difficult child just called

[klmno]

He said PO came to sese him yesterday and told him that I refuseed to sign the parole plan. Now true, I didn't sign it and PO and I never had the first conversation about it. He never said I needed to or anything. When he sent it to me was when I responded, that evening, with that letter of questions which he refused to answer and only sent the email back saying they wouldn't change anything. No clarification or anything addressing my questions- he just has me listed as refusing to sign. See, he's going to look for reasoons, even if he has to set me up or manipulate me into it, to find me noncompliant and the ultimate objective, in my humble opinion, is to try to prevent difficult child from ever returning to my custody. Further, he told difficult child that this counseling he's starting up, that we are supposed to meet about Monday, won't even start until after the 20th of this month. difficult child said PO's doing everything he can to hold things up. Of course he wants difficult child looking at it like it's my fault things are held up. The part I don't understand is that if PO/super are doing this just because they don't want to work with me, then why not just change the PO/super involved? They can keep claiming all this but what they don't understand, apparently, is that I've sent copies of the written stuff to the higher ups and it clearly shows my questions and stating things that I do prefer a different provider but not if it's going to hold up things for difficult child getting passes or released. It doesn't say that I'm not willing to sign anything. But when he says to contact him if I have questions, this is how it always ends up.

I've sent an email to landlord saying I think I'll need to movee out early and asking him to work something out. I have a place lined up to look at tomorrow and phone calls made (VM) to try so see a couple of others. No matter what, moving is cheaper than what it will end up costing me to stick with this PO.

I seriously can't believe this all started over me stating difficult child absolutely had to have services this time. Had I known, I'd just kept my mouth shut and taken my chances....but then I wouldn't have known what a snake I'm dealing with until it was too late so maybe this is for the best.

 

[buddy]

you couldn't have known. So now, can you just back out of any of it??? This guy is incredibly manipulative. Does difficult child see through any of it??? Does he understand that you just delayed signing it to avoid his being stuck in an unworkable, ineffective and indefinite plan?

 

[klmno]

Oh it doesn't mean the plan isn't in effect- the parent doesn't have to agree with the parole plan. Now, the counseling he's ordered is a different story- they can't do that unless I agree. I am required to go to the mtg on Monday and will do so. Hopefully, I'll be able to announce that I'm moving then. As soon as I get a lease on something that is vacant so I can run over and stick a box in it, I can start the process of having difficult child's PO file transferred. This PO will hold that up as long as he can so we're looking at probably a mo before they get his file, only because I think this PO is set on throwing a wrench in anything he can. In the meantime, it won't be holding much up because this PO got a flippin counselor ordered without calling to find out how long it would take to get started anyway, apparently. So, if I do sign agreement to do this counseling, we'd have probably 1-2 sessions under this PO. But, if I can make sure I'm not being documented as noncompliant for this, I'd prefer to wait until I'm moved and under a different PO before anything like that gets locked in.

I researched the type of intensive family therapy he ordered. It was developed for families where kids have been bounced from foster homes and Department of Juvenile Justice due to having been exposed to violence as children and the core of it is to change the parents' value system and it lasts about 6 mos. Now, while I can see that they get the trauma aspect and violence in the home aspect, I think it's a tad different when difficult child didn't grow up in a violent home and he was the agressor toward me and funny how no one has ever said the problem was my value system. Actually, when we trialed MST therapy, that guy wrote down my values as my strenght or good quality. LOL!

But, PO making assumptions and running with it even when it doesn't seem logical is true to his form. It's not the lady's fault though, from this program, so I'll be nice to her. I'm praying that I can go in and listen about her services and how wonderful and helpful it is and ask 1 or 2 really simple questions, stress how my main concern is to get an appropriate and useful plan for difficult child, say I'm moving but will keep this wonderful opportunity in mind in case the next PO would like to discuss it as an option. Then leave.

I'll visit difficult child tomorrow and tell him this is a possibility, just so he won't be floored on Monday if it happens, but will just tell him it's a slight possibility so he won't get set on it happening.

 

[buddy]

oh I see.... so, (forgive me...I get a little lost in the details but really do care so want to understand)... you had said you needed to make sure that moving would actually make things change and not cause a problem (I can't remember what you said could maybe be a reason not to move....) so does that mean you for sure know that things would change and when you decide where to move to, does it mean you can pick an area that you know has better services, or is it that you just want any new po you can get....

