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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 142164" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>The way I see it, the other boy is far more in the wrong. difficult child has been identified as having problems and needing help with certain behaviours. Part of that help involves keeping the other boy out of difficult child's space. Yes, difficult child has to learn to behave more appropriately but if this were possible then he wouldn't be needing support, now would he?</p><p></p><p>The other boy, therefore, needs to be pulled into line and watched. He is clearly pushing difficult child's buttons and it seems to me he is doing it because he KNOWS it will get a reaction. Kids like the other boy get a big kick out of getting other kids into trouble while seeming to be totally innocent.</p><p></p><p>I am speaking from personal experience. I, too, used to say things like, "difficult child 3 has to learn self-control, he is not blameless in this, I will talk to him about not hitting other kids," when all the time I KNEW that difficult child 3 was reacting to being bullied repeatedly by kids, with teachers knowing what was going on and choosing to do nothing because they didn't personally see what was going on. The result of this was the other kids learning that difficult child 3 was a 'soft target', they could hassle HIM and get away with it, since the 'weird kid' would always be assumed to have done the wrong thing, especially since he was known to have behaviour problems. The end result - difficult child 3 was given a false reputation as a liar (because his story often didn't tally with the bullies' tales) and the word has got around so now difficult child 3 is a target with the younger siblings of the previous bullies. And not only difficult child 3 - other Aspie & autistic individuals, including an older man who lives nearby, are being hassled by these little charmers. And it doesn't happen much at all when we're not in our home space - this is a local problem, caused by the local school choosing to back away from bullying/difficult child parents, and instead criticise the kid who is already known to be a problem.</p><p></p><p>Your difficult child tried to do the right thing at first. Who knows what this other kid was saying or doing? A skilled bully can sneak in a sly pinch or, as used to happen regularly with difficult child 3, stab with something small and sharp like a pin or sharp pencil, and nobody in authority sees or believes it.</p><p></p><p>The kid is a bully. And from what we now see of his dad - we don't need to wonder where this kid learned it.</p><p></p><p>I agree, this other kid is going to see difficult child being moved, as a victory. The dad will see it as the school caving, and therefore both will see that what they did, their actions, were not only justified, they have paid off. This only reinforces the bad behaviour of both son and father.</p><p></p><p>Like your son, difficult child 3 had the most problems on days when he had substitute teachers. They either didn't know, or didn't think it was THAT important to insist on the kids being kept apart.</p><p></p><p>I would be fighting the move, tooth and nail. Instead, I would be pushing the school to give that father his wish and remove HIS son to another class. After all, surely HIS son is going to be more capable of coping with change?</p><p></p><p>I think you and husband need to open your eyes and realise that you are expecting more from your son than he is capable of giving; and you are also sending a message to the school and the bullies as follows, "I'm sorry you have to put up with our difficult child, please don't bully him too hard but if you do, we will find ways of excusing you."</p><p></p><p>Sorry to sound harsh, but in your words I hear myself - I thought I was a tigress on behalf of my son, but I have learnt a great deal over the last few years and seen how my son has blossomed when finally safe from the bullying. When I read back over the diary I was keeping, I am ashamed of myself and how I failed to properly support my son, in my efforts to placate his teachers and the other students.</p><p></p><p>What really began to open my eyes, and still almost brings me to tears of shame, was the report I got from the principal of his second school. At this school bullying was very tightly controlled and disciplined. difficult child 3 still says he was bullied there too, but it was far less and it was all verbal; none of the physical abuse he had been enduring.</p><p></p><p>The principal told me about the incident. difficult child 3 was still a very new student, it was only his first week. Another student got impatient with difficult child 3 while they were in the playground, said something to difficult child 3 along the lines of, "Get out of my way, you freak."</p><p>difficult child 3 just stood there and said to this other kid, "Aren't you going to hit me now?"</p><p>The other boy's reaction - he thought difficult child 3 was threatening him, daring him to hit him (a sort of, "Go on, hit me - and I'll hit you back so hard...") and because bullying and physical violence was so strictly banned, the other boy ran to get the principal ("the new boy is threatening me").</p><p>The principal quickly realised what was happening - difficult child 3 had, over the years, learned that certain things happen to him just because of who he is, and he just had to put up with it all and not make a fuss. The progression of events, according to difficult child 3, was, "first they call me names, then they beat me up. This boy called me names so that must mean he's now going to start hitting me. I don't want to delay the beating, I just want to get it over with."</p><p></p><p>If your son is thinking anything like that, having a known bully in his personal space would have felt very similar. "First that kid comes too close to me, then there are problems. Now here he comes again, it's starting all over like it always does when he comes close. I will tell him to go away. If he does not go away, that means he is going to start hitting me. I desperately want him to go away. Words aren't working."</p><p>A lot of this is not consciously thought, it's feelings at a gut level, compounded by past experience. It doesn't matter what rules you try and program into difficult child - if experience is teaching him otherwise, you will not succeed. What MUST happen - difficult child needs new experiences, ones where the GOOD techniques actually work; ones where the school staff enable the good techniques to work by enforcing the rules of 'no contact'.</p><p></p><p>I applaud your principal who took difficult child aside away from that other boy's father. If that man felt that shoving his son constituted assault, but saying what he did to difficult child was NOT an offence, then it's no wonder his son is such a problem.