"I want M. to die. And I want mommy to die too." My Grandson

[BusynMember]

I haven't spoken much about my grandson, but he has been through a lot in five years and he is precocious and very bright. My son, Mr. 35, has given me grief at times, but he is an excellent father almost all the time. His son is his life. The two of them are very close and have fun together and since mom's house is kind of like an Army, he allows J. to relax at his house. His mother is kind of a kook. My son isn't always the greatest to me, but she is a kook to everybody. She has screamed and yelled at the daycare workers in front of J. and all the other kids and the parents who were there to the point that J. covered his face in embarassment. She also was the one who ran off with a man and threw that man into J's life even before the divorce was final and insists that J. "love" her honey. They are supposedly engaged. She goes ballistic on him if he won't say "I love you" to M.

I was on the phone with my son yesterday when J. interrupted and said to his father, "I don't ever want to go see mommy and M. again. Please don't make me go." My son was surprised and put the phone down so I had a bit of an ear. He told him that he should want to see his mommy because she loved him too and he started crying and said, "No, I don't want to go. When can I see a judge?" (Told you he's a smart little guy). My son got off the phone then called me back after J. was asleep and told me that J. had said, "I wish M. would die. And I wish mommy would die too."

When asked about being hit or abused, J. denies it. Nobody knows what is going on. The daycare worker told my son that J. never talks about his mother or M. He talks about my son nonstop. Even when the kids were making a project for Moms, he said, "Mine is for my daddy." He is not excited when his mother comes to get him.

I was at their house before the divorce and I didn't think she was particularly bad with J.

My son is also very bright and he is keeping texts and records for later on. He has no money for a lawyer right now.

I know there is nothing I can do other than make suggestions to my son, who is very reception (maybe too receptive) to my ideas. I am concerned about my grandson. Any feedback on what may be going on? Since the ex ran off with a man, but she did bring J. to live with them too, she has had a lot of trouble with him. My son has not had trouble with J's behavior. Ex is unwilling to spill what sorts of things J. is saying or doing at M's house when she has J. She usually yells at son and says he is brainwashing him, but I know my son well. He is no saint. He is not brainwashing his son. He doesn't even like to talk about his ex. Besides, this is a kid with a mind of his own and he's scary smart (just like his daddy was and still is).

Can a five year kid already be angry at Mom for running off with a man? J. told his mom on the phone last night, "I want you to come back here and live with my daddy again."

I know he needs therapy. That's a given. But any thoughts on what this little guy may be thinking of and why he is so angry at his mom and M? I'm almost positive no sexual abuse is going on (this is one thing ya never know for sure. I learned that). Son doesn't even think he is being spanked because she never believed in spanking. I'm wondering if M. is spanking him or if they are just jumping on him for every little thing. Ex had this big fantasy and she and her son would live happily ever after with her new sweetie pie. It's obviously not working out and ex has been really crabby lately. Her newest ploy to make M. a legitimate person in J's life is to write him down as somebody who can pick him up at daycare. My son, who has joint custody, told the babysitter that he doesn't want M. to pick up his son...only he and his ex should be allowed as they are the only guardians. He told the worker, "I am his father and if his mom can't pick him up, call me and I'll get him." It's petty, but ex was very upset. Maybe she got angry at J. because of my son doing that? I'm wondering if she takes her anger at my son out on J.

Thoughts? Remember, this kid is only just going to be five tomorrow. He's a little guy.

 

[AnnieO]

MWM... Something is going on. Jett was like this about bio... absolutely hated going back to her house for years, till he got an XBox there.

I can't say he is being abused... But he may be ignored, and if ex is crabby all the time, she's doing a lot of yelling at him, too.

I wish I had answers.

 

[BusynMember]

Thanks, Step. He definitely isn't being ignored.

How do you find out what's going on? I want to ask him, but I'm really not allowed to do that and it's not my business. My son is always wondering how to word things so that he isn't in violation of the stupid divorce decree that ex never follows (so he doesn't follow it anymore either). Plus J. is the kind of kid who gets very quiet and doesn't answer. He DOES say ex yells at him ALL THE TIME. That's as far as he'll go.

 

[AnnieO]

You can't ask him, without either giving him ideas or making him clam up. Mr 35 desperately needs to get J into counseling.

Ford is only now telling us a lot of what Justice and bio did/said/told him. It's ugly. And it went on for YEARS.