 

[klmno]

The PO would definitely change and that's what I had to verify before pursuing this. Now whether or not that PO would keep pursuing this type counseling, I don't know. But that PO would have to write a new parole plan even if he/she chose to copy this one- which I'm banking on it that they wouldn't. Even if they did, there still wouldn't be the mistrust and koi from the hx with this PO. If we got lucky, the new PO would not just continue on with this plan. Each jurisdiction has a pool of funding so the new PO would have to re-evaluation whether or not that jurisdiction's pool had something different available. In any case, even with that taking a few weeks, at most, difficult child still would not come out later than this PO is allowing. The main thing is that once difficult child is released, we aren't stuck with this PO. And if this PO had his way, difficult child would never be reeleased to me.

The parole supervision plan is not the same as the individual service plan a counseling uses. For instance, the parole plan is supposed to include requirements for parole- let's say that was to work full time, be home by 6:00PM, and go thru intensive outpatient substance abuse program. The counselor at the substance abuse program would then develop more of a MH plan called an individual service plan with specific goals for counseling. This waasn't difficult child's requirement, I'm just using it as an example. If the PO changes, the PO may or may not elect to still require the substance abuse program or might elect to require AA/NA mtgs instead. The reason that is left up to the PO is because in this case, nothing like that was court ordered and PO is supposed to be going by what the Department of Juvenile Justice facility difficult child just came out of recommended.

My issues with his parole plan were twofold. One was that they weren't all that close to what was recommended- he took what they recommended then kind of went haywire with it. Secondly, instead of writing "attend all sessions with substance abuse counselor and test negative on all drug tests for 6 mos", for instance, he wrote must understand importance of changing behavior and koi like that in the parole supervision plan, which again, is not the same as the indiviidualuized MH plan. Being that he wrote those things as parole requirements tthat way, it makes it impossible to measure whether a person is compliant or not and all that goes against Department of Juvenile Justice regs- which are adopted into law. One of ther recs from Department of Juvenile Justice was family stabilization. PO ordered this provider who does one particular model program which I described below. Of course there are plenty others out there to choose from which is it doesn't seem so logical that he would choose this one but who knows- it's not getting services I'm fighting to change. It's the being set up for failure and him trying to find a way to prevent difficult child from returning to my custody ever that I'm fighting to get changed.

Now, if difficult child's individualized service plan (which the counselor does) hasn't been written before PO gets changed, there's more of a chance that the new PO will review the entire parole plan and everything.

 

[buddy]

Thanks, I am happy for you then that you at least have that opportunity (though of course moving in and of itself is so stressful) to dump this jerk. I agree the ambiguous, lofty goals were nice ideas in life, but not measurable, concrete goals... even if he wanted to do it the old fashioned way where you write a lofty goal but at least put concrete objectives to achieve the goal....like the examples you gave...it would at least have defined what the heck he meant by all of that.

I really hope you get what you deserve here...someone who gives a darn and will make this a realistic plan for him.

Hang in there...this just HAS to get better.

 

[klmno]

that's the sort of goal that is the basis of the individualized service plan for the counselor. So yes, they are important but don't belong in the form stating parole requirements. The PO isn't a counselor. Thinik about court cases- like Casey Anthony, for example. Her PO could order her to go see a therapist and might think she needs some work on her level of empathy so he can tell the counselor that and it would become a goal for counseling. But, the poarole plan should state "attend counseling 1xperweek for 1 year, not "develop more empathy" because there is no way to measure that and the PO could violate her because she was in a bad mood one day.

This PO has not written nor stated what, in measurable terms, difficult child has to do in order to get a day pass or be released. He has to show he's adjusted to the detention center and is improving in therapy. OK- for how long and what criteria are you using to determine that so we can know how to be compliant? PO has ALWAYS been this way- no answer- his super jumps in and says "when they feel like it". The law requires them to tell us booth, in writing, at entry into any program or center- which would include the detention center and again for this counseling.

 

[HaoZi]

What a mess. Did you ask your landlord if he has any properties in the other district by chance? I hope difficult child doesn't think you're trying to sabotage him.

