Hi from a newbie

[Marguerite]

AM I parinoid and just not letting the kid be a kid??

No. You will have learned with your daughter, that you should trust your mommy instincts. I agree with MidwestMom (as I often do) that an evaluation, from a neuropsychologist, would be beneficial. I also agree with whatamess that he has trouble transitioning. By this we mean that he has in his head, that a certain path of events will be happening. To mentally make that change causes him considerable difficulty and distress. This is what I was sensing from your earlier post, and is why I had mentioned Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) as a possibility. Whatever this is, I think Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) for now is a good working hypothesis. It may not turn out that he has enough for a diagnosis of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), but it is possible for an individual to have Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) traits but not enough for a diagnosis. That's what happened with our second daughter, although now she is older we firmly believe she is Asperger's, but as an intelligent adult, has adapted. Struggling somewhat at the moment, due to a need to learn to adapt further when she feels too stressed to do so. But that is as a young adult.

With your son (be careful to not use real names here - an alias leaves you much more free to vent when you need to, without alerting school, family, friends or others that it could be THEM making you angry) I would suggest you take into account his difficulty making transitions, and immediately put that on a red alert in your own mind and your husband's. It is not something you can discipline into him; it sounds like difficult child is well aware of his own flaws to the extent of seeing that aspect of himself as "bad". That is not good. He needs to realise that it's not his fault; that there is a switch in his head that is working a bit sluggishly, and you will help him learn, over time, how to work that switch more effectively. It's the switch from one task to another he has trouble with. You may find that even if the task he is doing is one he does not like, he still will have difficulty switching from an unpopular task to a popular one (say, from writing his lines to playing Wii) although of course the non-like to like pressure does make that transition easier!

Of course there is a lot more going on with him than simply a problem with transitions. But that can be your starting point.

WHat to do? Well, you just handled one event beautifully. So you're off to a good start. Plus (and you probably did this), when he does something good, praise him for it. Now you include quiet task-change in praise points. "Well done! You were able to postpone your Wii play and get your work done first!" Choose an appropriate time to say this, at the end of the required task is good. Be careful to not interrupt him. That is something we still struggle with, with husband and difficult child 3 both. Also with easy child 2/difficult child 2, even though she is an adult. They cannot cope with being interrupted. I remember husband's father was the same. If they are talking, or working on something quietly (which includes reading), it takes a major clash of mental gears to have to change task, and being asked something or spoken to can cause this clash. Also, when they are talking, if they are getting off topic or taking a while to get to the point, trying to hurry them can often only make it worse. husband & difficult child 3 both have speech dysfluencies which aggravate this. With difficult child 3, it's a hangover from his language delay (a hallmark of autism, when taken into account with his other Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) symptoms). With easy child 2/difficult child 2 she had no language delay but like her little brother, does have word retrieval problems.

A high IQ (although it may not show up in casual testing) is often found in the child, or in other family members. I mean, really high. And sometimes, the high IQ alone can bring headaches of its own. In easy child we have such a child - maybe two or three Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) traits but otherwise a easy child. However, at times she was a real headache to raise because she was so bright, she would argue her way into and out of anything. She also was very competitive and also at times insecure. easy child 2/difficult child 2 seemed even brighter - we had her accelerated into school - and drove us and her teachers crazy at times. easy child's first teachers found they had to keep her working constantly, she demanded more and more and it had to be stimulating and engaging. At one point she was working three grades above her own. If they didn't do this, she ran amok. She also was not the only kid in the class like this, although she was one of the top achievers in later years too.

This is not necessarily bad news, to use Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) (working hypothesis) to get you started. Even if it doesn't turn out to be Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), it's OK to start here and work from here. Your son has already shown he is loyal; loving; law-abiding; aware of good and bad and wants to be good; capable of intense focus and strength of purpose. The clash comes when you need to change his direction, and he has difficulty. His strength of purpose is so strong, that it causes difficulty. However, as he learns (through repeated experience) that when he gets his chores done, he gets to play his game (it won't be prevented permanently) he will find it easier to task-change.

I talk of working hypothesis - by this I mean, even if the label does not itself apply or has been ruled out, if it is currently the closest thing that seems to come anywhere near fitting, then use it as if it is the diagnosis, until you get a better fitting diagnosis. An example - my doctors were worried about me, said I had to lose weight. They said I was borderline diabetic and heading for gastric bypass. Now, I wasn't that big. And I wasn't yet diabetic. I wasn't yet suffering from severe liver disease although it was getting there. But in order for me to lose the weight, I had to live as if I already WAS diabetic, as if I already did have severe liver disease and as if I had already had gastric bypass (it was the only way I could cut portion size down - I had to live as if I had had the bypass but not have to actually endure the surgery). My working hypothesis was incorrect, but it still did the job for me and helped me lose weight.

I think you have made a wonderful start on helping your son. Also watch your other children for signs of transition difficulty, and try to ease them through it and not force it too hard.