 

[TerryJ2]

Oh, this just makes my heart sad.
Yes, at 5, he is definitely capable of knowing that something is going on and expressing it, and even not expressing it if he has been threatened, or if he knows it's not socially acceptable. I think your son and his son should get a therapist asap. And art therapy works really well at that age.
{hugs}

 

[Bunny]

It's heartbreaking to hear a small child saying that he wishes his mommy would die. Step is right when she says that something is going on there. Is Mr. 35 willing to take J for counseling? If he does take him, do he have to let ex know that he's taking him to talk to someone? I hope that your son is able to find out what is going on ex's house.

 

[HaoZi]

Oh yeah something is going on. Does ex leave J alone M? Even just to go to the store? If so, who knows what happens. And she has no right to allow M to pick up J, period. If custody agreement says she can't pick up call Mr 35, then that's what they do. It doesn't say call M if ex isn't available.

Again, I think he needs to try to get child services for resources and referrals to help him with J and getting help for J. We all know that showing that willingness can go a long way if there's a nasty custody battle.

 

[Malika]

Okay, here's my two or 20 cents' worth. I think children, even small children (particularly bright small children), instinctively know what side their emotional bread is buttered - they know where stability and security are to be found, and they know that that is what they need (unconsciously of course). It sounds to me like J simply is making his wise choice. He is trying to organise matters so that he is left with the one stable and sane (it is truly mad to demand that a child "love" a stranger who has usurped his father's place) parent. I wouldn't think anything dreadful is happening with his mother and her partner other than that they are dragging him along in their unstable wake and he doesn't want it.

I say this partly because I have seen other kids doing it. They really choose the more level, balanced, stable of the parents and "reject" the other one. From their perspective, it is quite wise.

 

[BusynMember]

She doesn't leave him alone. He would tell my son that. From what he can gather, she just yells at him all the time and M. may be doing that too. But obviously there is more than that for such harsh words.

Therapy has been a contentious issue between the two of them. Ex has the insurance. Son claims he has no money for private psychiatrist, but makes too much to qualify for sliding scale services. Ex wanted to send Grandson to her own therapist who has only heard her side of the story. My son is against that. Of course, she may have taken him anyway. My son wants him to go to a man who has never seen either of them before. Meanwhile, he isn't going. Unless ex takes him to her therapist and doesn't tell my son. I'm going to talk to him again.

 

[BusynMember]

Thanks, Janet, for sharing. It's similar except that fortunately my son is there too and sees his son half the time. My grandson really clings to my son. It does sound similar. He cries when he gets dropped off at daycare and knows that his mom is going to pick him up instead of my son. It's so hard for these poor kids, isn't it?

 

[Liahona]

One of difficult child 1's therapists told us he does the same thing, talks up a storm about us but won't say anything about x. The therapist said he sees that in kids who have been told not to talk.

It does sound like your grandson is at least being emotionally abused. I am sorry but I don't know how to stop it. What we've done with difficult child 1 is to try to provide as stable an enviroment as possible. If I were adivising your son I'd tell him to get custody and then maybe move out of state. He needs to talk to a very good lawyer. I know you've said he isn't stable himself, so if he can do things to show the court he is working on getting himself stable it should help him. Things that he doesn't want to do like a therapist or psychiatrist, find a therapist for your grandson and take him to the therapist during his visitation time. If your grandson has insurance through the ex your son might have to contact her work or her SO's work to get the information about which therapist is on the insurance. It will be awkward, but it needs to be done.

*Good luck.

 

[susiestar]

It sounds like it is time for Mr. 35 to dip into his savings or drastically pare his expenditures down to the bone and get a lawyer and therapist on board for this little one. Going with-o a lawyer is insane. If you can, offer to help him make a budget if that would help. He needs to see how serious this is. It is HIGHLY disturbing that a 5yo would say these things. Most five year olds would not EVER say they want Mommy to die. It is a sign of MAJOR problems.

If he won't do a budget, maybe suggest taking the five year old to a DV center or report suspected abuse based on his actions. They will do a forensic interview with yuor grandson and will try to figure out what is going on without putting words in his mouth or harming him.

This statement and his behaviors are so unusual that in my opinion he NEEDS a professional and if your son ignores this and/or does not get the help his son needs, he will be neglecting the boy and possibly putting him in a very dangerous set of circumstances. For an attorney, he could cancel his tv, cut his phone plan, get an emergency loan against his retirement account, any of a number of things. He could likely even get a bank loan if he asked. His son is showing signs of severe problems and if he does not do what is needed to get as close to full custody as possible, then anything his son goes through past that point is partly his fault for not fighting more. Yes, it is a harsh stance, but how much harsher is it to send your child to a mother he wants to die rather than fight tooth and nail with every single penny you can get your hands on?? What is more important? You can make more money, but you cnnot always repair the damage that abuse causes.

