Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by TerryJ2, Aug 13, 2012.
And I have to ask ---------WHY guns on others? I mean if you are TRULY mentally ill and don't want to around people- there are lots of ways to be alone. If these jokers and that was not a play on words either for that man in Aurora - I do NOT believe he is mentally ill - but if these people are given "mental" insanity pleas - This country is going to get VERY TOUGH on gun law - even for hunters.
Star, I'm with you. Ok, if you really wanna do yourself in........then in my opinion that is your business and have at it. But I will never understand why on earth you would feel the need to take someone else with you, most especially a group of strangers.
Sadly, gun laws won't do a blasted thing to help. Because there will always be a criminal element dealing in guns. Laws only makes it more profitable. It gives the public a false sense of security. Because even an insane person doing this type of thing is not going to stop and worry about a gun law, they'll find a way to get one and do it anyway or simply choose another method which could easily be worse. Only thing gun laws do is make society less apt to protect themselves in a world of ever increasing violence.
They think that they're going to be famous.
Could be, Witz.
In regard to taking others with-you, that's exactly what his mother said.
Well... I can relate on some level to "feeling the need to take someone else with you".
Workplace shootings, school shootings... where the person has been mistreated (not always is that the case, but often is)... it seems like the intent is to inflict as much pain on "everyone else" as they have had to deal with in life, before they "leave". It's a way of lashing back at those who have hurt you. No, it's not the best answer. But... that could have been my kid. I can see the kind of path, the kind of experiences, that could result in this.
But... mass killings of random strangers? That part I don't get.
It could had been my kid too. So I do kind of get it. Even mass killing random strangers. It seems that in that point, everyone is 'one of those', it doesn't matter any more if they are those same people who wronged you, it is enough they are people. School and workplace shootings seem to be about revenge and many of those who kill random strangers still seem to profile the same. For example just few days ago they published this big report about Breivik-case (he is that Norweigian guy who set up a bomb near government building (8 dead) and after that proceed to kill 69 people (mostly kids) who were in political affiliated camp in the island.) He too psychologically profiles like a school shooter, being ostracised on the young age, radicalising through internet, hate for humanity etc. I'm not sure if they have the report fully out in English, but part of his background was interesting. And kind of chilling.
And then there are of course those who are acutely mentally ill. We had a case like that few years ago. There was this well educate, smart professional woman with good job. In short time she fell very badly ill with paranoid schizophrenia and before people even really got that she was really that ill, she killed several people while thinking she was part of some intelligence agency secret war or something. She thought she was only protecting herself or justice.
For the first type of shooters police can do something. taking threats seriously, actively monitoring more extreme webpages, gun laws etc. For really mentally ill the options are in the health care. I have not yet seen the country there mental health is well treated in the system. There is a lot to be done in that area.
And then there is of course also prevention of those wrongfulnesses. Work against bullying, making schools safe and caring places for kids etc. One can always dream.
Star I would love to know why you dont think the Aurora shooter is mentally ill. I fully believe he is severely mentally ill. He has all the classic signs of a slide straight into paranoid schizophrenia. He was an extremely brilliant young man all his life from all accounts and then in his late teens/early 20's all that fell apart and it became overwhelming to him. That is often the classic time for schizophrenia to rear its head in adults. They can appear somewhat normal but maybe just a bit eccentric but people expect that from brilliant people. While I wish this had something to do with an insanity plea, it really doesnt because he most likely did know right from wrong. I think that is a stupid way to measure the insanity plea. I think a true diagnosis and if someone has had ongoing treatment for a disorder is a better way to measure it. You can tell now with brain scans and such.
I do believe with medications he can be controlled in a forensic psychiatric hospital. I dont believe he belongs in a regular prison setting. I dont believe he will get the adequate help he needs. He needs ongoing long term psychiatric care. No I dont think he should ever get out but I think he should be in the forensic hospital instead of jail.
Oh, and most of these shooters have never gotten treatment as children and teens. That is one thing that is almost universal among them all. None of them have been in treatment like the parents here have done. While some of us have worried about things like this, I dont think its a real worry because I have yet to hear of one of these shooters who have been in long term psychiatric care from childhood.