Another trick that works for us - we used a Post-It note system. When difficult child 3 was playing a computer game (such as the Wii) and it was time for him to go have his bath, we learned to give him time to make the transition himself. But if we simply said to him, "difficult child 3, it's bath-time," he would either rage at the sudden imposed change, or not hear us. He might hear and respond automatically, but his brain was disengaged and it did not sink in, so alter on he would deny having been told. And he really did not remember having been told, even if we had heard him reply, "yeah, sure, I'll be there in a minute." It had been an automatic reply.
So we took to giving him advance warning. But we still had the problem of him insisting he had not heard the advance warning. So we stuck a Post-It note to the screen (in the corner where it doesn't get in the way). We would write on it the task needed (bath, or dinner) and the time he had been told. Or perhaps the time he had to go. Or both. Then when we reminded him and he said, "You never told me!" we could point to the note. Physical evidence. It helped him realise we were not making it up, and he did have a problem with transitioning that he hadn't fully appreciated.
Giving advance warning is still needed but he is now a lot better at watching the clock. Having a routine is also important. If you don't already have a routine, chances are your son has his own routine and it may not be one that you fully endorse. Your son's routine (held in his head) may be, "Get up. Get dressed. Eat breakfast. Play Wii all day."

Another interesting task change problem - meals. We have to remind difficult child 3 to eat. He's now in a routine of not eating lunch until after 3 pm. Not good - but it does mean that he keeps working on schoolwork all day until 3 pm when he stops for lunch and often stops for the day. Sometimes I can take him a plate of food while he is working and he will keep working and eat at the same time. I get more work out of him that way. But it needs to be food that is easy to eat (like sandwiches) so he can eat and work. If he stops to eat, getting back to work is almost impossible. That is perhaps a more extreme example of task-change problem.

Good luck with this, you are doing well. I hope a neuropsychologist evaluation can pinpoint exactly what is going on and why, so you can make your help more specific.

Oh, one last thing - difficult child 3 has a good mate, several years younger, who also has (like difficult child 3) a diagnosis of high-functioning autism. difficult child 3's friend had mild language delay also, but hyperlexia was also his salvation. Learning to read early helped the language skills in other areas. difficult child 3's friend has progressed brilliantly, despite his parents doing almost nothing to help their son except let him do what he wants (which actually can work with these kids - but you could have problems later on when you try to direct the child). But this boy is about to start high school, mainstream, with no accommodations. He's done brilliantly, and has managed to learn how to change tasks (he used to be a shocker that that). I think his teachers have managed 9although it is the same school where difficult child 3 had poorer understanding form teachers and I know friend had the same dud teachers). I believe what has happened here, is primarily the efforts of the child. And I see the same effort in your son too - he desperately wants to be good, he desperately wants to please you. But he has other conflicts in his head getting in the way, and he currently interprets this as "bad" when it isn't really.

Keep us posted on how you get on.

Marg

 

[happy]

I think you have made a wonderful start on helping your son. Also watch your other children for signs of transition difficulty, and try to ease them through it and not force it too hard.

Another trick that works for us - we used a Post-It note system. When difficult child 3 was playing a computer game (such as the Wii) and it was time for him to go have his bath, we learned to give him time to make the transition himself. But if we simply said to him, "difficult child 3, it's bath-time," he would either rage at the sudden imposed change, or not hear us. He might hear and respond automatically, but his brain was disengaged and it did not sink in, so alter on he would deny having been told. And he really did not remember having been told, even if we had heard him reply, "yeah, sure, I'll be there in a minute." It had been an automatic reply.
So we took to giving him advance warning. But we still had the problem of him insisting he had not heard the advance warning. So we stuck a Post-It note to the screen (in the corner where it doesn't get in the way). We would write on it the task needed (bath, or dinner) and the time he had been told. Or perhaps the time he had to go. Or both. Then when we reminded him and he said, "You never told me!" we could point to the note. Physical evidence. It helped him realise we were not making it up, and he did have a problem with transitioning that he hadn't fully appreciated.
Giving advance warning is still needed but he is now a lot better at watching the clock. Having a routine is also important. If you don't already have a routine, chances are your son has his own routine and it may not be one that you fully endorse. Your son's routine (held in his head) may be, "Get up. Get dressed. Eat breakfast. Play Wii all day."

Marg

Thanks Marg once again. Wow, you seem to know your stuff!
This is so much like my son. I tell him what to do and he claims he didn't hear me. Drives me nuts!! I will use Post It notes. I asked him last night if he was happy and he said he was. I asked what another poster suggested about why do we butt heads. He went back to that "good" and "bad" part of his brain again. He said he was sorry. Yesterday we (husband, son and I) had a shouting match about his laundry. He promised that he would put it away and then later said he never promised. So the Post It will help from now on I told him that he shouldn't lie to me. I feel horrible again because I'm not understanding what's going on here and I'm ruining my son. It's not fair to him.

