Young difficult child kicked out of the Army and More...

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by lovemysons, Oct 15, 2008.

  1. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    Hi all, Gosh it's been awhile...looks like 3 months since the last time I posted.

    Yep, Young difficult child got kicked out of the Army for sub abuse. He didn't receive a "dishonorable discharge" so that's good, it reads "General under honorable conditions" on his DD214/release paperwork.

    He's been home about a month and of course got to meet his son, my grandbaby Joey, for the first time. He totally ignored his wife when he got home and she was ready to make life difficult for young difficult child, Jarod. M told Jarod that he could only see his son at a monitored facility to start with...this quickly changed. M REALLY just wanted Jarod to come home and be, as she says, "The man I know he can be the man I believe in" etc. She wants family but sadly... he does not. He did figure out a way to see my grandbaby Joey though...He called Mindy and asked her to come over and of course acted like he was trying to work on the marriage even having sex with her which REALLY bothered me. He told me that she is leveraging Joey against him if he doesn't want her then he can't have Joey. So he just pretty much used her for the duration.
    As of last weekend though that "game playing" is all over. He was fairly verbally abusive towards her...of course he had been drinking, he pretty much stays drunk every night after work, No, he's not of age to drink, big brother supplies him and/or M was.

    So he hasn't seen Joey now in 2 weeks and thinks that M will probibly not bring Joey around to see him now until after they are divorced. She called asking for some money yesterday but Jarod has decided that if he buys diapers, formula, new car seat etc. that he doesn't need to hand her hundreds of dollars per month.
    He and husband checked out a child support online calculator that gives an amount based on income. Said he should pay around $460 per month.

    Meanwhile Oldest difficult child Josh, now 21, has left his wife, moved into an apt with some buddies, stole one of the buddies girlfriends, left that situation is living at home and seeing his girlfriend, who, did I married. So Both of them are other people. Lovely huh.

    So Now I have both difficult children back at home. They are working for husband but unfortunately husband is likely going to have to lay them off come the beginning of December. A project husband and the boys had been working on has now been put on hold because main company funding this project lost it's credit line due to the economic situation going on. Also about 2 weeks ago husband lost a 75K a year client that he had been primarily officing out of over the past 5/6 years. Soooo, now his office is being moved to home.

    And now...miss Jess. She is 16 and going to driving school Mon through Friday for the next 4 weeks. She spends a great deal of time with a male buddy...yes they are just buddies. She...I think still likes her girlfriend, which means the lesbian situation is still going on...but it's allright. She's doing well in school, meets all her responsibilities, is still bowling, In fact husband is coaching the High School girls bowling team for the 3rd year in a row and of course Jess is right at the top. She's averaging around 215 the past 2 weeks. medications are NOT working the way they were. I don't know if I revealed this , Last year, Feb 7, 2007 I had a psychotic break, and was hospitalized till I came out of it several days later. Jarod was here at that time ( pre Army) and saw what happend to me so did Jess and Joseph (husband). Josh was still in Jail at the time. I'll never know "why" it happend...the year though leading up to the mental breakdown I had had no less than 5 panic attacks, mostly out of pain regarding Josh's imprisonment. I haven't had psychosis since then but I was diagnosed as Bipolar 2. It was the mania that sent me overboard, I hadn't been able to sleep for several days prior to the onset of psychosis. It was very scary, a bit like a nightmare mixed in with reality, all religiously based...for what its worth I haven't been to church since. Just very frightend by what happedn to me. It was mental torture.

    I switched medications about a 2 months ago going from Abilify to Geodon...big mistake, the Abilify had been working beautifully, no mania, very much in the present, no was easy. The ONLY downside had been the 30 lb weight gain. Sooo, I let vanity take over and decided that my Dr needed to switch my medications, she chose Geodon. It did NOTHING for me, absolutely zip nada and the stress returned, Yikes just in time for Jarod's return from the Army. It's been kinda of rough lately with Jarod's likely bipolar problems mixed in with my own stress level. I AM back on the Abilify but It doesn't seem like it's kicked in yet. I have been running roung the house non stop "perfecting" even in the yard the last 3 days trimming, cutting, racking, composting etc. Yah, the house and yard are looking pretty but I am definitely in go go go mode and it's not coool.