Aurora? Is that the Co one? (sorry my memory thing)
If so, I agree with you Janet. After living with my Mom........well, let's just say it was so obvious that was ridiculous......... to me, to anyone really familiar with paranoid schizo. I had to do my own background research on my Mom. My biodad confirmed it. (he had no clue the info I was actually looking for) He'd known / dated my mom since she was like 13/14 yrs old (he's only 2 yrs older). They married young, she was just 18 and he was 20. He came home one day when she was about 21-22 (ages of kids at the time tells me how old she is) and he said it was like walking in on a complete stranger. It only got worse from there. Oh, there would be good days where she was more normalish.....but they grew fewer and farther between until eventually the marriage fell apart. He didn't completely blame her either. He said he should've done something, found out what was wrong, but he didn't. Her symptoms showed up in the classic time frame, well the full blown symptom anyway. Many psychiatrists believe strongly that symptoms appear throughout life but at a younger age they are much more mild ect and can often be over looked. Adding in the info I got from biodad to things I already knew about her in association with family members, neighbors, co workers, ect.......there just was no doubt. It was there all along but didn't kick in full blown until her early 20's.
And more the most part, Mom can maintain as far as the general public is concerned. You'd probably not suspect a thing, especially if not familiar with mental illness or schizo....unless it was a pretty bad day or you saw her all of the time. I worked in a hospital with my mom before I married husband. I floated all over the hospital to work, so I often worked on her floor. Her co workers thought her strange and tended to avoid her, most especially avoid her "bad side". Know what I mean?? They noticed it far more than anyone else outside of the family.
Problem is, when most people think schizo......they think of people who believe themselves to be Jesus or George Washington or whatever......But not many (at least in my experience) are like that. It's a stereotype, not the real deal. So the public looks at this guy and say he's faking to get off. Trust me, you might be able to fake a lot of dxes, but I really think it would be tough, if not impossible, to fake schizo. You'd have to be one hellova actor.
in my humble opinion - *this* is the problem: "A forensic psychiatrist who interviewed Sparks recently called him "imminently dangerous" and said his psychosis is directed intently at Crow."
So they've got this psychotic dangerous guy making death threats against Sheryl Crow and Harvey Weinstein, and - woo-hoo - they were able to get a restraining order. Sorry, but that's just pathetic. It sure wouldn't help me to sleep any better at night. At best, they can get the guy arrested (arrested, not treated) if/when he violates RO - but then you're left praying that *all* he does is violate RO.
It's probably not politically correct, but if there are folks out there who are dangerous and throwing up red flags to professionals (a la Arizona and Colorado), there needs to be a more concrete system to ensure that they are not given the opportunity to commit dangerous acts. I don't know if the law is still in effect, but when we lived in WA state, if a predator served his time but was considered still highly likely to reoffend, he could be locked up in a mental health facility until he was deemed to no longer be a threat, even after his prison sentence was served. Again, I may get slammed for thinking this, but what is the difference between a predator and a mentally ill person who is "imminently dangerous"?
We lock up folks with- TB when they refuse treatment - is mental illness, in some cases, any less of a public safety issue?
Seems to me the holes in the MH system keep getting bigger and bigger, and everyone is passing the buck.
Okay - here's my thought - example - locally - and it DID make a HUGE impact on the way things have happened here in Columbia.
Google Carter Strange beating in 5 points, columbia sc. And then Tyheem Henry and the gang of 8.
Carter was beaten by 8 youths varying in age from 13-19.
He was nearly killed - he's had to have his face reconstructed.
If this were an infamous case? If Tyheem could have afforded a criminal attorney or if someone had stepped forward and volunteered to represent him in court - you could say that Tyheem was mentally ill. WHAT right-minded person leads 7 other kids in an attack on one, skinny kid and beats him for no reason. Carter was robbed - but he didn't fit the look of someone who would have a great deal of money on him. The beating was brutal - BUT there had been MANY, MANY beatings in our community -and they were white on white, black on black, white on black, black on white - didn't matter - color had little to do with anything. This was STUPIDITY. NO ONE tried to make this a hate crime. WHat was different is THIS time pictures were released, footage and someone kept the story alive because BULLYING needed to go.
WHen the judge handed down the sentence? I dont know ONE single person that didn't gasp. FIFTEEN YEARS in prison. Had the other youths been older - they would be in prison not Department of Juvenile Justice also.
NOW we can take a look at Tyheem. Disect his past, his mental health, and his life, family, what he did get, what he didn't get as a child. Doesn't change the fact that he is SO lucky he didn't beat this kid to death.
WHAT IS apparent is that FIGHTING in Columbia and assault? Are at an ALL TIME LOW. (check that) all time low. Where they used to be commonplace. WHY? Because this judge was pro=active in making sure the maximum was given under the law, and didn't go with - what happened to Mr. Henry in his life.
