Work and Germany: Abandonment

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
It was a definition of happiness as something very different than we think. According to this interpretation, happiness has to do with useful; with honorable.
I think happiness is something like when you snuggle up right close to D H's cheek, with your own.

Or when Sarah is happy in her sink. And you see her there. And feel complete, just for that second. Or when Dear Daughter laughs. And your worry eases, for those few seconds, because her laugh must be like bubbles. The happiest and most beautiful bubbles. I wish I could hear her laugh, just once.

Or son is quiet, as if stunned for that second, as his certainty is shaken about what you will or will not say....And while he may never, ever say it...he feels his love for you...and something like longing. And you feel hope. And love.

I think happiness is something like that. Life does not get better than those moments. Except dancing Tango, with the eyes of every woman in the hall on you, with admiration, and perhaps envy.

COPA
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
As I think about it, are they not reciprocal. As we are able to do the one, we do the other as well. They are tethered are they not?
Some of us find it easier to look outward than to look inward. I'm one of those. So, I don't see myself well. I know that, so I tend to feel safer undervaluing myself than overvaluing myself. But I'm pretty good at looking outward, and seeing appropriate value in others. At least I try to live that way.
 

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
Who has mistreated you, Leafy? Do you feel it was yourself, in the ways you will have been taught to see yourself, or do you feel someone else has mistreated you?
Do you feel the sister has mistreated you?
I think it is both Cedar, that through mistreatment growing up, I have learned to mistreat myself in certain ways. To put others before me, sometimes to self detriment. Others see my willingness to give, and have taken advantage of this. This I must recognize and weigh more carefully. I have to learn to tell myself " Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Beautiful imagery, Leafy. I can SO relate.
And yes, Cedar, rescue horses are OFTEN saved from slaughter. Some very good horses are sent there by bad owners that just want a fast way out of responsibility. Horses that just need a bit of work, or a work-around for their problem. Instead of being given up on.

I've been on the edge of "being slaughtered" for a looonnnggg time. I think I know what Leafy means, but it's hard to explain.
Thank you for this IC. It is true. These horses my sister and her friend save are actually in the kill buyers. It has become quite a business. They advertise the "good horses" and put a price on them. They are sometimes abused, or like dogs and cats, bought for "gifts" for children, where people don't really understand the amount of work it takes to properly care for these animals. They are discarded.
Is the imagery then something positive? That there was a time when one was bereft and alone but that we have now been rescued and are grateful for the beautiful pasture?
It is mostly positive, and a little sad. Rather bitter sweet. It also symbolizes a promising future.

Being rescued is definitely positive. But it is rescue in the sense of horses (or dogs), not in human terms. We are brought into something better. Interaction with people who care. Provision for our needs, recognition of our limitations, and the privilege of being given something useful to do. Being valued for who we are, not for what we can accomplish (winning on the track or in the ring).
Yes IC. I wanted my sister to try to understand the issues I have dealt with in comparison with her understanding of these horses. They come to the farm unsteady and unsure, sensitive and broken by their experience. Some have trust issues. The rescuers are intent on giving these animals the respect and peace that should be due all creatures of God.

Does your sister appear to care more for the animals, than for you, to hear their pain and yearning, and not your own? Do you feel she does not respond to your pain and hurt, but does to theirs?
Yes, Copa. There was a period of time that my sister and I grew close. She was my confidante. We would speak regularly on the phone. She drew nearer to me especially during my fathers illness. It was a desperate time for both of us. She, struggling with Daddy's sickness and her feeling that he was not receiving the best care. I, struggling with being so far away, and also with troubles with my d c's. I do feel that the time it took for me to break free from enabling grieved her. She did not like to see hubs and I suffer.
I understand her feeling. It must sound after awhile to an onlooker, like a broken record. It is easy for one not involved to say "What? You are helping them again? Did not you learn yet?"
I could understand how it would hurt someone close to hear of it. Much like our d c's troubles affect us?

Do you think she might feel the same? How is she like you, New Leaf? How may you be like her? Is there a way to come together, one understanding the other? Because it may be a two way street. What you feel you miss in her, she may feel the same, or similar.
This is true Copa, we are much the same in many ways. I have recognized that to love these animals, and only be able to help a few, must be discouraging and disconcerting. I have also figured out her lot in life now, is hard. Her friend has a traumatic brain injury. She is high functioning, but sis says, has lost certain personality traits. She is toughened, hard sometimes. Sis pays room and board by barn chores and driving her friend. She also works some nights. I do realize she must be tired. We have both had a hard time with our fathers passing, and moms illness. So, yes, I do see the two way street. That is why I have tried to show her, I am like a rescue horse, I have a tough situation, but I will come out of this.