I'm going to watch closly with my younger son -3 if this is the case too. He's very intelligent but really has problems transitioning. He goes fron all smiles to angry in 10 seconds if he is playing or doing something and I tell him to wash his hands or use the bathroom or pick up a toy or something. Maybe his age of 3 but at least you open my eyes to this Marg- thank you.

 

[happy]

My son doesn't seem to have any of the symptoms of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) though:
Symptoms of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) may include communication problems such as:

• Difficulty using and understanding language
• Difficulty relating to people, objects, and events; for example, lack of eye contact, pointing behavior, and lack of facial responses
• Unusual play with toys and other objects
• Difficulty with changes in routine or familiar surroundings
• Repetitive body movements or behavior patterns, such as hand flapping, hair twirling, foot tapping, or more complex movements
• Unable to cuddle or be comforted

the only thing I see is what you mentioned Marg about the Post It notes.

 

[Marguerite]

I only seem to have answers because we've been there ahead of you, in triplicate! Experience is all.

Happy, you said,

I told him that he shouldn't lie to me.

He may not be lying to you. Not in the strict sense of the term. Although the younger they are, the more they are likely to try the more simple lies of "I didn't do it." But be careful - he may be tellnig the truth as he understands it to be.

I used to believe that Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids can't lie. Then I observed my boys lying. Or trying to. I realise ALL kids lie, but Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids, due to their poorer social skills, are far less skilled at lying. They tend to tell less complex lies and also are more likely to be found out. Over time this builds up a conditioned response that teaches them that lying is not a good idea.

Looking ay your list of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) symptoms - first, few kids have all of the symptoms. Second, it's possible to NOT have Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) but still have some of the traits. That may still be your son.

Now to look at your list - Asperger's people don't have the language issues (eliminates the first one). And even in kids like difficult child 3, it's called language DELAY. difficult child 3 was non-verbal for the first few years but if assessed now, he scores in the superior category for language.

Difficulty relating to people, objects, and events; for example, lack of eye contact, pointing behavior, and lack of facial responses

This will vary a lot, depending on the social situation the child is in. At home with people he feels safe with (even if you do have shouting matches, for him it is home and he understands it better than anywhere else) you will find much better eye contact than away from home in a changing situation. Back when difficult child 3 was being diagnosed, when we were going to a multidisciplinary diagnostic team when he was 4, we were asked to bring in his baby photos. They scrutinised those for signs of eye contact avoidance, and couldn't find it. Yet in the room with him they noted (according to their report) a reduction in eye contact. From my view at that time, difficult child 3 was showing intense interest in the toys they had there, and was focussing his attention on those. Anyone trying to talk to him had to take a back seat. Also at that time, difficult child 3 was mostly non-verbal (his diagnosis is autism, not Asperger's). But difficult child 1 and easy child 2/difficult child 2 at that age were highly verbal. difficult child 1 did not make good eye contact with strangers. Interestingly, easy child 2/difficult child 2 tells us that she has always had to work really hard to make eye contact in situations where she knows she should, such as when she was at school being yelled at by a teacher. She currently works as a "checkout chick" and has to force herself to make eye contact with customers. However, she has realised (and done the online test) that she has some degree of face blindness. Check this possibility out with your child too - it's a subtle thing and normal (non-Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)) people can have it too, although form what I am seeing, I believe it is a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) trait wherever it is found, even in someone who doesn't officially have Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). We have a celebrity scientist in Australia called Dr Karl, who is part of a duo with Adam Spencer called the Sleek Geeks. Dr Karl has quite severe face blindness. Adam Spencer filmed him at a book signing, Adam sent the same bloke up to Dr Karl (who writes a lot of popular science books) and the autograph hunter would change his shirt or his cap each time. They got up to about 6 times before Dr Karl began to say, "Have I met you before?"
Face blindness is also called prosopagnosia. difficult child 1 does not have this despite having a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) diagnosis. However, easy child 2/difficult child 2 is quite bad, almost as bad as Dr Karl. This was a huge problem for us at school when difficult child 3 was being bullied - he could never be sure who it was who attacked him, and so the bullies learned they could get away with it easily by saying, "I wasn't there."
easy child 2/difficult child 2's doctor (who isn't too fast on the uptake sometimes) insists she is not Aspie because she makes good eye contact with him. But as easy child 2/difficult child 2 has said to me, "I know him. I've been seeing him since I was 10 years old. Plus these days I know how to make myself look at someone in the eye."
Pointing - have you ever tried to point something out to your dog? The dog looks at the end of your finger. A dog can be trained to recognise the abstraction of the signal, however. And so can a child, even a child with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). This particular bullet point is talking about social skills and social sense - young children tend to lack social skills to a certain extent anyway, so this in a high functioning Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) child can be still very subtle at 7.
On the lack of facial responses - that is an interesting one. difficult child 3 as a baby/toddler did not play the usual games a baby does. You know how you can say, "Where is baby's nose?" and teach the baby to touch his nose? difficult child 3 couldn't ever get that game. He just looked blank. But easy child easily taught him to mimic facial expressions! We would say, "Show me 'happy'," and smile, and difficult child 3 would put a smile on his face. We extended his expressions 'vocabulary' to include angry, sad, confused, surprised - you get the picture. Of course these expressions were fake because this was a game. Interestingly, when he started school (age 5) he was still using these fake expressions to demonstrate his real inner feelings. His teacher laughed at his put-on angry face, but it took her time to realise that when he put on that face, he really was angry!
What I'm saying here - this can be more complex than you realise. But it's OK - because the brighter the kid, the more likely they are to modify and adapt what they can do, to mask what they have difficulty with. So you get a kid who can slide past a more obvious diagnosis. However, as we have found with easy child 2/difficult child 2, later on there will be baffling problems until you look at the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) possibilities and realise - "bingo!"