    Anyway it's just been so long since I gave yall a holar and I always miss yall after a few months go by plus there's so much to update on lately...I Can't believe all of my children are back at home! I think husband and I make it way to cushy for them.

    Hope everyone here is doing well these days. Yall never are far from my thoughts.
    Lovemysons (Tammy) and My daughter too!

    ps...I originally posted in the Sub Abuse forum this morning but thought I would reach even more "old" friends, smile, on the watercooler too.
    And...the reason for my smily face icon is cause it's so good to be here with you all again.
  2. crazymama30

    crazymama30 Active Member

    Wow. I hope your medications kick in soon, that go go go mode is bad. I watched husband go through it. Geodon worked for him but gave him tardive, and Abilify has been great. That gave him akinsthiea (sp, kinda like go go mode) but it went away. Anyhow, I have not been there done that, but have been there, seen that. Hugs.
  3. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Ugh Tammy...Im sorry things are coming back home to roost.

    Cant say that Im totally surprised at everything that has happened though. I had hoped that the Army would mature Jarod...or at least fatherhood would...but sigh.

    About your medications...I know that feeling well. Are you on a first line mood stabilizer or just the AP? I have to take the mood stabilizers and I just added on a small dose of seroquel which I think is helping me. Might be something to consider asking about.
  4. everywoman

    everywoman Active Member

    It's good to see you, even if the conditions that brought you back are not good. Detachment, my friend, is the name of the game. You seem to be able to do that with Jess---but you need to practice a little more with the boys. I hope that your medications kick in soon. If not, head to SC---my house and yeard could use you!
  5. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    Aww, thanks Crazymama, yah it's a restless situation for me right now. It's always comforting to know when someone truly "gets it", thank you for the hugs. Hey and sorry I said something about reaching "old" friends on the watercooler...I'm open to meeting and making "new" friends too! smile.

    Yah too. I mean, we were all pretty impressed that he even made it through Basic training but after he left for Germany I really thought that Maybe this WAS it for him...the right move, right fit, etc. But unfortunately he couldn't handle it. Now, uhg, he likes to suggest all the time that he is Better Than his older brother, Josh, cause HE went into the Army not into Prison. I have gently told him that he is Not "better than" he just made different choices.
    I also have tried several times to encourage him to visit my dr about the possibility that he needs medications...for Bipolar. He is like that Tazmanian Devil and he literally bounces down the stairs, storms into a room etc. My nerves are so frayed with him around...I hate to say that but it's true. I wish he would get some help.

    As far as my medications go I am only on the Abilify now. I was taking Lexapro and Abilify the last time I was on it before trying the Geodon but the Lexapro gave me "restless leg syndrome" and it was miserable trying to get to sleep at night. Maybe I will ask my dr about the Seroquel and see what she says...though if it causes weight gain, More weight gain, I just don't know. hmmm. Thanks for the suggestion.

    everywoman, You're funny. I got a laugh out of your offer to come to SC to do some house and yard work. Yah, it's been like 2 years since my house looked this good, lol.
    I'll see what I can do about the detachment...I used to go to Al Anon all the time when Josh was in prison, not so much since my breakdown last year. But, I Really loved Al Anon...met so many wonderful moms and dads who were in the same boat or similar as me plus learned a great deal about how to talk to my kids and all the lil cliches became ingrained and part of what I practiced...I need those reminders so maybe I'll make a meeting again sometime soon.

    Meanwhile...In a Lil while, I am expecting M and baby Joey to come over and visit me. I Finally talked to M yesterday. I was starting to get concerned that she was taking it out on Jarod had treated her...but she said no that she had just been very busy lately. She and Joey turn 22 and 1 yr old on the same day, Nov 7th...Yep, Joey was born on M's birthday last year. He is the sweetest lil soul...I so wish Jarod had his priorities straight. Makes me particularly sad since I grew up without my dad...Meeting him at age 17. It left me feeling like I was not worthy of being loved well.
    These were the secret conclusions I came to at about age 12/13...The absence of a parent can be so hard on a child. I just don't know how involved Jarod will be with Joey at this point but I hope that he can seperate M from Joey and realize that anything he says around Joey about M will conflict him and harm him emotionally. All that I "know" though is unfortunately mine to know and not really taken into account by Jarod. I wish we could somehow transfer our own life experiences and lessons learned down to our children so they would not repeat vicious family cycles. Thanks for your reply, blessings to you too!

