Is Anger part of ODD?

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by Kjs, Nov 23, 2010.

  1. Kjs

    Kjs Guest

    difficult child was always defiant for as long as I can remember. 13 years ago we were told ODD. With the current situation I am beginning to wonder if the medication...all of it..is just making it worse. Could his anger just be a part of ODD?

    I do think he is depressed / sad. I do believe his depersonalization. Due to how vividly he can describe it. I do believe he needs an antidepressant. But he isn't on one!

    Just thinking out loud while I wait for return call from psychiatrist. Wondering if all the medications could just mess him up more than without. with exception of anxiety medication. That HAS helped tremendously. Isn't having panic attacks all day every day. Not having all the aches and pains and thinking he is dying. Not getting shaky and sweaty and so scared. That medication is helping.

    sigh. double sigh. He has me beside myself. Lost and so alone. As you all know, what others witness isn't what it is really like. To try to explain to others who don't walk in these shoes...useless. They just do not get it.

    But, I am ready to throw it all in and quit. I am defeated.
     
  2. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    I would be very careful with antidepressants at his age, in younger people they can make things worse instead of better more than they do in the 24+ crowd. If he does get put on one you'll need to keep a very close eye and ear on him for "adverse reactions".
     
  3. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Ditto on the antidepressants.
    Also any disorder can make a child angry because they are far more prone to becoming frustrated. Autism/Aspergers can make a child angry. A mood problem can make a child angry. A learning disability can make a child angry. An easily frustrated child is going to get angry. A lot of us on the board don't really believe ODD is a diagnosis in of itself. in my opinion it's just behavior that is part of a bigger disorder and often used when the doctor has no idea what is wrong. That's why I like NeuroPsychs...they test.

    On depersonalization...a few antidepressants made it even worse for me. So did mood stabilizers. In fact depersonalization makes you FEEL a bit drugged. The only thing that helped it for me was benzos and I'm not sure it would help your child. It's a VERY scary feeling (depersonalization) and that is probably why he acts out so badly. When you yell and scream, you feel a little more "real" at least for the moment...hard to explain. You are on very high stress when you have dp...it's like the stress is there every moment of the day and the fog just wont' lift...
    Good luck!
     
  4. Kjs

    Kjs Guest

    well, since the time difficult child could talke (15 months in sentences) I could say the sky is blue and he would say black. Like I said, I say take your medications he says no. I say don't take them he wants them. Doesn't matter WHAT I ask/want ...even if he wants the same he will never admit it. He will always say opposite of what I want. 15 years of this. I can't take it. he wins.

    I know the effects. And I am afraid. He does say he will harm himself. More often lately. Thinking the medications are going to have to stop. Maybe a medication wash of sort. I don't know what to do. The harder I try, the farther apart we end up. I miss my kid. He was happy before the depersonalization set in. Angry, but happy. He could be angry at one minute and happy about so much more. Still....he pushed my buttons.

    Thanks for the info.
     
  5. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I'm no expert, but I've done a lot of reading on depersonalization which usually also includes derealization (the feeling that the surroundings are not real...a tree may seem foreign to the person...and scary). There is no particular medication that helps depersonalization/deprealization, but a new kind of therapy is supposed to be helpful. It is called dialectal behavioral therapy and you may want to give that a try. Sometimes medications are not the answer to certain disorders.

    I don't know if you're aware that there is a support group for dp, but it may be helpful to you. I'll link you up:

    http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/
     
  6. Kjs

    Kjs Guest

    Thank you. I have been to that board. Actually some lady was so helpful and nice. She asked if she could call. I gave her my number. She called and after a few minutes went on about a book she wrote and wanting me to pray with her for the all powerful......I did not go back.

    psychiatrist's secretary called back. She said doctor said this is not caused from the medication and wants us to go from 20mgs to 40mgs starting tonight and will work us in tomorrow.
     
  7. Bunny

    Bunny Guest

    You're concerned that the medications are causing his change in behavior and he wants to increse them? I don't understand that.

    I hope that you find an answer soon.

    Pam
     
  8. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    I think anger is what drives ODD, in the same way an engine drives a car. Frustration and anxiety lie behind the anger in most cases, and there are a number of disorders that can cause the frustration and anxiety.

    Treat the symptoms and you can ease off the problems, but it is complex. Children are humans, humans are complex. Their environment is also a huge factor - how we respond to the underlying disability in the child is perhaps the most important part of their environment, and this has a direct impact on the degree of ODD you will observe.

    On the topic of whether ODD is real - yes, it is, in my opinion. But does it deserve its own stand-alone label? I'm not so sure. I don't believe ODD is something a kid "catches" like a cold, or is born with, like spina bifida. I do think ODD is something that can develop as a result of a lot of complex inter-connection between a number of underlying disorders and the way we handle them in our children. Some children learn far more by imitation than others. Also, some children are far more anxious and frustrated than others. They tend to try to wrest control form those in authority, but if in such a case, the authoritarian responds by trying to clamp down tighter and retain control, you set up a fast-track training program actually teaching the child to develop ODD. In a way, it is the parent (or teacher) modelling controlling, oppositional behaviour (from the child's point of view) that is the final piece of the puzzle. To resolve the ODD, you need to step back and change direction from the need to dominate the child by control. It is a matter of unlearning the need for control, and instead teaching self-control. But the adult has to be the hero first, and set the example of not controlling and not resisting. By that stage, it is a lot harder to do it this way. But it can be done.