Unusual play with toys and other objects

This is not always rigid. Some kids will ONLY line up their Matchbox cars. Others will only spin the wheels of the cars and never go "vroom, vroom!" But other kids, difficult child 3 and his best friend among them, will happily play with Lego appropriately. or be able to play a board game well. Over New Year difficult child 3 was playing Connect 4x4 with me and other people. And thrashing us. The thing about this bullet point - if you ever observe a tendency to focus on part of a toy and not the main purpose of the toy, and if the child tends to return to this activity, you need to consider this criterion met. But it's not mandatory. it can often appear in a 'normal' activity perhaps played to excess, such as stacking cups, Babushka dolls or similar. My kids focussed on toys which let them post shapes through specially shaped holes. difficult child 3 liked toys which were beads on wires which you could slide along. A friend gave him an abacus - in the movie "The Black Balloon" where difficult child 3 is playing Noah, he is holding an abacus.

Difficulty with changes in routine or familiar surroundings

Your son has this. This is the difficulty in coping with change in activity or task. He has this strongly. However, he is capable of learning to manage, as these kids (especially the bright ones) are capable of learning to adapt in ANY way.

Repetitive body movements or behavior patterns, such as hand flapping, hair twirling, foot tapping, or more complex movements

difficult child 3 never flapped his hands or did anything like that. No rocking, no foot tapping. Instead, he watched the trees. What we DID have, however, was certain noises. Often, especially as they learn to adapt, these noises will be the normal noises a person might make, but in these kids the noises will be made with greater frequency and with no need for the noise to be made. For example, throat clearing, sniffing, saying, "mm," or similar. You can get gestures that work similarly, such as the gesture to push glasses up the bridge of the nose, even if the glasses are not sliding down. These are still 'tics' and are actually a coping strategy. They soothe the agitation and anxiety that is going on inside, as the person is trying to adapt. it's subconscious and if you try to control it or punish it, you will risk increasing it because it is anxiety-driven.

Unable to cuddle or be comforted

Again, this is a very simplistic statement and also does not apply to all or even most Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids. difficult child 1 would cling like a koala bear; you couldn't prise him off. difficult child 3 was always a loving child, but you could't force him to give you a hug or cuddle if he was busy doing something else. But if you held your arms out in a gesture asking for a hug, he would almost always come and give you a hug. From toddlerhood. And he has a diagnosis of autism!
easy child 2/difficult child 2 is an interesting case - she was always wanting to be in physical contact, but not with the apparent insecurity of difficult child 1. Instead, I would be walking past and easy child 2/difficult child 2 would grab me for a hug. She still is a very 'huggy' person, her friends all love her for it and give her lots of hugs.
The angle here is - these people LOVE being touched and love hugs, BUT ON THEIR TERMS. Temple Grandin, one of the world's most famous autistic people, knows just how much a hug can help. But she also can't cope with other people being in control of the hug. She actually invented her own hugging machine, to help her. She can give herself the gentle pressure she feels she needs, and is in full control of it. It calms her down, it helps her cope. She is also more severely autistic than difficult child 3.
Interestingly, easy child (my allegedly 'normal' child) from infancy was not wanting physical contact much. I would breastfeed her, and as soon as she decided she was done, she would push away from me and lean towards the floor, wanting to be put down to play. Even before she was old enough to do more than roll over, she would 'ask' to be put down immediately after a feed. She did not cuddle. When difficult child 1 was born (and, oh joy! I had a baby who loved to be held!) easy child realised that maybe she had been missing something, and for a while she tried to cuddle more. She never really took to it.