  6. Estherfromjerusalem

    Estherfromjerusalem Well-Known Member

    Hey Tammy, it is so good to see you again. It's been a long time . . .

    Your update is very sobering, and I can only send you hugs and wish you lots of strength. Your grandson sounds lovely and I hope he gives you a lot of joy, and that you carry on seeing him often.

    I also hope that your medicines stabilize your situation ASAP. In your situation, and with everything that's going on in your household, it is top priority that you look after yourself.

    Sending you a big hug,

    Love, Esther
  7. Lothlorien

    Lothlorien Active Member Staff Member

    Good to see you on the board again. It's good to hear updates from you, when you can. I hope the Abilify works for you again. Hopefully, the boys can finally get their acts together and move out and onward.
  8. LittleDudesMom

    LittleDudesMom Well-Known Member Staff Member


    glad you came and gave us an update. Sorry to hear about Jarod. I know your hope, as well as the hopes of those of us that have known you for years, was that the service would teach him responsibility, committment, and consequences. But, he is a stubborn one for sure.

    I'm sorry to hear the medication change is not working and also came at a very stressful time. You know Tammy, the boys back living at home is adding tons of stress to your life - not to mention what it may be doing to easy child. Have you considered booting these boys out? Josh is old enough to be on his own and making those bad choices without all you wittnessing them. Why did he come back rather than get a place on his own? And Jarod can certainly be on his own after being in the military. I hate to agree with you, but you said it - you and husband make it too easy for them.

    If they are always able to rely on you, they will never be able to rely on themselves. I know you know this in your head, but when the heart is involved it's always harder. Get yourself strong and lay down the law for your boys so that they can begin to become men.

    Glad easy child is doing well in school and she and her dad are getting along. I know it was touch and go for a while there. Won't be long until she is making those college choices!

    Again, thanks for the update and I hope you are able to make some progress with your health. Stay strong.

  9. Fran

    Fran Former desparate mom

    Hi Tammy, it's good to see you return when you need to. It's no wonder you had a psychotic break. I almost had one reading your post.(little joke there). My heart hurts for you and the behavior that surrounds and almost drowns you.
    With every positive step we feel hopeful and then it crashes but hopefully they will learn and grow. Problem is always with the colletaral damage they leave behind.
    Your boys are very, very young. Even a easy child being married at 18 is a disaster waiting to happen most times. Your boys were not equipped for the impulsive decisions they made and certainly weren't equipped for parenthood.
    Mindy needs to take care of herself and her son. Hopefully she will allow you to be a part of the baby's life but she shouldn't allow herself to be used. A second pregnancy is just around the corner with another child who won't know his dad and will have to go without. She did nothing to earn his disdain and she doesn't deserve to be used.

    My hugs go out to you. I know admitting to bipolar and a psychotic break is difficult but you are among friends. Acceptance is here. Not that we won't disagree but we understand each other as a group. Take the support that you need.

    Your life is a juggling act for sure. I'm sorry it's so tough.
  10. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    Hi Esther... thank you So Much for your concern. I hope my medications start working again too. I DO get alot of joy from my grandson Joey, he is so precious. Hug back to you, Love Tammy

    Lothlorien, yes I too am hoping the boys can get their acts together and move on soon...though that will be a challenge when husband has to let them go (as far as their employment with husband). husband has not told the boys yet that after Dec 5th he will no longer be able to keep them on...have no idea how they will support themselves and no telling when Jarod can move out. Josh plans on moving into an apartment with his new girlfriend in 2 weeks but have no idea how he will make it either after he loses his job with husband. Josh also has fees associated with his probation upon release from prison, plus he has accumulated quite a few speeding tickets...forgot to mention Josh also totalled the truck husband bought for the boys last year. Thank you for your reply, hugs, Tammy