 

[donna723]

I've been reading along in all this for a long time and haven't replied because I think I got lost in the details too, but is the juvenile system THAT different from the adult system? None of this makes any sense to me! Can they just have "open ended" sentences in the juvenile system? Did he not have a definite ending date for his sentence? Is he going to be officially on "parole"? And if he's not, why on earth does he have a parole officer? And even if he is technically going to be going out on parole, he should still have a definite ending date to his sentence.

I guess it's not really important that I understand it but I was just trying to figure it all out. I always assumed the juvenile system worked pretty much like the adult system but maybe not. In the adult system they meet the parole board and the parole board may stipulate certain programs, like anger management, that they want them to participate in before parole is granted. If they fulfill the requirements, they meet the board again and a parole date is set. And they will go out ON THAT EXACT DAY unless they do something stupid like get a write-up or fail a drug test. But if they're finishing their entire sentence ("flattening") - that sentence has a definite end date. And they will leave on that date, no matter what! We've had some that got up out of a hospital bed to be released. We've even had some leave straight from Maximum Security and walk out right through the front door! We cannot legally keep them even one day past that release date! If one of them was behaving like an a**hole, they could theoretically keep them until 11:59 pm on that day but at midnight they'd have to be outta there!

 

[klmno]

It's very different in some ways but similar to what you're saying in the sense that difficult child was required to do an anger man course and substnace abuse course prior to getting approval for release- also, he had to maintain good behavior for a min of 90 days prior to release. He had his release signed off on. The only person who can over-ride it under those circumstances is the director of Department of Juvenile Justice because he's considered a ward of the state, being a juvenile. The PO called the Department of Juvenile Justice facility and said the director emailed and agreed difficult child should have services so send him to detention reentry.

Now, our Department of Juvenile Justice system is split into two branches- the facility side (incarceration) and the court/csu side (the POs). A judge can either set the sentence length or let Department of Juvenile Justice do it and they let Department of Juvenile Justice do it, which menas the facility side uses this computer method to establish difficult child's sentence. IF in fact, the director over-rode the release date, WTH wouldn't she have called the facility herself and told them? She didn't- if she had, she would have had to give them a new projected release date because it's law here that every juvenile have a projected release date established. The staff at the Department of Juvenile Justice facility told me and difficult child that they changed his date to "dot dot dot" because they didn't know what else to do. The PO and others looked at difficult child's file and said well, the longest they could hold him was for the 21 mos so now PO is acting like he'll take his time and keep difficult child until May. And I'd bet my arm that POs real plan is to use this time trying to build a case that difficult child should never be returned to my custody. This stems from PO going off at me saying he had custody of difficult child while he was on parole and I flat out told him that no, he didn't. difficult child is no longer a ward of the state once released from incraceration and although he is monitored by PO and PO can violate him, difficult child is in my custody. I think both this PO and his super are used to working as probation officers, before a kid gets incarcerated so they have been able to jerk parents around and treat them like koi with the threat of having their kid incarcerated if they don't jump thru their hoops. Now, the only thing PO has to use is trying to prove difficult child shouldn't be in my custody but that has to be reviewed and approved by a judge and that's why he's trying to get documentation that I'm not cooperating. But I've got my own paper trail established and have attended every required mtg. I just haven't signed that parole plan but if that goes to court, we can then see what a judge thinks about that parole plan.

difficult child was give a range for a sentence- 15 to 21 mos I think it was. If he hadn't have completed his anger man course and sub abuse course, he would have had to stay incarcerated until May 16 then get released on parole under the condition that he completes those two courses while on parole.

He completed them already and was due to get out but this PO is now keeping him in until May 16 and one of his requirements while on parole will be a fourth anger man course.

All these things are in my complaints to Department of Juvenile Justice, aclu, and fed doj. I have found law after law that has been broken. State Department of Juvenile Justice and aclu have already stated they aren't going to do squat about it. I haven't heard back from fed doj yet.

As far as being ion parole- that does work differently here in the juvy system- there's no getting out of that. difficult child will be on parole until he's at least 18.

difficult child got to call again and told me some more about what PO has been saying. He's telling difficult child things like I am holding things up and attacking him but he's not going to let that slow him down and that's why he didn't take the time to answer any of my questions and difficult child said he's always trying to get difficult child to agree with him about stuff like this. But difficult child has it figured out and said his PO was avoiding answering his questions directly and always saying it's up to someone else- I went ahead and told him I'm going to try to move.

