain and sign of old age - and lifetime of self abuse - that was wrong with him. He didn't say "Thank you for your concern", and he didn't ask how I was or mention anything that I know he knew we were going through at the time. If he had I probably would have made an effort to reconnect, but it was so bizarre I didn't even know what to say. "Poor me, poor poor pitiful me. Look at how brave I am in the face of a terrible life."

He never understood that all children are born as empty vessels only knowing their own needs, and as parents we are supposed to fill them with love and care the way he did his beloved vegetable garden. Instead he filled us with guilt for existing. Yes, he worked hard - sometimes 2 - 3 jobs to send us to private school where the message was guilt. We never saw him except at Mass where the message was more guilt, or at bedtime where he was yelling at us to go to bed and shut up. Yes, "the perfect one" saw a different man, because she was perfect. She also lied to him about every facet of her adult life to garner his favor.

There are good things about myself I never knew and lies about myself that I believed all of my life that I am only just now seeing and I'll be 54 in a few weeks. It's a real calm. I guess three years away plus a death is about the length of time it takes to begin to notice a change for the better. I don't feel "at home" here yet, but I don't feel "totally at odds", either.

 

[DazedandConfused]

It’s been a very long time since I’ve been on CD. Especially, the Watercooler forum. Although I would never wish the type of father that was bestowed on me, like our difficult child connection, I find it comforting that I am not alone in my survival of such heartbreaking toxicity.


I’ve shared this before, my dad was a sociopath. He died in 2004 and I didn’t speak to him for 5 years prior to his death. I just couldn’t interact with him anyone. The final straws being that he broke a promise (that final broken promise out of thousands of broken promises) of some family pictures that were suppose to go me and instead gave them to my sister. When I found out, that was it. Done. I didn’t call or make a scene. I just never made contact with him again and he never contacted me again. Whether my sister informed him of my outrage is unknown to me. I didn’t ask. I didn’t care. Goodbye.


To her credit, after scanning all the pictures, my sister did pass them on to me.


If anything, I wish I had figured out he was a sociopath prior to his death. It’s only been a few years. I would have saved me at least a little bit of heartache, though not much. I doubt I would have believed it prior to his death. He could ACT so loving and concern. Now, I know, of course, it was ALL an act. What he put his family (my mother and us three kids) through. I just shake my head now.


Of course, my mother, married off to him at 14, had no idea what she was getting into. Her father dead, her mother ill with schizophrenia. My father,19, very handsome, and charming. They were married 22 disastrous years. Until I was 35 or so, I chased my father’s “love”. A love of which he was incapable. He cunningly took advantage of it. He was cruel, violent, and stole. He was able to deflect and make it everyone else’s fault. He could twist words like no one else I’ve encountered before and hope to never encounter again. I would sometimes just want to slam my head against the wall until I was unconscious because I would feel insane after a heated exchange with him.


Such a brilliant man in many ways. Had career and monetary success by his mid-twenties, only to throw it all away in an impulsive rage for being passed over for a promotion he believed should have been his. A typical sociopathic reaction. Built several successful businesses only to destroy them through his addictive and narcissistic antics. He alienated his “decent” siblings, and because of this, I have no relationship with them. They cannot separate him from me. So, I have little, if any, extended family contact because of him.


I think about how he has an impact on my life now. It’s hard to say, especially after having difficult children. I sometimes feel like I got sandwiched by him and my difficult children. My childhood and early adulthood was him, and later my difficult children. Now, I just want peace. My difficult children aren’t quite ready to give it to me yet. I do know that I have razor wire wrapped protectively around my heart. I don’t allow many in. husband and that’s about it. I have no close friends, I don’t need the condemnation or the pity. Unfortunately, it has impacted how I parent. Which is, I’m not as loving as I would like because most of the time I feel so frustrated and fearful when it comes to both of my children. Frustrated because of their choices and fearful for what those choices may mean for them and for ME.


I do see now that my children really didn’t stand a chance when it came to our combined DNA. Both husband and I have a plethora of depression, mental illness, alcoholism, and addiction in our pedigrees. It would have been a miracle if they hadn’t been touched by it.