    Littledudesmom...Hi, good to see you again too. When Josh was released from Prison Rehab last year, he moved in with us...then, within about 5 months he moved into an apt in Dallas with his "wife". That lasted about 2 months. Then he moved in with 2 other fellas...but stole one of the fellas girlfriend. Now he is back at home and still seeing the girlfriend which he plans on moving into an apt with in 2 weeks.
    As for Jarod...he has no place to go and money will run dry as of Dec 5th. He also has loans he took out while in the military and has been paying M close to 800 a month for she and Joey. I agree, it is too cushy/comfy here and yes, I do have concerns for easy child. She lived with so much trauma around her years would be nice to think it is all behind us but but with Josh and Jarod in the same never know what will happen next. To "boot" them out...would mean the streets. At this time I don't want to go that far.
    Yes, I am so glad easy child, Jessie and husband are getting along again. She is such a good girl, just a really wonderful person. Not sure how we ended up with 2 wild ones and one very responsible lovely young lady. Mixed bag for sure.
    Thank you...I will stay strong, as strong as I can. Hugs, Tammy

    Fran! Hi there, good to see you. LOL about you almost having a psychotic break reading my post, too funny. Nah, I don't really know Why it happend to me. I have long suspected though that mental illness runs in my bio dads side of the family. He is an alcoholic and from all I know about him has had many problems his whole life. Jarod looks eerily similar to the bio dad...and it would appear that Jarod is also on the fast pace to becoming an alcholic himself.
    You are so right about Mindy...she doesn't deserve Jarod's treatment. I have watched tears stream down her face as she has shared with me her desperate desire to be a family with Jarod...That is heartbreaking. I think, if he would have her, that she would allow herself to be treated horribly by Jarod Just to have him in she and Joey's life. So, in some ways I am grateful that Jarod wants nothing to do with her now. I so wish she would find a nice young man man, to share her life with, to father Joey etc. I have tried many times over the past year on "girls night" ...which is generally every Tuesday night at my mom's place where she, Jess, myself and my mom usually ew and ah over Joey all night and play cards and watch TV have dinner. My mom has also talked to Mindy about her 2 years with my bio dad and the lessons she learned fromt that experience. I suppose the realization that Jarod is not husband/father material at this time has really not kicked in yet.
    Mindy didn't make it over with Joey yesterday but said she may come over today...I hope so, she really is a dear person to me and a GREAT mamma. She genuinely enjoys spending time with Joey, they have a wonderful relationship.

    Yes Fran...accepting that I have Bipolar and had psychosis has been difficult. Jess always says "Everything happens for a reason"...though I haven't figured out the reason for my psychosis. I have had to reavaluate former beliefs has strained my relationship with G-d. As much as it bothers me to admit that as well.
    Realizing that when I had the psychotic break...a few hundred years ago they may have stoned me to death. A hundred years ago they may have just locked me up, straight jacket and all. I am extremely grateful to life in this age of modern medicine. The relief I felt, the smile that took over my whole face when I first saw my family after coming out of the psychosis...after finally letting them give me medicine, it was such a freeing relief. How scary it would have been to have "stayed that way". Jarod said that when that happend to me that he felt like his mom had died, was no longer there.
    Sadly, husband who is NO Caregiver, let me down during that time. He refused apparently to hospitalized me for over 2 days while I suffered. He says that he thought maybe I had been "slipped a bad drug" and would come out of it. He did not want the hospital bills. By the time he was ready to take me to the hospital, I, in my head thought he was going to take me to the edge of town and bury me...he had a shovel sticking out of the back of the truck, this is where my head was. I jumped out of the truck at a stop light...husband called the police, they came and surrounded the truck and I tried to grab and officers gun and shoot myself. Fran, it was so horrible. Poor Jarod and Mindy at the time were driving down the road and parked behind this "scene" and not knowing what was happening to me. There is more but I won't get into right here right I stated before, it was mental torture, my mind had turned on me and there was nothing I nor anyone that loved me could do about it. I really was at the mercy of doctors and medications.

    And Fran...I don't know that my life is that tough...I pretty much accept what we have been dealt at this point. Which is a far cry from the person I used to be, always looking for the why this happend and who to blame etc. It is what it is...and my life isn't so horrible. I have a beautiful family with lots of drama, smile. But my sweet easy child, Jess, always trys to remind me that many if not all family's have some sort of issue(s). Just so often it's behind closed doors and a "front" is put on...I think she's right.
    I really have Alot to be grateful's not perfect and I don't expect it to be anymore either. in my humble opinion, People are really not fully good are bad, just a combination and sometimes one or the other is more predominant. My sons aren't bad. They aren't dead either. So there is still plenty to be hoeful about...Now, when things happen, I try and laugh and say "that's life".