How does this tie to Aurora co? Well -
I don't think this joker guy is truly schizophrenic. Is he mental? Well heck yeah. You don't do what he did and be in your right mind. BUT he was seeing a doctor, did NOT show ANY signs that a true schizophrenic could hide from a trained professional. So in that I have to wonder - DID he just get a whopping dose of voices in his head (not meant to make light at all)? I do know schizophrenics. I lived with someone who had MPD and schizophrenia - and he is a scary person, cabaple of unstable acts. I also know lots of schizophrenics that are medicated and will call and say - I'm not right - I need help - I'm a schizophrenic - please help me I need to get to the doctor before....(X). So there IS and ARE moments of lucidity in the minds I believe where they can STILL make choices. His choice was to drive to a public place and do mass killing.
Im finding it hard to connect him to people that go off the deep end of a schizophrenic cycle, with bizzare behavior - because right after the shooting - he wasn't struggling or trying to say NO I didn't do anythign wrong..More like - OH okay you caught me. If you were not in your right mind and 10 SWAT guys were trying to take you down? WOuldn't you struggle wondering WHAT in the world did I just do?
I may be wrong about him - but even if he IS rehabbed for 40 years and were to be released into society - after that length of time you're institutionalized and not able to function in the free world. If he stays in prison and they do make his mind right (considering) then what kind of a life will he have to face when he is lucid and realizes he's the largest mass killer wtih a handgun on american soil? That alone would take him another 120 years and unless he's a very faith based person I'm not sure he'd survive it.
Either way? There is no win/win for anyone here. The forgiveness may come, but the forgetting will never go away. And it would take an INCREDIBLE movement in our world for everyone directly affected by this mans evil to come to him, and say "We forgive you, we love you, we want to see you get well, and we're behind your progress." Humans just aren't built that way - we have to work hard at that all our lives. If ever.
I dunno Janet - Im just glad that burden isn't mine. But if he does come out as schizo - everyone that is diagnosis with schizophrenia will NEVER EVER be looked at the same way again - and possibly never get the proper help they need. People will hear SCHIZO and freak and innocent people could get hurt - especially the ones that really are seeking help = or live next door to you - they won't be viewed the same by people that have little knowledge of mental health issues like us. OR forgiving. Again - just no good outcome here.
It doesnt matter what the diagnosis him with. Already they are a saying he has some sort of borderline personality disorder. How do you think that makes me feel? Every time ANY person does ANY wrong in society I hear that they have borderline. Heck I cant tell you how many times they said Casey Anthony was borderline. I wanted to smash my TV at least once a day. I spent about a good two months trying to call in to the news stations to make the point that borderlines dont do that but never got put on the air.
Those in the mental health field are fighting hand over fist to get the message out that 95% of the mentally ill are harmless especially if medicated but even if not. You just cant help what people are going to think just because this guy has an illness. I firmly believe he does. Who knows, maybe I am wrong but I dont think you go from a normal teen boy who had an internship to the Salk foundation and then end up a serial killer just because you like Batman movies.
You know what? For all the times I watched the Casey Anthony stuff on tv? I never heard or maybe I don't remember about Borderline (BPD) being mentioned. MAYBE because when you get to look at stuff from the top of a mountain (so to speak from a mental illness point of view) I tend to be very "OMG here we go again" with things and instead of making me angry it's being said? It makes me sigh because of how STUPI.....t....yes that is a t.....stupit people are behaving that are "SUPPOSEDLY" not mentally ill.
For example - Ten years ago - we got hooked up with the States "DREAM TEAM" for mental health help. I think Daisyface may have the same Shriners Clowns, just a different car. It was heralded as the PREMIER go to establishment for the most severely disturbed children in the state. MIND YOU - this is TEN years of life experience, and doctors, and pills, and THIS board....prior to today. So we're sitting there, in the office and they sent us a man who told my son FIRST VISIT - YOU WILL...blah blah blah, (UM.....have you read NO books on effective communication?) Then same man admits to me - hes done on the third visit - but if I don't keep having him to the house? I will loose my foot in the door for further assistance - that's how the game is played. I keep him entertained for an hour.....HE makes out a report that Dude is INCORRIGIBLE and like a layered chess board - we move to the upper level of supposed care. (PFT even bigger joke was the staff psychiatrist) My questions to her that I was asked HERE on THIS board - over TEN years ago went kinda like WHA? HUH? YOU WANT TO KNOW WHUT? She wasn't a deer in the headlights - she was like weasle sucked a jet engine at 20k feet - NO idea what she was doing there, but it was interesting to see how she was going to get herself out of flying fan and into the mire. I believe my pet name for her was Babbonskiester. (think harsher....think harsher)
So through it all I asked Dude if ANY of the help he received did ANY good. NOPE. But he went because quite frankly we HAD to have a break from the misery and anxiety - and get our batteries recharged to deal with him when they WOULD send him home. What did help? Therapy. Did he like that? H no. HATED IT - but guess what he wants now? WOuld love to have ? Therapy. He thinks he's BiPolar (BP). - Okay have no idea what makes you think that - or what bedside jail bird is diagnosis you with this - but if that's what yu think? When you get out? Make it a priority......OR plan a lifetime of living like you do now....and GOSH I bet you just LOVE IT THERE?? Don't you....LOVE IT? I'm not the sugar coat fairy I once was......I'm more like salt in an open wound fairy......