It is difficult when Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) information is so specific - "Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) is always like this" - because every child can be so different. When difficult child 3 was going into 1st grade I arranged to talk to his teacher ahead of time. We only talked on the phone, but it was very helpful. The teacher said to me, "Don't worry, I do understand autism. I have twin boys, and one of them has Asperger's."
I said to her, "You will find difficult child 3 is very different. He likes people, does not avoid them at all."
"We will be fine, I do understand," she repeated.
But at the end of her first day with difficult child 3 she met me at the classroom door. "You're right, he IS different, isn't he?"
She was a good teacher but he had her at times at screaming point. I later met her son (we all went on a school excursion a few years later) and yes, her son was more typical (a lot like difficult child 1 in the shyness and insecurity). It has often been difficult for lay people to meet difficult child 3 and accept that he has autism. Until they see him melt down over a need to transition!

Another of difficult child 3's best friends is a 12 year old girl who is genius-level but with no Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) at all. Her mother is difficult child 3's speech therapist. When difficult child 3 first met the girl, he said to her mother, "Is your daughter autistic?"
The mother was almost outraged - only her training as therapist had her pause before she exploded. "Why would you think that?" she asked him.
"Because she's so very, very smart," he explained. To difficult child 3, being autistic is being smart, being capable academically (in some areas especially) and being gifted at problem-solving and almost instantly understanding how something works. He saw this in his friend, and made an interesting (if incorrect) assumption.
Meanwhile young friend who was about 6 at the time, thought difficult child 3 was wonderful. And normal. Until she witnessed his first tantrum. "I didn't know anyone knew words like that," she told her mother.

Living with this has been quite an education for us, but it has also been an adventure.

Temple Grandin says that if she were given the chance to wake up tomorrow and not have autism, she would refuse. Yes, it has its problems, but it has enriched her life in ways that would not be possible without the autism.

When you look at what Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) really is, boiling it down to basics - it is a disorder of communication, of social skills and some repetitive behaviours at some stage. The repetitive behaviours can be masked or hidden especially as the child gets older and learns it is not appropriate; or they find other ways to get their 'fix' of repetition or stims. For example, the hand-flapping so commonly associated with autism is actually providing a flickering light effect to the child's eyes. difficult child 3 learned in infancy (he was a week old!) to look at the light flickering through the trees. We were amazed at this baby, on his first day home form hospital, fixing his eyes on the trees. From that day if I wanted to soothe him for sleep, I would take him outside under the trees and he would look at the light through the trees for a little while and fall asleep. So he never flapped his hands - he just looked at trees! And we never realised until years later, what was really going on.
difficult child 1 got a volunteer job at a zoo and loved to watch the birds. He took note of the emus and noted the sound the male emus make. difficult child 1 tried to imitate it. He practiced the sound until he felt he had it. But it had already become a habit and it became his new stimulant - the "emu boom" which is a sort of quiet gulping noise in the throat, like a flap valve closing in a long pipe (which is probably what the noise really is!). It took years for difficult child 1 to change to a more acceptable stimulant.

We've explained to our kids - this is how your brain was made, this is how it functions best. So find the way your brain works best and use your gifts wisely and to the full.

It's a disorder of social interaction - they don't learn to follow social rules the same way other people do. But they can learn. They just need to find a different way to learn, generally by mimicry, having it modelled for them.
Contrary to popular opinion, autistic people are NOT socially withdrawn by definition; they are socially inappropriate or mismatched. easy child 2/difficult child 2 grabbing me for a hug, even if my hands were full with a hot tray of biscuits from the oven - inappropriate timing. But it was HER choice to hug, she was in control of it. And she so desperately craves physical contact.
They don't always do obvious repetitive movements. difficult child 3 gets his jollies by blowing bubbles (when younger); throwing paper planes; firing darts from his Nerf armoury; building elaborate machines which lift balls high up to then run through a complex roller coaster system. He can watch those for hours. He also loves to make things work, especially if they're made up of lots of small things. Electronics. Chemistry. Anything that goes bang, that fizzes, that bubbles - he loves it. he wants to understand it so he studies it.

Studying animal behaviour, or human behaviour, is often something a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) person will choose to do, as a means of learning to understand people. Temple Grandin became an animal behaviour expert. She wrote a book called "An Anthropologist on Mars" because she said tat is what she feels like sometimes - like in observing people, she is studying s species alien to her own.

These are the kids that can watch an ants nest for hours, then come and explain the complex intricacies of ant behaviour to you, until you never want to hear about ants again.

difficult child 1 used to feed the white cockatoos outside (much to the annoyance of neighbours - these birds will eat timber houses if they get bored). They all look identical, but difficult child 1 sat and watched their behaviour, so he could understand them. And as he did, he noticed something - the bolder birds that approached first, had slightly darker eyes. He rang the museum and discussed this with their birds curator - yes, difficult child 1 had just independently discovered the difference between male and female cockatoos in appearance and behaviour.