    Anyway, you have always been such a wise soul here on the board for me, Fran. I thank you for always caring and sharing your insights.
    Looking forward to reading a update on you and your family soon. Hopefully all is well. Love, Tammy
  11. Fran

    Fran Former desparate mom

    As you say, it is what it is. We have to deal with it.
    I'm so glad you did get what you needed and are back on a more stable ground. What a terrible experience for you and frightening for your family.
    Problems tend to resurrect when someone doesn't want to take the medications. Hopefully, you want to stay on them. difficult child's doctor did tell us that sometimes when one goes off a certain prescription, it may not reconnect as quickly or as well as the first time. Perhaps this is what happened with Abilify.
    Girl's night sounds fun. I need a sister fix soon. I miss "the girls" but we are in 3 different states.
    As far as an update on me, I tend to think my life is like a bad country/western song these past 18months, but we are doing pretty well in general. It's just some challenges and obstacles. Hope is always there for the next day to be better.

    Good luck to you and I hope aren't a stranger. It's nice to see a familiar face to mix in with the wonderful new ones.
  12. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    I'm so happy to see you, Tammy. It would be nice to read that you all
    were staring in a new TV version of "Happy Days" :D but, alas, it doesn't seem to be. LOL

    Once your medications are straight I think that a return to Al Anon might be a great choice for you. I'm not sure if it is appropriate or possible but I also think that you need to seek our a church that allows Tammy to make friends with G-d again....without anybody else steering the friendship! There are so many different churches that have different personalities of their own, just like people. Your disenchantment and fears, I think, are more related to the congregation that surrounded you rather than your beliefs. Sometimes I have gone to just spend time sitting (me, myself and I) in churches when nobody was there. It allowed me to feel my own feelings. Perhaps it would help you too.

    It would be wonderful if Mindy could learn about detachment and the message of Al Anon. Like you she sounds as though she is so loving and giving that she probably is too vulnerable to fast talking, handsome dudes.
    Your grandson is blessed. Sending hugs and a prayer. DDD
  13. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    Tammy, it's so nice to see you again.
    OMG, so much has happened in such a short time!

    My heart breaks for you ... and for Mindy.

    I cannot believe how "up" your note sounds after all you've been through. You know, with-bipolar and other disorders, you still have an underlying personality and yours is definitely sweet and upbeat!

    She called asking for some money yesterday but Jarod has decided that if he buys diapers, formula, new car seat etc. that he doesn't need to hand her hundreds of dollars per month.

    This is very typical. A judge will need to set him straight. My little sister's ex used to drop off huge boxes of toys and diapers on the curb and then drive away. He hoped the judge would be lenient. Yeah, right.

    I hope you do not get involved in all of that. It must be so hard for you to see your sweet grandson in the middle of it. Sigh.

    It does sound like there is a genetic component to your illness, as well as your son's. It may have been a blessing in disguise that you had the psychotic break. (So sorry about your husband's lack of response though. Boo, hiss!)
    I hope your new medications kick in quickly and that they even things out. I know you get a lot done when you're manic but you really need your sleep. I hope you can get at least a few hrs of rest at night.

  14. Lothlorien

    Lothlorien Active Member Staff Member

    Wow, Tammy....the psychosis sounds like a really scary thing that you went through. I'm so happy for you that you and your family have all come to grips with the situation and you are dealing with it the right way. I just want to give you a great big hug, right now.
  15. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    Fran...You say your life is like a "bad country/western song these past 18 months", hmmm, got MY curiosity peaked! Good to hear that life in general is not too bad.
    I'll try and not be as much of a stranger...It really is comforting to always feel at home here, my internet roots belong to Conduct Disorders, lol. And of course you are such an important part of the board for me. You tried to talk some sense into me when I was ever so stubborn and hardheaded in my own thinking...but you gently proded me into considering new ideas, I will always be grateful for the time you took caring about me in the well as many others that are dear to me here.

    DDD, LOL about starring in a new tv version of "Happy Days", ya right, giggles. It's more like the "Bizarre life and times of Tammy and the 4 J's". lol.