Has he even spoken to an atty or child psychologist about these issues? Or looked at what his employee benefits are? Many companies offer prepaid legal help and/or an employee assistance program. The EAP gives you around 3 free meetings with a therapist or other specialist to help you resolve any and all problems. husband and I have had help with more than a few personal and/or marital problems, legal help, budgeting help, etc... from different employers over the years. He may say he doesn't have this or that, but had he really looked at the employee handbook or asked HR? I found that many of the officers at several companies were completely unaware of more than a few of their benefits. Sometimes they were with the company so long it didn't occur to them that these things could be available and others just never bothered to read any memos.

If your son truly cannot afford an attorney or help from his son, the boy's behavior shows disturbing red flags and a DV center should be able to help. If money i s that tight, there are people that can help if he will only ask.

Sending cyber hugs and the protection of my strongest Warrior Mom RhinoSkin to help keep that sweet little boy safe and healthy in every way.

 

[Liahona]

He could contact the guardian ad litem office for the court. He could explain he suspects his son is being abused (at least emotionally) and ask them what the first steps could be. They might be able to steer him towards a low cost therapist that has the courts trust. Here there are also a few agencies connected with cps that do therapy. He could call cps explain the situation and ask if they could recommend a therapist. The agencies here either are free or a sliding scale depending on income.

Does your son have insurance? Could he put grandson on his ins. too? If he can't or can't afford to he could call dws and at least ask about getting Medicaid for grandson. What they did for gfgf1 is put x's ins info on the card and what ever the first ins didn't cover Medicaid paid for.

Can ya tell we've been around the block a few times with this kind of issue? Ugh it is not good for the kids.

 

[BusynMember]

I don't think my son feels his child is being physically abused. There is no protection for verbal abuse or for yelling at a child. And you can't force ex to get rid of her useless boyfriend.

I am learning that divorce and custody is difficult. Attornys are extremely expensive and a lot of people don't have them for that reason. Getting free help is hard...you have to make a very low salary. They do not take your expenses into account. Before the divorce, my son got himself into deep water financially and nobody cares that his wife ran off with another man and that now his expenses are his and his alone. Son made some horrible spending choices.

A custody battle is not cut and dried an d can and often does cost $30-$80, 000, which is why they don't happen very often unless you have money in your family to help you. Even if he did, he would not be granted soul custody. There is no proof that his son is ever beaten. There is nothing illegal about ex having a new honey moving in, in fact they claim to be engaged. A child of five saying "Mommy is mean, she yells at me" won't change custody. Neither will, "I hate M." Sad fact is most people can not even afford the initial retainer fee for a divorce attorney let alone a long custody battle which usually includes paying expert witnesses, such as therapists. Son dated a divorce attorney for a while and learned a lot about his options from her. She was not willing, however, to go to court for him and pretty much said he had no case.

The therapist I totally agree about. He can't however just take his son to a therapist without ex's approval and she is insisting it is her therapist or no therapist. It's true that he doesn't qualify for the county services because I called them for him while he was at work and they said you can only make XXX amount of dollars and he makes way over that, although, because of his own pre-divorce spending, he is broke. Plus his post-divorce child support. It is unsure if ex would agree to that therapy either. She doesn't really "believe" in therapy, except, of course, for herself. And she will only take her son to a therapist who knows her side of the story already and will side with her, rather than focus on her son. He has already gone to that therapist and it obviously isn't helping him.

If it were my call, I'd take him to a seperate therapist and the hello with ex, but it's not my call. I have nothing to say about this, and it was just a sad vent.

 

[BusynMember]

Janet, I forgot about that and will bring that to his attention. Again, there is a problem though. Ex is a proud and practicing atheist who doesn't want her son anywhere near church and he has never been inside of one. My son is iffy on the religion thing, but went along with her (which I thought was a bad idea) when they were married. Now he is thinking of bringing J. to church, which I'm strongly advising when he asks (he is very prone to listening to me). Seems J. is asking about church because all the kids go except him, and I personally feel it is very positive to expose your young child to religion. So that is the best idea I've heard yet and I will throw t hat one at him. Thanks, Janet. You rock.