Just after Christmas difficult child 1 & I dropped in on friends who have a new labrador puppy. We watched difficult child 1 play with the puppy - he became a dog too, and played like a dog would. He's clerly been studying dog behaviour and mentally teaching himself to mimic it. Not quite on all fours, but bending low and mock-growling at the pup, encouraging it to mock-attack and then rolling over pretending the pup had knocked him down. I haven't seen difficult child 1 do that before, but he doesn't live with us any more do he takes me by surprise sometimes. I wish I had filmed it. But he is also 27 and increasingly mature - he finally straightened up and walked over to us (when the pup was lying panting on the ground!) and engaged us in conversation.

It is moments like that which provide a lot of delight in my days.

Marg

 

[HaoZi]

Difficulty using and understanding language

My difficult child is quite intelligent and seems to have a firm grasp on language. She's been speaking full sentences since she was in diapers. However, if you listen closely to her, she takes everything that is said in a very literal way. She doesn't quite grasp metaphors, similes, or cliches. If you say "When pigs fly" she will expect this as an evolutionary event that is expected to happen.

 

[Marguerite]

That's the social side of the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). You'v e reminded me - when difficult child 3 was learning to talk, we had a lot of trouble with him understanding me vs you. For example, you say to the child, "Do you want a drink?" and he would interpret the "you" as meaning me. I read a short piece in the paper over the weekend where a mother was replying in the letters section to criticism of mothers who refer to themselves or their children in the first person as in, "Mummy doesn't like it when Johnny does that," where the writer was pointing out this very problem - little children (especially those with social or language issues) have a lot of difficulty when they first have to wrap their brains around "I/you/me". Using the third person makes your meaning clear, even if it doesn't seem to be progressing the child through learning this.

A normal child will progress through this purely by listening and observing normal conversations happening around them. What we had initially with difficult child 3, however, was a seeming total lack of recognition of words as communication. He could mimic words and even recite total slabs of text from his favourite movies, but he would recite everything, including incidental sound effects, with equal value. The words also sounded sort of 'blurred', too, because he did not have meaning.

Young children, especially young Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) children, don't understand ambiguity. You need to be very plain and unambiguous in your communication. So sarcasm should be avoided. One of difficult child 3's first teachers used sarcasm a lot, and was not popular with the kids. Or with me - but that's another story! A kid drops a plate of glasses and they shatter - the adult says (sarcastically), "Oh, very well done!" But the context (broken glasses) and the body language/tone of voice implies this was NOT well done. How is the child to respond? Especially a child who is still struggling with the correct way to interact, anyway? And when the child tries to imitate this, it can be disastrous indeed because the social skills lag and actually, it takes good social skills to be able to understand, and then deliver, sarcasm.

Ambiguity was a real problem for us. So when giving directions to difficult child 3, we avoided using the word "right" unless we meant "opposite of left". If he got something right we instead said, "correct." We had to be THAT specific!

But it has paid off. He also now is getting quite skilled at recognising sarcasm and sometimes even using it. He also, because he remembers large slabs of text, grabs a chuck of text from his memory and uses it in context. This way he often has managed to publicly crack jokes or respond fast with a devastating riposte. It's hilarious, especially given that these kids are much better at keeping a poker face than most.

Learning to avoid ambiguity - only when you begin to be vigilant, do you realise how ubiquitous it is. "Hop down from there," does not mean the child hopping on one leg down the ladder. A child who does this, especially with an adult who doesn't realise, can be accused of "being smart". But to the child, this is even more confusing and upsetting, because they were trying to be obedient.

The world is a confusing place to any child. But for some children, it is more confusing and more chaotic than for others. And often it is those very children who have the strongest need for order, logic and discipline in their world. and if the world won't give it to then, they will darn well make sure they get it some other way!

Marg

 

[gbisdunn]

Hi to a newbie from a newbie! I posted my first thread a few days after you, New year new start if you want to read. My difficult child is also a boy and he will be turning 8 in a few weeks. I see a lot of similarities in them. My son has had medical issues but also emotional and behavioral issues. The problem of course like yours is we are the only ones who get the benefit of seeing that side. For a long time I thought I was just a bad parent because he was angel at school, at other's houses, and at relatives. Then I read the Explosive Child book and it helped alot. My husband and I felt like the book was written for us. I highly recommend reading it. I am also reading What Your Explosive Child is Trying to tell you and it too has shed some new light. He sees a behavioral therapist to help him learn how to cope with his emotions but I feel like we are at a stand still and this past new years eve was a big step back. So we joined the forum and are now looking a NeuroPsychologist exam and maybe Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). Its a lot to take in but we all only want the best for our children. I totally understand about butting heads and then the terrible guilt that follows and the bad cycle that gets created. Just keep educating yourself and don't stop until that pit in your stomach that there is something wrong goes away. I still feel like there is something more we can be doing so I am still learning about different things.

The meltdown about laundry hit home. We ask him to pick up a candy wrapper, or hand his coat, or anything considered simple and he throws himself on the floor and whines and yells why do I have to or screams I hate you or throws something. Like you charts and rewards and punishment have been tried with short or no success. Add in a easy child who is only 18 months younger who you are trying to teach things too but only feels like her brother gets away with everything so then you go easier on her and another cycle starts. I am sure all of this sounds familiar and I will keep you updated on what we learn if you do the same. I would start out with reading the Explosive child and trying things that work for your family.