Back to my parents, I am fortunate that I have a warm relationship with my mother. We did have our trials, but she’s a good person that was put in a very difficult situation. She did divorce my dad and remarried, but by then I was an adult.


Thanks for this thread.


Warm holiday wishes to all.

 

[Nomad]

MWM...."it's your fault I did it!" Yep. That says a lot. Creepy, inexplicable, illogical, infuriating...sickening, confusing,etc.

Witzend....yes, that "poor me, poor pitiful me," routine was the norm for my father as well, even though he actually had it GOOD! Good looks, good health, a doting wife, a good daughter who got good grades and stayed out of trouble, a doting mother, a steady job...etc. they are liars, manipulator and users. It's extra shocking coming from a parent. I thought I had fully comes to terms when it by the time he died...I was about the same age as you are now. But his death brought up more stuff and I had a little more work to do. It is shocking and sad how deep and pervasive their damage goes.

Dazed and Confused...my heart goes out to you. I wonder if you were one of the ones that wrote to me when my difficult child/narcissistic father died about two years ago. Your father sounds like the classic narcissist. My father was handsome, charming and manipulative too. Yes, they "act" certain parts to get what they want and are good at fooling people, particularly outsiders. I believe my father had sociopathic tendencies. You validated what I have suspected all along....just like the extreme and unique difficulties of having a difficult child child...having a difficult child parent, particularly a narcissistic and /or sociopathic parent can be devastating and sometimes it takes a VERY long time to figure it all out and the damage is pervasive. I'm so glad you no longer believe his lies. If you haven't done so already, please consider therapy. I did this for years and I also read (mostly in the past) uplifting spiritual material for support. Ironically, I like AA literature too, even though I'm not a drinker. I have two very close friends, and they have brought much love and peace to my life, as well as a loving, kind, patient husband. These people have been my support system.

I'm glad you are close to your mom and it is wonderful she had the strength to divorce your father. My mother never did and died at age 49 of cancer. The story is horrifying and as you can guess, my father did not help her one bit...in fact...made her last days even worse. It haunts me.

I'm glad you caught on and stopped communication with your father who caused you so much pain. It was the healthy choice to make. Wishing you continued strength.

 

[Nomad]

I think it's entirely possible that all of you here may have helped me through that period of time when my father died 2-3 years ago. I just checked and all my posts are missing during that time. It jumps from 2009 to 2013. What happened is that I was flooded with memories and although I thought I was ok, I wasn't entirely. So, thank you again to all those that helped me.

Witzend.....i...I love what you said about children being born an empty vessel and needing love and care. So true and so very beautiful.

 

[BusynMember]

Ok. This isn't a "funny" thread, full of humor. And I am also very glad that this forum allows some of us, who had horrible childhoods ourselves, to do sort of group therapy amongst ourselves. Thank you all.

One thing did strike me as funny.

My father had a lot too. He was book smart and had a good job and didn't have too many tantrums at work so he was able to make a decent living. He has traveled all over the world with his rich girlfriend and she paid her way. He didn't have to buy ANYTHING for her. And you know what? He was a very handsome man. (sarcasm here) Now from the pictures I saw, I don't think he was so handsome. He was ok. But one of the things he LOVED to say, and STILL says is, "I was a very handsome man. Women loved me. I look much younger than I am. I am a very handsome man. I am a very handsome man. I am a very handsome man."

One of my not-traumatic childhood memories was my father taking me out to eat at a local deli. Without a doubt, he would smile at the waitress and say, "This is my daughter. Doesn't she look just like me?"

Usually the people would look puzzled and smile, but the fact is I look just like my MOTHER, not at all like him. He did that to my sister too. Both of us were very pretty when young so he got a big bang out of that. That may have been the only thing he liked about us. My brother was sick with Crohn's Disease and not handsome...very thin, frail and small...and my dad never asked the waitresses if he looked like him. It was just my sister and me.