I just want to get in a situation where difficult child and I are spending our time and mental energy on what we should be instead of stressing over this PO doing under-handed koi like holding up difficult child's release by telling me a long term post d GH is a 30-60 day GH and when he knew I wouldn't agree with that and it required my written permmission- in Dec- sat there and didn't do squat about a transition parole plan or anything. BS he isn't the one holding things up.

 

[DDD]

I can't tell you how badly I feel for difficult child. He shouldn't be in the postion of having to "choose" between his Mom and the PO or the system. That's too much pressure for any kid. DDD

 

[klmno]

And one more reason why I think moving is a good idea. I'm always going to be his mom. When things get this personal and heated- in a bad way, obviously- between the PO of a juvenile and the parent, and the parent has filed legal complaints against the PO, it should be policy to change the PO, in my humble opinion, because obviously, the PO is going to have a conflict of interest at that point. But they refused. Apparently PO thinks it's easier to go to court and get the parent out of the picture. Nope- not enough grounds for that one. So, I'll just move.

difficult child and I are in agreement his PO after his first release didn't play this sort of koi, leveled with us even if we weren't always in agreement, etc. I do think he should have gotten some transitional things in place but he swears they weren't available at the time. Still, we never spent time stressing over what under-handed things he might be doing because we could trust him. Even though difficult child got recommitted, it was thru difficult child's own actions and that PO can't be blamed. Given the experience with the probation officer who wouldn't do squat when she could have and then that first parole officer, it's pretty clear to me when we are being set up. And I reminded difficult child about his first probation officer (not the bad one) and we agreed she was very good. I did this to point out to him that we need to remember, they aren't all this way but when the red flags are there that they are looking to throw one or both of us under the bus, we need to find a legal way to get the PO changed.

I tried jumping thru all the hoops of that probation officer while still fighting for difficult child to get adequate services which she refused to do anything about and you see where it landed us both. Never again will I go thru that or put difficult child thru it. And it's a little ironic- both that probation officer and this PO's super made the identical comment when I was discussing services before- "it has to be their idea". Well, their idea was to do nothing. And I complained. And they retaliated.

To address your concern more specifically, I have told difficult child this time and with that probation for him not to refuse to sign anything. If he really isn't comfortable with it, then ask if he can think about it a while first. But I don't want him ddoing anything like that giving them reason to say he's not cooperating. I'll fight that fight- I'm not the one on parole. And our state law does require parental permission or agreement for a lot of this stuff- they just won't tell you that- just like with that GH. They can't order me to give up custody of my kid. A judge can, but a PO does not have the legal authority to. If there had been valid reason, he could have gone to a judge but he didn't and he knew there wasn't valid reason. DDD, thisd guy has gotten way to big for his britches.

 

[DDD]

You are the Mom. I'm not even a personal friend or blood relative...just a cyber family member. on the other hand, lol, since the stakes are high I figure you need to have someone who presents food for thought instead of agreement. The situation is Godawful for sure....and now very complex on multiple levels.

If it's possible to pretend that you are not a participant in this situation (and it may not even be possible as obviously it is hugely important to you with good cause) either mentally or using a pad and pencil (if that helps you like it does me) reconstruct the interactions. BM, BC, PO#1 etc. etc. to help gain a sense of the problem with-o personalities. Just chart it out with boxes or sentences or whatever in an attempt to separate yourself from the individuals...including you and difficult child.

Year, incident, coded participants, actions taken by BM, BC, PO, GAL etc. and reactions to that by each participant. Simple emotional and functional stances. Do it for each year with all relevant parties with the perspective of each party. Is this making sense, lol?

Get a cup of tea, take a break and then look at the pad and see how many "happy" "cooperative" time periods and people there are for the past x years. Compare that to the "angry" "anxious" "compative" etc. indicators there are for the same time period.