    As for church, while it's true that I had "issues" with my former pastor, I also have issues with some of the aspects of my psychotic break and the "storyline" if you will of the whole episode. Basically, "G-d and the D were fighting for my soul and the D was winning...I literally saw my mom, and husband turn into the D and smelled Hell when I walked out of my was like a furnace burning smell. I was hallucinating and all my senses were used in the hallucination. Even while in the hospital I lay in a bed feeling nails in me feet and hands as though I were being crucified. So you see, it really was detailed and religiously based this psychosis I was in...I even heard G-d talking to me through the radio and at one point thought I was supposed to let go of the steering wheel in order to prove my faith and trust in G-d. I was very lucky that I was not killed during this episode. Plus...What would "they" have done to me a few thousand years ago...I likely would have been deemed possessed or something. It just...the whole thing made me back away from religion. I still believe in G-d, a creator and a devine purpose for life...I just have problems with the details, etc. Anyway...I'll work it out eventually.

    Thank you for considering me so loving and giving like about being vulnerable to fast talking handsome dudes. You know me well! smile. I'm so blessed that Joey is in my/our lives...he is a bright spot in everyone's day that surrounds him.
    Hugs and love to you, Tammy

    Hi Terry thank you for the compliments about being so sweet and upbeat. Yall really put a smile on my face as caring as you all are.
    You are SO right about a judge making Jarod pay dollars and not just "dropping off" what he deems as necessary for Joey's care. I suspect court will come about in the next few months and change his "ideas".
    Oh, it really does bother me that lil Joey could be "victimized" in this whole situation. As I stated before...Kids internalize/personalize why things happen. So often times, especially when they don't have a councelor or someone they can reveal their deepest thoughts too...who has insight and good understanding, well, so often times kids will conclude that their was something about THEM that caused a father to be absent or unavailable. When I was young I though..."maybe I was a bad baby, maybe I was an ugly baby, maybe he wanted a boy instead of a girl"...all sorts of horrible conclusions that eventually lead me to believe that I was just not worthy, not important enough, to love. It wasn't til adulthood that I realized that it had Nothing to do with me or my was all his lacktherein. But what ALOT of pain I went through as a young person and particularly a struggling hormonal teen girl...seeking that "love" from males who often disappointed me just as the biodad had.
    Dr phil says paraphrasing something along the lines of "we teach people how to treat us and we look for people to treat us in a way that we believe we truly deserve to be treated" that was certainly true for myself.
    I guess...My hope is that if this situation with Jarod and Joey plays out as I currently suspect...that maybe just maybe I will be given an opportunity along the way to share my thoughts in hope that it may emotionally empower lil Joey and help him realize that it was never about him that caused his parent to be unavailable. The situation does sadden me...but, it's not here yet so I suppose I shouldn't dwell on it just be ready if/when I am ever asked to share on this subject.

    You couldn't be more right about getting alot done when I'm manic but needing a few hours of sleep a night...I go to bed around 11, wake up at around 2...stay awake until around 3 and then wake up for good around 6:30am. This, even with some Ambien that the Dr prescribed me last time I saw her. Thank you for the care and the hugs, Terry...hugs back to ya!

    Aw Lothlorien, your hug warmed me and made me smile. Hugs back to ya.
  16. Fran

    Fran Former desparate mom

    Tam, I read(SA forum) that difficult child 2 doesn't think too highly of his wife's previous lifestyle before marriage. You could remind him that he wasn't too selective himself. She stepped up with motherhood which is less than he is doing. He has some arrogance to feel superior. Sheesh.

    Nothing much to be curious about with me. We moved, remodeled a house, easy child took a gap year from college to work, difficult child returned home because he wasn't working the program, mom got sick, dog is terminal with cancer, and my house blew away in the storm(Galveston/hurricane Ike) Doesn't that all sound like a bad country western song.

    I'm glad you remember that we are here. I have fond memories of our visits especially when Esther visited. Someday it may happen again. No reason not to visit Dallas someday.

    Hang in there and don't let all that testosterone contaminate you into thinking they are superior.

    I am so sad for your hallucinations. It seems religion and the forces of evil are a common hallucination. Not sure why but it's not that unusual. Scary nonetheless.