    Medication can help, especially when these kids hit their teens. If he's talking about self-harm, then you have to balance the fear of possible harm from medications (bearing in mind, you will be watching) vs the almost certain promise he WILL harm himself if you don't do something.

    We tried medications. Antidepressants were first tried with difficult child 3 when he was 5 years old. He could not tolerate them at the time, although he did show immediate improvement. difficult child 1 went on Zoloft at 15 when he was suicidally depressed and cutting himself. We should have put easy child 2/difficult child 2 on Zoloft at the same time; she was a closet cutter. I know Zoloft especially is a medication of concern, since there have been links to suicide attempts. From my reading (and experience, sadly) those who have suicided have done so within a couple of months of starting Zoloft. They reported mood problems and suicidal ideation from the time they began taking the medication, and this should have been addressed. There were two cases within a year, in our village. Both were people I knew, I was so angry when I heard, that the doctors in each case ignored the warnings and concerns expressed by both patients and families.

    But I have never heard of someone who has been on Zoloft for a longer time with no earlier problems, later on developing a severe depression from the medications. It is very much something that happens right away, and even then only in a small number of cases. If the person is aware of this risk, they themselves are likely to be the first to report it to someone. In the cases I knew, the patients did not know of this side effect. One of the deaths is still officially listed as an accident, but close family and friends quietly are fairly sure it was suicide, spur of the moment. She had come through so much already, the hard times were behind her - no reason to suicide, except for how she had been feeling, with no explanation (other than having just started on a new medication).

    Zoloft is what two of my kids take. They have been on it long enough for me to not worry. daughter in law was recently taken off Zoloft, and I think needs to go back on it. The new medication is causing her a lot more trouble. I once took the medication she is taking and had similar extreme mood swings and depression. It would hit half an hour after taking my morning dose, it was nasty. I reckoned at the time that Stephen King must be on that stuff, it caused such vivid, nasty nightmares that I could have written some bestseller horror books. Considering I didn't have depression to start with (I was on the medications for pain relief) suddenly being depressed for no reason felt really, really weird.

    Taking all this into account (the good and the bad, as well as the worrying) I would still seriously consider antidepressant medications, under careful supervision, for a teen who is Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), has anger and anxiety issues and is threatening to self-harm.

    For me it's a no-brainer.

    Marg
     
  9. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    Was it Effexor? *shudder* I took that stuff twice and told the doctor I would never take it again. Gave me night terrors, though luckily no actual nightmares, since I'm naturally a vivid (and often lucid) dreamer. I did well on Zoloft when I needed it, but my half-sis went off deep end on it.
     
  10. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    Chemical name moclobemide. Here it's called Aurorix. According to Wikipedia, it is not approved for use in the US. For all your sakes, I hope it stays that way. My nightmares were detailed, vivid and with some really nasty twisted stuff in them. I think in one of them, I was dissecting my own daughter...

    Marg
     
  11. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    When I dream (or remember my dreams, rather), I have weird dreams. During pregnancy when you're supposed to have weird dreams, mine were the dreams that most people consider "normal" but were strange to me, lol. A lot of my dreams are alternate future history type things. I dream in Sci-Fi, very vivid, colors, smells, sounds, touch, etc. It makes for great writing material for me. Doesn't happen as often as it used to, I miss it.
     
  12. Kjs

    Kjs Guest

    psychiatrist wants to see difficult child today. All is true. He has so much frustration and anger. When he gets frustrated then all heck breaks loose. He has the need for control It is scary because I see this with his girlfriend. what he "allows" her to do. I have talked to him about this, but he doesn't see it as a problem. He did try zoloft and it did not help at all. then when he went off of it that was a nightmare.
    I do believe he is depressed, however when the depersonalization hit, I do not think he was. He had a lot of friends and did ah lot of things. Played sports. All that ended with the onset of DP.

    So...the magic question...for someone who has such a need for control, so much frustration, anger and anxiety...HOW do you get them to do homework? Or any school work? HE has to be the one to make that decision. And the more I ask, the less he does. And, that leads to awful confrontations. You are all right on though. I was told way back in 4th grade that he has so much frustration, and when he gets frustrated he lashes out. When he gets an assignment, for example a test that has pages of questions, his automatic response is to quit. He doesn't see a test, or one question...he see's pages of work and feels overwhelmed and shuts down. Really he quits. Final exam for engineering. He had a B going into the final exam. How it ended up.....He got a 4 page final exam. He answered 4 questions and quit. However he KNEW he could quit. He figures out what he can get or doesn't have to do and still pass. So...ANY suggestions on HOW to get him to do his homework?
     
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