I think this is what Cedar means when she talks about neural pathways. That we can change them. Reconstruct them. Those that have become habitual. All it takes is a different decision about the same thing. Seeing it another way. I think that was what Going North was trying to tell me about my thinking and suffering feeling about my son, dependent upon what he does or does not do.
Yes, I am trying to do this. That is what I meant about being careful about who I share my story with. Perhaps she has heard enough. That is okay, her feelings, so, I will adjust and respect that.

First, the sister cares for mistreated animals. This is a choice and a responsibility that she accepts and owns and does with dedication.
Yes, I admire her for this, it is hard work.

New Leaf, do you feel that your sister holds these animals as more important than are you, to her? That you desire, yearn for, require, a similar dedication, acceptance from her, and that she hold you and your needs with a similar responsibility?
Yes and no Copa. I feel that she has become impatient and misunderstanding of my emotional reactions. I think she feels I am stuck in the past. I want her to know that I have gone through difficult times, and am searching myself and my life to become a better, stronger person. That if I cry, I am not falling apart, I am falling together.

Was there a time that you wished for that from her? How much older is she, than you? Looking from adult eyes, was this wish a realistic one, then? Is it now?
I always wished to be close with my sister, Copa. We are just 13 months apart. Yes, it is realistic, it has happened, and I am sure will happen again.

What would it mean for you, New Leaf, if she complied, now? Would you be diminished or enhanced?
If my sister were to understand that I do love her, that my going through my childhood history is not to blame seek, rather to understand more of myself, I think I would feel more at peace. It is not a matter of diminished, or enhanced, more of a mutual knowing? That we had our trials, as all siblings have, but that I am okay with it? That I am trying to embrace it, learn from it and move on. I suppose you could say that is an enhancement, yes. I wish she would understand that I am seeking to discover and heal, make whole....my self.

This question applies to all of us. I know that I for sure feel to have been mistreated by my sister, and she by me. There are so many layers of years and years of the sense of betrayal, abandonment, rejection, shunning it feels close to impossible to untangle it. She feels this for me. And I, with her.
I do believe all people have had unique upbringings and experiences with FOO. Some definitely more challenging than others. It is the stuff of books and plays. For sure, we make mistakes and hurt others, even ourselves.

It could be that your sister is confused, absolutely does not know that are reacting this way and has not intended it. Of course, she could have intended every bit of it. But it could easily be that the feelings are in you.
It is both possibilities. Any relationship is hard work. I will say my older brother and younger sister do not want to deal with her. I have in the recent past, been the "middle man". Trying to negotiate the preservation of our family. Sis has been feeling for a long time misunderstood by these two. They have felt bullied and put upon by her insistence on medical decisions for my parents. They have been stood up by her on many occasions whereby she has promised help, but backed out at the last minute, causing them to scramble to aid my parents. This has caused a rift. My communicating with my other siblings appears to upset my sister, as if I have taken sides. I am trying to be Switzerland.
At the same time, my sister must own up the consequences of her behaviors.

Of course, she may feel repulsed. It may be true. But the feeling is in you. It is yours.
Yes, but it does hurt. It is mine, and I am searching the meaning of it.
our interactions too, as an adult, have effects on her. Both of you are adults now. Each with an inner child. There is the potential for reciprocity. But not if one adult is the victim and the other the perpetrator.
I think we have recently fallen into old roles, in this Copa. That is what it has felt like to me. She is the older, domineering sister, and I, the weak, overly sensitive younger. She will prod me to tears, then chastise me for crying. I have not retreated, so to speak, into my room, like leafy in the past. I have declared my feelings. She does not like this, reacts with bitterness and rebuking. Silent treatment and stubbornness. As if by my emotions, I have betrayed her.

We are all different in our decisions about staying and leaving and why.
Yes, I do not judge my sisters life decisions, it is her way. I would like the same consideration, I suppose.

I had an aunt like this that used to tell me how lucky I was to have my stepfather. Who beat me and despised me. He was a sadist. She said other men would have thrown me out. Great.
I am sorry for this, Copa, did she know of this? His treatment of you? "Other men would have thrown you out" how sad, this is Copa, I am so sorry, to be abused as a child and then spoken to this way, deplorable. I ask if she knew because hubs father was the same. He was sadistic, a wife and child abuser, but people loved him.
I do not know if they knew of his evil machinations.
He was kind and fun loving, even good natured to others. All a circus act....
We are in our circumstances. If we stay in them, we have chosen them. If we stay because we have a higher value, say of commitment or constancy or responsibility, we are not a victim. We have chosen.
In the manner of circumstances, I was referring to my d c's. In this, I have no control, only to my response. Also to my dealings with non profit bullies, which my sister knew of. I did not realize the extent of ugly politicking until it hit me, square in the gut. I do realize that I may choose to leave it, and move on, or stay and fight. I am leaning towards going, too much corruption and ugliness for my taste.