Point is - PEOPLE that KNOW these things - are ANNOYED by people that DO NOT. I don't see you as anything but the loving friend I know.......could you go koo koo bananas and assault your television? (shrug hmmmm ) Guess so - but in the end - you restrain yourself, because you realize YOU HAVE A CHOICE. What I'm talking about with the kid in Aurora is that I believe he KNEW what he was doing when he did it. There's too much of NO disconnect - between ------Im here, I'm in the theater....crime is committed....OH here I am. Ut oh - now I'm nuts.....Did he have a temporary lapse in judgement? ABSOLUTELY - but do I think it's been a life time of what YOU and ME and CORY and DUDE have .....LITERALLY suffered through? Not to menion (Golly how many members here?) NO. If it had been? I think there would have been signs his recent doctor would have said - UT OH.....and yet nothing. Even with the most mild cased schizophrenic...there are signs, behaviors. From what I know this man went from 0-14 in just a few days. That's the part I have problem with - and if he HAS or HAD been mentally ill, or was working up to being a full blown schizophrenic, or heck even if he TRULY is a schizophrenic - I would be interested to know - HOW MANY serial killers, or mass murderers had inclings of being schizo - and then in a short time - took so many lives .....? That I think is what it would take to convince me that THIS man is schizophrenic. And as far as borderline? NO WAY - nope. There would have to be SO MUCH MORE in his hx that SURELY SURELY would have been documented by schools, teachers, friends.....and it is NOT THERE. The evidence is NOT THERE to substantiate a lifetime or a short time mental illness. A breakdown yes//// but I dont' see him getting off. I'm not sure anyone will advocate for death penalty - and if they do it will be appealed for years and years - and YEARS......there are 14 (technically15 ) victims dead.....and like I said - I doubt they're all going to get together and say they forgive him. Never happen.
I'll agree this - his mind did snap - but I don't think it's froma lifetime of mental illness - and if his parents knew he was like this? They'd be in a generation that would have sought answers not hid it - and to my knowledge? They're not saying he was. Everything I've heard pegs him as normal up until.....if you've got other info - let me know - but so far I think he just did what he did and that was that.
JMO - but we are what we eat. Not in terms of food, so much - yes, that is a huge factor in health, including mental health. But in terms of what we put into our minds. There is so much poison out there to fill the brain with - and while it's always been around at some level, it used to be very hard to find. Now... it's all over the internet, and it's free. Warped people love to feed warped thinking to others. Take a "normal" person and suck him into the poison pit for long enough and... the brain undergoes substantial structural changes.
Yes, it's a choice to feed on this stuff. In the name of free speech, we can't shut any of it down. Most of us ignore it when it shows up, and definitely don't go looking for it.
But I've seen how plastic the brain is, how fast the negative vortex can warp thoughts and personality and logic... in real life stuff can do that to you. Take that warp and feed it poison and... it can be deadly.
So does this person have to have a life-time history of MI, in order to have gone off the deep end in some direction that may or may not end up with a formal MI diagnosis of some sort? Or... is the mind so complex that we really only know a tiny bit about this stuff, and all the rest is theory?
These statements are not about any one particular recent case. We've had some in Canada, too - not with guns, but leaving an innocent person dead. But more and more, I'm wondering if... there's just way too many factors to really have any idea what all the factors are.
Re Casey Anthony, they connected her to antisocial personality disorder.
I think they use borderline because they really aren't up on the other personality disorders. It is rare for a borderline to kill anybody. Most TV commentators, like Nancy Grace, know nothing about psychiatry and brain disorders and personality disorders.
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