 

[happy]

Thanks gbisdunn and welcome
I'm totally looking at my son in a whole new light after reading all the replies to my post here. He was reading his sister and brother The Berenstain Bears No Girls Allowed book last night. He reads on the slow side but I think he does a great job sounding out the few words he didn't know. I'm proud of him. I have that same feeling in my stomach like there is something wrong but I can't put my finger on it. For the last month it's really been bothering me and it's hard to sleep and cope right now because my mind is always thinking about him. In the last couple weeks, his facial expression seems to me has changed too. He's not the happy little boy I'm used too, he seems to have a more serious unhappy look to him. I keep asking him what's wrong. I keep getting "nothing" as a response. I've been just staring at him for the last few days trying to figure things out.
I have been making announcements of when bedtime is or shower time is or whatever. I think the transition has been better just in 2 days. No tantrums that's for sure. husband did bring him to tears at the dinner table about food. My son has been throwing out his lunch at school because he want ISM time (Independant School Mgmt) they get to play with puzzles, Lego's, magnets and the computers, that sort of stuff. So lunch is over in 2 mins for him and he gets 18 mins of ISM time. Well he was telling us that he wanted more food packed in his lunch and husband's point was why would we put more food in his lunch, just so he could throw it out. He didn't understand and he started crying. He didn't want to eat his pork chops at dinner so husband said he would put more on his plate just like he was asking for more food for his lunch. I told husband to stop that he didn't understand to leave him alone and he did.
We did get some alone time too together. My son is jealous of his younger brother and sister. We got about 3 hours together to cuddle on the couch, play Wii soccer, and toss around the football. I wish we could have more one on one time together but it's hard with 3 young kids.
I will see how tonight goes, he has a writing assignment due, and a math test packet due tomorrow and he needs to study his spelling words for his test on Friday. He usually gets 100% on everything but the work still needs to be done. Hopefully will little to no arguements. I forewarned him this morning on what needed to be done tonight.

Thanks again ladies.

 

[happy]

I read the book 1-2-3 Magic for my son. It worked for awhile. I also just started using 'good' stones, 'bad' stones. The kids put a glass stone in a cup when they help out, do a chore, do something good etc. They have to take it out for being bad, fighting with siblings, that sort of thing. When the cup is full, they will get a certain amt of money to shop with to get a toy, game, or put in their bank acct. It seems to be affective so far.

 

[Marguerite]

Forewarning is good. The stones idea - good, but the problem can come if the stones come out too quickly and don't go in fast enough. We had to switch to a reward system where rewards, once earned, stayed earned. Your son's change in expression does sound like an increase in depression/decrease in self-exteem. Not good.
Your husband's point over the pork chops - I get what he was trying to say, but I don't think your son was able to connect those dots. Maybe you could pack a more concentrated lunch for him, but less of it, so he can eat it faster. A muesli bar or similar.
My kids used to eat all their lunch at the earlier recess (aka "little lunch") or they'd bring it home and eat lunch after they got home from school. NEVER throw out food, was our rule. If you don't want to eat it, bring it home so at the very least, it can be fed to the chickens. No waste.

A suggestion with your son's reading - it's good, use it. difficult child 3 was hyperlexic, so we used his reading a lot, it really boosted his progress. We would read a book together (in our me time) and as you have younger ones, you and difficult child can read to the younger ones as a team. difficult child 3 & I would take turns reading - sometimes he would read the dialogue and I would read the other bits; sometimes we would swap. When I read the dialogue I put on different voices and acted them out. That meant he did the same when he read dialogue, and it is a habit he got into so reading at school, he read with expression (something autistic kids supposedly can't do - difficult child 3 keeps breaking the 'rules'!). Reading this way has been a lot of fun for us both, and also for anyone listening. Reading, especially with expression, to someone younger teaches social skills. And this won't go to waste.

Marg

 

[happy]

Yesterday was a good day Gosh thank you so much for everyones advice!! The Post Its are helping and so are the couple advance time announcements for him. No struggles yesterday. Bedtime in 30 mins, bedtime in 15 mins, in 5 mins really worked. Same with dinner. He was hungry about an hour before dinner and he asked for a cookie (small Christmas cookies) and I let him have one and he wanted another and I said at dinner. I read on here about an example of that. It worked, itstead of me saying 'NO' and him melting down. Not all the problems are solved but just the couple days of no arguements is great. My stress level is loving it, I'm very strong willed, and stubborn and get mad quickly. No patience on my part . He was watching a cartoon and I reminded him of all his homework he had and he said please can I do it after the cartoon is over. Grrr, I let it go and wrote a Post It - Homework after cartoon -25 mins, he read it and afterwards we had a smooth transition into homework.