I do. I have no control over anybody else. But I decide how I respond. To me, that is everything.
This is true and wise Copa.

If this is so, that she believes this about you, and about life itself, I can see how it has closed down communication. Because this is a powerful feeling to have...that somebody blames me for my misfortune and feels I caused the misfortune of my child. That I brought it about.
In some ways I think this is what she feels. It is not the right time to ask.......and I am wrong to assume anything.

On the other hand, what you write of her makes her sound as if she has a great deal of vulnerability as well. Her sensitivity to the wounded and neglected horses, only one thing.
In many ways she is vulnerable and lovable.

The reality is that there are aggressive people. Like horses. What does it really mean about us? Why do we take it personally?
I suppose it becomes personal when the aggression is obviously directed at us. If there has developed a pattern of acquiescing, retreat, then one stands up for oneself.....I think this is what happened on my fall trip. I think she was taken by surprise.

Somebody came up after him and wanted his power. He got knocked out of his position or ceded it, I do not remember which. It bothered him, pained him for a long time.
Thank you for sharing this Copa, I feel badly for M.
It is hard to work heart and soul for a cause, then to be tread upon and misspoken of.
This is my dilemma. I know what I stand for, though it is a difficult thing, to be targeted in such a way.

Now? I never hear him talk about it. I think he could care less. I see him as more and more building his value in himself.
I think this will be true in my case ,too, the more time and distance occurs. We all have to pick and choose, how we spend our precious time.

When I came to know her I saw she was a bully and a control freak. She was mean.
This is true for this woman. There are many very aggressive people in this world, who do not care how they treat others. They can be charismatic, charming, but eventually, people find out their true colors.

It's easier for me to see and acknowledge the value in others. Much harder to see and acknowledge it in myself. The concept probably isn't different, I just have a lot more practice at the first one than at the second one.
I understand this IC. This has been a struggle for me, to understand and appreciate my own value. I look at it this way, the golden rule, "Do unto others, as you would do unto yourself."
I think it goes both ways, a model for treating others and ourselves with respect.
Some of us find it easier to look outward than to look inward. I'm one of those. So, I don't see myself well. I know that, so I tend to feel safer undervaluing myself than overvaluing myself. But I'm pretty good at looking outward, and seeing appropriate value in others. At least I try to live that way.
IC, I have to tell you, you have wonderful wisdom and insight, you are kind and caring, I thank you for what you have shared with me, the few months I have been here. I value your sentiments tremendously.

Whew, I fear I have written another book Copa, I apologize. Thank you Cedar, for your input. Thank you Insane for understanding my Rescue Horse image. I am sorry you have been on the edge of slaughter, I do know the feeling.

Thank you all for allowing me to express myself and for your most kind interest.

(((HUGS)))
leafy
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
What you write, Insane, reminds me of something about M. He always remarks when I boast and tells me, that is for others to say, not you. So, when he complements me, I am hugely pleased. He tends to do so mainly when I act from integrity. Like in my work ethic.

I think I am focused inward, on my feelings and myself. I know that sounds egocentric but I have lived alone almost my whole life. I mean, in my interior life.

Nobody in my family of origin ever really considered how I felt. I don't feel mad about that. Or cheated. It was just the way it was. So, I had to do it myself. And I find myself pretty interesting.

M would find this to be boasting. Oh well.

I have a hard time putting others first, but I try. I am thinking now if this is true. Because I have always put myself right up there. How he feels. How he is. So, maybe I am being hard on myself.

In my work I am almost selfless. What is pretty interesting when I think about it. Because I love my work. When I work. And take enormous pride in doing it well.

So that does not seem to mesh. Egocentric but loving work that focuses completely on others. The only way I understand it is that I focus on others using myself, through myself. If that makes sense.

COPA
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
You guys. There are a few posts of mine, a few posts back, like 3 to 5, that I would like feedback on, if somebody wants to.

COPA
 

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
Hi Copa, Is this the post you were thinking of?
An adult person, with capacity, with a mind, exists with everything available to him or her. I am not talking things here, I speak about responsibility. Of changing ones thinking. Of accountability. Of possibility. To see the meaning and integrity that comes from thinking differently about the same thing. Which is change.
Yes, thinking differently. Change. It is important. Are you writing of changing the way we think of our d cs' and their paths? That we cannot control what they do or say, but how we think and respond? Or, even me with my sister? Or anybody?
Is it likened to Frankls suggestion of seeing the spark, the search for meaning and potentiality, rather than seeing the plight?

I think this is what Cedar means when she talks about neural pathways. That we can change them. Reconstruct them. Those that have become habitual. All it takes is a different decision about the same thing. Seeing it another way. I think that was what Going North was trying to tell me about my thinking and suffering feeling about my son, dependent upon what he does or does not do.
It is a different perspective, a way to achieve presence and move on from the old patterns, reactions, and responses? The change, or growth of neural pathways.
Not just thinking differently, but that this actually creates a biological occurrence in our brain.