The amount of time he spends talking about "I'm handsome" is truly humorous. He puts no values on kindness, a good heart, a sweet soul or anything emotional...just what others can see. If you are handsome, or rich, or have a great profession that he feels reflects well on him (as my brother did), then you are worthy of bragging about.Oh, dear. I just thought of another funny point.

My brother was an Actuary and made a ton of money. Actuaries were once listed in the top ten well paying jobs. But because people don't know what an Actuary is, my dad would sometimes "lose it" on my brother and say, "Why did you have to be something that nobody ever heard of? Why didn't you become a doctor or a lawyer?" I kid you not. You can't make this stuff up. My brother has the calmest nature of all of us and thought it was as funny and perverse as I do. Back to the handsome.

That "I'm handsome" and "I'm a good looking guy" just tickled me. He has never gotten over himself and how handsome he thinks he is. Even at 90, he says, "I'm a good looking man." No doubt, he looks GREAT for his age. But when I was in contact with my siblings all three of us would giggle together over "I'm a good looking man." It was really overkill. The second most common thing he said that sent us into giggles was, "I was a GOOD father." He even said to me several times, "I was a PERFECT father."

Do these personality disordered individuals live in an alternate universe?

 

[2much2recover]

Do these personality disordered individuals live in an alternate universe?

Yes, why yes they do it called me-ville!

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

"Why did you have to be something that nobody
ever heard of? Why didn't you become a doctor or a lawyer?"

:O)

I think that when we are able to laugh at some of this stuff, it is a true sign that we are healing, that our perspective has shifted. It's gone from how big they are to...something else, but I don't know what yet.

I am still flabbergasted that the cruelty I've experienced, those things so personally devastating to me, to my personhood and self image...that stuff is just what people so afflicted do. There was nothing personal about any of it.

WTF

That is why my sister is such a great salesperson, I suppose. She will sell anything to anyone, get and take money from anyone (even people on airplanes), and feels totally justified in doing so. She takes an enormous profit on the things she sells.

I cannot even do a garage sale appropriately.

When I think of the enormous amount of pain on pain that might have been avoided if I had known this sooner, I can hardly believe it. Just think, if I had known not to believe my mother when she made her comment that I must not have been such a good mother after all.

Oh, you have no idea.

It's the strangest thing. I am seeing all this differently. Maybe you were right, MWM, and we should be learning all we can about these diagnoses. It seemed somehow unfair to me. As though I were secretly calling someone names, or labeling people instead of taking responsibility for the wrongness and trying to address it. Yet, the things you all are reporting are so shockingly similar to the things I hear: My mom is 84. The last time I saw her, she was still wearing skin tight jeans or shorts. She says the legs are the last thing to go. She is an attractive woman, but 84 is 84. Here is another interesting thing: So, I was going to pump gas for my mother. And she had me so convinced of my ineptitude regarding every other aspect of self that by the time I actually pumped the gas, I could not get the pump to work properly.

My mother had to do it!

I was in my late fifties when that happened.

It just blows me away that I may have been harboring a sociopath in that place in my heart where my mother should be.

Which are the diagnoses that would apply then, to someone raised as I was?

1) Locus of control it out there, not in here.

2) I always make everything better than it is. Except that things are actually very fine. I am grateful for knowing this. It truly is like a kaleidescopic pattern falling suddenly, perfectly, into place, when I compare those stories I know about my family of origin with those I hear here with all of you. All the cruelty, all the strange, horrible things that happened...all at once, none of that is my fault and neither is the fact that I could not prevent the damage, physical or psychologic, to my sibs.

How sad for all of us...but how fortunate we are to have one another to work through it with.

In the interests of exposing and healing a secret hurt ~ which is what happened for me when I read about MWM dad being so handsome (THAT HAPPENED TO ME, TOO), these are other strangenesses:

My sister's kids invariably took center stage by dancing/singing/performing with my sister as conductor. She is the same way with her grandchild. Buying influence or something with the child's ability to march around and sing a song. Everyone stops whatever conversations were happening to listen, of course.

That is a sociopathic thing to do. Once would be fine, but this is what my sister's children and now, her grandchildren, are doing.

Huh.

More, later.

Cedar