Chances are there will be few times reflected where you and the system were in sync. I'm not talking about "fault". I'm talking about patterns of interaction. Then add on the past few months where you have contacted State and Federal authorities. This is difficult child's file. This file goes with him no matter where you live. As an experienced and educated business woman imagine you are given a file that shows a volatile history of interactions, and the hint of impending investigation into your handling of that file. Would you be able to say "oh well I'm going to do a fantastic job helping this family and ignore the contents of the file"? Likely not. You would see a big red flag.

If a "geographic cure" meant you could be hooked up with a good PO, start from scratch with no file history and simply state "Nice to meet you. I am difficult child's Mom. He has recently been released from X and l would like a plan outlining what steps you'll require for our reunification" that would be great. It simply can't happen that way.

I very sincerely hope that you will take a little bit more time before jumping the familiar ship. There is a possibility that Monday's meeting "might" have positive aspects. in my humble opinion if you can get some issues ironed out where you are it will likely expedite difficult child's return home, it will save him from the additional trauma of relocation and likely it will "be over" sooner for you too. Additionally, sigh, going to the meeting and telling them "we're moving out of your area" is going to fuel the flames and add more commentary to difficult child's file.

Long post...sent with caring intent. DDD

 

[klmno]

DDD, I know you think the problem is me. It comes out in many ways. But the file does not convey what you just stated. I have complained about them all on this board, except the first probation officer. But the first parole officer and I got along and he actually backed me up in court. The only one I have ever sent in a formal complaint on is this one. The PO also will have access to difficult child's file from the Department of Juvenile Justice facilities- both showing no intereference from me.. I've NEVER been found non compliant. Now, this PO surelly has documentedd that I'm not cooperating with him but anybody can look and see that this wasn't documented until after I made a complaint about him and took that attny with me to the video conference and mtg in Dec. You might be right in the sense that a PO is going to automatically think this is all my fault. If you recall thoough, everyone here agreed that I should demand some sort of transitional services for difficult child to begin with. We'll just have to see how it plays out and I'm sure any long term in home service is going to be a PITA but I don't trust this PO as far as I can throw him and no service is going to work under the current circumstances. It has been my experience so far that all of the POs have formed their own relationship and opinion of me and it's never been the same as the previous one we just switched from. I realze that's no guarantee tthis time but again, I am thoroughly convinced the current situation is a disaster waiting to happen and can only hope that getting a new PO on board will help to at least form a plan that gives difficult child a chance at success. I'm sure you believe the current one does but I think the PO is a snake in the grass and is just trying to make it appear that he's done all he can but will make sure it doesn't work.

ETA: That's not to single you out- many others here might feel the same way as you but you are just the one bringing it forward.

 

[DDD]

"I know you think the problem is me" is truly not accurate. Honestly! As you and I and the whole family knows and have "talked" about it the majority of Department of Juvenile Justice parents are not particpatory. Therefore you are perceived by Department of Juvenile Justice (I think) as a "problem" parent. I don't think "the problem" is you. I think "the problem is Department of Juvenile Justice not accepting your participation and sharing specifics with you".

What I was suggesting is that you look like an outsider at the history over the years. Not seeking mea culpa moments but looking at the ebb and flow of the interactions. If I remember correctly you had one winner PO and three loser PO's. I clearly recall that you had a horrendous GAL. Everyone has entered notes in the file history. Your intentions, your interactions and the love in your heart will likely be noted by one PO. The "team" you have now feels threatened. As a result I am assuming their notations will indicate that you were uncooperative, not willing to sign off etc. etc. I am referring to their perceptions not mine. Let's not mix that up. I'm not a system team player!

If you want me to back off your posts for awhile again like I did some months ago I promise to respect your wishes. It is your journey. Not too many family members have dealt with Department of Juvenile Justice for an extended period and those lucky people have a less jaded view. in my humble opinion, it is not a level playing field. Sigh DDD

 

[klmno]

No it's ok- I'm not asking you to back off and appreciate your perspective, whether it differs from mine or not. Your last post helped clarify things a bit on this particular point you're trying to make. About the number of POs- I'm not sure we're on the same page but it's not all that important. I don't count the two that were only in the picture short-term while difficult child was incarcerated. The first one I'm referring to was already out of the picture by the time I joined this board, but she was very good. I am certain that last propbation officer documented things about like this current one has and that the first parole officer documented that I was cooperative and that the problems at home and with difficult child were not caused by me- I'm certain of that because it came out in court. Also, that PO stated to me that the probation officer hadn't documented things accurately, but who knows if that is clear in the file or not. I'm not sure anyone would even read that far back because that was before difficult child's first commitment and it was like pulling teeth to even get this PO to read about the circumstances of this commitment.