At first I felt helpless. Lost. A victim. Of him. Now I do not. It took one day to change. Before that, it had taken a lifetime.Thank you, Going North.
One day to change? How marvelous, what did you learn from Going North, Copa?


I think happiness is something like when you snuggle up right close to D H's cheek, with your own.
Yes Copa this is sweet. I like this imagery of happiness, I thought it was directed towards sister Cedar (I think still). I must say hubs is not a cuddler, but it makes me happy when he smiles.

Or when Sarah is happy in her sink. And you see her there. And feel complete, just for that second. Or when Dear Daughter laughs. And your worry eases, for those few seconds, because her laugh must be like bubbles. The happiest and most beautiful bubbles. I wish I could hear her laugh, just once.
Happiness found in the small delightful moments of life.

Or son is quiet, as if stunned for that second, as his certainty is shaken about what you will or will not say....And while he may never, ever say it...he feels his love for you...and something like longing. And you feel hope. And love.
In the small things. The silver lining. The spark.

I think happiness is something like that. Life does not get better than those moments. Except dancing Tango, with the eyes of every woman in the hall on you, with admiration, and perhaps envy.

COPA
I can imagine you dancing, with your lovely long legs, Copa. You will dance again.
Happiness is such a gift.
When I see my son, playing his tuba, I can only see his fingers, the tuba hides him, but I feel happy. At the concert I could see him counting the measures down with his fingers, I felt happy and warm that he has this for himself.

Copa, this is such a sweet post.
Thank you.

leafy
 

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
Then I found this one.....
There is a series of posts on another thread. About the peril of a young adult child away at college who is using her independence to drug and drink and party. At great risk. There is a discussion of what to do.
I have written on this thread. Mom is worried, her daughter ended up in ER. Daughter was not concerned, she had an enormous drug cocktail. It is scary to think this young woman is left to her own devices.

There is the belief by some that because the win, the college degree, is such a necessary and important thing, that it is best to leave the young woman in place, and let her finish. And to one extent or another close eyes to her peril, her willful self-destruction and to parental responsibility, especially moral responsibility.
I do not understand why this would supersede the girls risky behavior. It seems life threatening, her staying.

Some see this as the best choice. Because the degree is so important.

They decide they must close their eyes to the present circumstances of the child, as not the most important thing and focus on the win. The degree. That is how I see that.

I see the priorities as different.
I agree with you here, Copa.

That our foremost role as parents is to tell the truth. Be a beacon of what we see as integrity and truth. To speak it and act from it.
Yes.

And that to shut ones eyes to a betrayal of self (as parent and person) will contribute a little bit or a lot to the destruction of the adult child and the parent. Or at least, to the relationship.

Everything else can be gotten at a different time and place. It is replaceable.
I do not think there should be a timeline or push for this "win". I think folks should go to college, when they are ready for it.

leafy
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
One day to change? How marvelous, what did you learn from Going North, Copa?
I think it was on Feeling's thread.

I had written something like--I felt vulnerable and victim to what my son did or did not do. As if I was living my life as kind of a hostage to love. My feelings and my heart not my own.

And Going wrote to me that my feelings and mind are my own. That nobody controlled them except me. And she closed with, she wished she could better explain how to do it. And maybe I should go to therapy. I felt so helpless because I felt I did not know how to do what she wrote of. To feel that my mind was my own.

And all of a sudden I realized it was a decision. That even with my son I could decide to take back my thinking and feelings...take back control. So I did decide. And I changed. By deciding.

The post I was referring to was back a bit, I think. I talk about the thread where the daughter was taken by the police to ER because the Uber driver saw she was in trouble. And there is some discussion that the thing to do is leave her there in college because a degree is so important.

Going North had written an astute, direct and wise post about how dangerous was the situation and conduct of the daughter. That her life was in danger.

On this thread I commented upon that discussion. My thoughts that we as parents over everything were responsible to take a moral stance. That our children looked to us for direction about how to hold their own value, and how to live. And that with respect to our children, an end never justified the means. That to allow the child to keep self-destructing was to communicate that her value was not such to protect. By funding self-destruction, that was the message that would be sent. How could a college degree, be more important than that, I wrote. I wrote something like that on that thread, and discussed it here too.

I am not saying that the parent can control the child's behavior or choices. But funding them is not neutral either.

COPA
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Thank you, New Leaf.

Just now I saw your comments, on that young adult's situation and my post. This is such an important point. We believe (I have too much) that there is one important thing that is more important than maturation or personal responsibility or integrity. Of both the parent and the child. Nothing is, I think. Even life can be sacrificed, and is, for a value.

COPA
 
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