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 142164, member: 1991"] The way I see it, the other boy is far more in the wrong. difficult child has been identified as having problems and needing help with certain behaviours. Part of that help involves keeping the other boy out of difficult child's space. Yes, difficult child has to learn to behave more appropriately but if this were possible then he wouldn't be needing support, now would he? The other boy, therefore, needs to be pulled into line and watched. He is clearly pushing difficult child's buttons and it seems to me he is doing it because he KNOWS it will get a reaction. Kids like the other boy get a big kick out of getting other kids into trouble while seeming to be totally innocent. I am speaking from personal experience. I, too, used to say things like, "difficult child 3 has to learn self-control, he is not blameless in this, I will talk to him about not hitting other kids," when all the time I KNEW that difficult child 3 was reacting to being bullied repeatedly by kids, with teachers knowing what was going on and choosing to do nothing because they didn't personally see what was going on. The result of this was the other kids learning that difficult child 3 was a 'soft target', they could hassle HIM and get away with it, since the 'weird kid' would always be assumed to have done the wrong thing, especially since he was known to have behaviour problems. The end result - difficult child 3 was given a false reputation as a liar (because his story often didn't tally with the bullies' tales) and the word has got around so now difficult child 3 is a target with the younger siblings of the previous bullies. And not only difficult child 3 - other Aspie & autistic individuals, including an older man who lives nearby, are being hassled by these little charmers. And it doesn't happen much at all when we're not in our home space - this is a local problem, caused by the local school choosing to back away from bullying/difficult child parents, and instead criticise the kid who is already known to be a problem. Your difficult child tried to do the right thing at first. Who knows what this other kid was saying or doing? A skilled bully can sneak in a sly pinch or, as used to happen regularly with difficult child 3, stab with something small and sharp like a pin or sharp pencil, and nobody in authority sees or believes it. The kid is a bully. And from what we now see of his dad - we don't need to wonder where this kid learned it. I agree, this other kid is going to see difficult child being moved, as a victory. The dad will see it as the school caving, and therefore both will see that what they did, their actions, were not only justified, they have paid off. This only reinforces the bad behaviour of both son and father. Like your son, difficult child 3 had the most problems on days when he had substitute teachers. They either didn't know, or didn't think it was THAT important to insist on the kids being kept apart. I would be fighting the move, tooth and nail. Instead, I would be pushing the school to give that father his wish and remove HIS son to another class. After all, surely HIS son is going to be more capable of coping with change? I think you and husband need to open your eyes and realise that you are expecting more from your son than he is capable of giving; and you are also sending a message to the school and the bullies as follows, "I'm sorry you have to put up with our difficult child, please don't bully him too hard but if you do, we will find ways of excusing you." Sorry to sound harsh, but in your words I hear myself - I thought I was a tigress on behalf of my son, but I have learnt a great deal over the last few years and seen how my son has blossomed when finally safe from the bullying. When I read back over the diary I was keeping, I am ashamed of myself and how I failed to properly support my son, in my efforts to placate his teachers and the other students. What really began to open my eyes, and still almost brings me to tears of shame, was the report I got from the principal of his second school. At this school bullying was very tightly controlled and disciplined. difficult child 3 still says he was bullied there too, but it was far less and it was all verbal; none of the physical abuse he had been enduring. The principal told me about the incident. difficult child 3 was still a very new student, it was only his first week. Another student got impatient with difficult child 3 while they were in the playground, said something to difficult child 3 along the lines of, "Get out of my way, you freak." difficult child 3 just stood there and said to this other kid, "Aren't you going to hit me now?" The other boy's reaction - he thought difficult child 3 was threatening him, daring him to hit him (a sort of, "Go on, hit me - and I'll hit you back so hard...") and because bullying and physical violence was so strictly banned, the other boy ran to get the principal ("the new boy is threatening me"). The principal quickly realised what was happening - difficult child 3 had, over the years, learned that certain things happen to him just because of who he is, and he just had to put up with it all and not make a fuss. The progression of events, according to difficult child 3, was, "first they call me names, then they beat me up. This boy called me names so that must mean he's now going to start hitting me. I don't want to delay the beating, I just want to get it over with." If your son is thinking anything like that, having a known bully in his personal space would have felt very similar. "First that kid comes too close to me, then there are problems. Now here he comes again, it's starting all over like it always does when he comes close. I will tell him to go away. If he does not go away, that means he is going to start hitting me. I desperately want him to go away. Words aren't working." A lot of this is not consciously thought, it's feelings at a gut level, compounded by past experience. It doesn't matter what rules you try and program into difficult child - if experience is teaching him otherwise, you will not succeed. What MUST happen - difficult child needs new experiences, ones where the GOOD techniques actually work; ones where the school staff enable the good techniques to work by enforcing the rules of 'no contact'. I applaud your principal who took difficult child aside away from that other boy's father. If that man felt that shoving his son constituted assault, but saying what he did to difficult child was NOT an offence, then it's no wonder his son is such a problem. Marg [/QUOTE]
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