Thanks again !

 

[Marguerite]

Success breeds more success, in the same way (as you experienced already) that catastrophe breeds more catastrophe.

Keep up the good work! Don't forget to praise him (and yourself, quietly) for working well together.

Marg

 

[happy]

Thanks Marg, tonight went well. His face in the last 2 days is like my baby's face again. I played football with him and he enjoyed it so much tonight. He's getting some attention that he needs as well as my other 2. I work from home and have 2 jobs and spend time on the computer so I'm still working but not visiting my social sites that much in the last week. i told him that he had to study his spelling words and he said can we toss around the football and you quiz me. I gave into the idea -not my normal. He was so happy because he thought of the idea and I let him boast about it, I really praised him like it was a great idea and it worked out well. I think another transition worked. No problems for bedtime tonight again.

 

[TeDo]

I am so happy for you and difficult child. Keep thinking outside the box and things will keep getting better. I am trying to convince my difficult child's school to think like I do regarding difficult child's behavior. Why does it matter HOW he does it as long as he DOES it!. Keep up the good work.

 

[happy]

Thanks TeDo. I'm so glad that I came across this site. I was in tears a week ago, and I can't sleep lately because I am so worried about my son and his future. Just reading about ODD and Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) and other informative info on here has been a huge help. I'm going to get the book Explosive Child and read up on that and I'm not sure about a neuropsychologist test yet. Sounds costly. I know it's for my child but we had lots of expensive health bills last year that I'm still paying for and don't have the funds for it. Know what I mean?? I'll look into it and see what can be done.

 

[happy]

ok, just looked up neuropsychologist

• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Children who are not achieving appropriate developmental milestones[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Infants exposed to drugs, alcohol or illness in-utero[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Patients with head injuries[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Patients with Parkinson's Disease, or other neurological diseases[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Patients exposed to chemicals or toxins[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Substance abusing patients[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Stroke victims[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Patients with dementia[/FONT]

I son doesn't fit any of these, I can't see his pediatrician oking this?? Advice Please
They (pediatrician) only suggested for him to see a therapist last summer and at the time my son was 6 y/o, that he had the thought process/reasoning of a 9 or 10 y/o. She didn't see the point of us to continue after 2 visits.

 

[Marguerite]

I'm not sure where you got that list form, but there are many more reasons for a neuropsychologist. But I do understand the problem with paying for it when you have a lot of bills. If it would be easier (at least in the meantime) then get your son assessed by an Occupational Therapist (OT) (for sensory issues) and possibly a psychologist, to look at the transition problems. Any reports you have had in the past, and any reports you get in the future, from any speciality, share the info with other people your son might see. Together all these reports can add up to a more complete picture, and it can also save you money later on.

Are there any subsidised options for you? I'm not familiar with your health system, but here if we can't afford the high cost of private experts, we can get assessments done via hospital clinics. The wait is a lot longer, but if you're waiting anyway because you can't afford the higher costs of private, then a cheaper option with a long waiting list might ne the way for you to go.

We had a neuropsychologist assessment done on our easy child, too, because she was so gifted. Developmental milestones being reached early - the neuropsychologist assessment was useful in getting her into some programs for the academically gifted.

Marg

 

[happy]

Thanks Marg. I emailed his teacher to ask for a progress report on him since the end of Nov. She called me. Basically, she said he is brillant again but his brain doesn't slow down. The kids sit down in class and get into little groups (stations) to do work. She said that he will race thru the paperwork to move on to the mext station and it's not correct because he isn't taking the time to read the directions and complete it properly. Yesterday they were timed on their adding and subtracting and he can't get passed adding 5's (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) in 3 seconds, it takes him a bit longer. We know he knows the stuff really well, can't do it timed. She told him to take his time and breathe and he got flustered. I did bring up ODD and she said no way did she think he has that. We are going to sit down with the school social worker and psychologist. I did ask about a gifted program if she thought of that and she said they don't start testing in the school system until 4th grade, he's in 2nd.

 

[happy]

Marg our problem is we have a very high deductible. We can go anywhere it's just I have to pay X amt of $ before insurance kicks in 80% . ins coverage didn't start kicking in until mid-August and we took a beating in our savings acct. It sucked when I had to pay over $800 and ins paid like $24. Grrr I will do anything for my children tho so it's just a bit of a vent here.

 

[TeDo]

I son doesn't fit any of these, I can't see his pediatrician oking this?? Advice Please

They evaluate more than just those kinds of patients. Check out this site. It will give you a better picture of the kinds of things a neuropsychologist evaluates. Age-appropriate behavior is also a "developmental milestone" in that kids learn coping strategies and social expectations within certain timelines. If they aren't "learning" these skills, there is a delay. You might have to argue with the pediatrician to get one. If they bulk at it too much, I would consider changing peds. Just a thought.

emedicine.medscape.com/article/317596-overview