Just for clarity because I don't think I've worded this well- when I mention the possibility of a new PO re-writing tthe current parole plan, I am meaning in terms of taking the goals that this PO has written and listing them under the objectives category on the form, where tthey should be and most POs would know this; then actually writing the measurable criteria down in the cataegory where the form states "list how these goals are to be met and measured (what steps are to be taken and by who, when, and how)". Now every other PO has been able to do that. So, it's not the goals I'm fussing over or even necessarily these services, although a new PO may or may not re-evaluate that it's not my major concern. I am going to be cooperative with this service coordinator tomorrow and let her know that should I move and the new PO keep this service, maybe this will save us some time and I will cooperate with her provider. I would prefer waiting until a new PO is on board to write and lock in difficult child's individualized service plan but am not going to make a big stink out of that- actually I'm not sure that gets done prior to the counselor coming on board and from what PO told difficult child, that won't be until the end of this month anyway. (Mind you, PO had told me it would only take a few days to get started if he went with this service.) I do want to ask her if she's had experience with reentry cases and with cases where it's not a kid who has been removed from the home or became delinquent because he grew up in a violent household, which according to their website, that's what they specialize in. A well needed service, in my humble opinion, but I'm not sure it's the most appropriate one for us. That doesn't mean I'll say that at the mtg tomorrow. I might ask the question though.

Now, should a new PO assume this PO documented accurately and I'm the witch from hades, and I walk into our first and subsequent appts saying I moved due to too much conflict with that PO, I'm always on time and cooperative with him, sign his papers and move on, then he would have no reason not to back up his part. This onee on the other hand has a vendetta and point he wants to prove. There's just too much water under the bridge and he's alrready proven to me that he can't be trusted. IOW, as long as I'm cooperating with all these other people at some point things become obvious- they will be seeing how PO wrote this parole plan and they will be able to tell it's not written correctly. Just like at one of the mtgs when he called the GH a "step-down, post-d, reunification plan" which everyone in the mtg knew in this state, those are 3 distinct and different types of programs.

 

[TerryJ2]

OMG, how obnoxious. I guess this PO doesn't realize that difficult child calls you and that other people are involved in this and he doesn't live in a bubble?
Best of luck with-the mtng. Fingers crossed.

 

[exhausted]

Wow-Just sick! Hugs KLMNO-I don't know what to say other than ((Hugs)).

 

[klmno]

thank you all- you included, DDD! I hope I'm getting clearer in conveying why after all the misrepresentations and the mess with the release, it appears to me that writing the goals in the measurable criteria area and not having the measuarble criteria written anywhere in a plan that says difficult child will come back to live with me contigent upon successful completion of this plan, leaves a huge loophole for difficult child and I to jump thru hoops for 90 days and PO still come back and say we didn't complete this 6 mo program therefore difficult child shouuldn't return to my custody or we aren't progressing to his satisfaction, etc. I do believe this PO has shown ample reson to think he will do this- otherwise he would have written measurable criteria, right? I don't think a new PO would be likely to do it, as long as I don't tic that one off.

Terry, the impression I get is that he thinnks along the lines of "it doesn't matter if other people do it differently or what the law requires or anything else, I've got my unified front established and I'm in control". And as long as central office isn't doing anything to stop him or train him or anything, he just keeps going and going.

 

[klmno]

Just got back from seeing difficult child and am taking a short break before going to look at a condo to rent. difficult child saiid there is 1 other person bweing housed at detention center on this so-called reentry program. He is from the jurisdiction I'm going to move to. This boy has been there 3-4 days longer than difficult child, his counseling starts in about 1 week, and he gets a day pass on Friday. So obviously, the lady who wrote the email from Department of Juvenile Justice stating that "per her conversation with PO earlier in the week, difficult child will have to show adjustment to detention center and be far enough along in the sedrvices to be provided and sho progress in them prior to geetting a day pass" had already been set up by PO. Department of Juvenile Justice wouldn't tailor it for each kid on their own when the kid isn't even in their facility.