not sure where to put this.........relationship ****

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by ready2run, Jul 19, 2011.

  1. ready2run

    ready2run New Member

    i am getting really upset and frustrated. i think my other half is a difficult child and i am at my wits end with him. at this point i wonder what i ever saw in him and i think i may just be banging my head against the wall trying to get him to come around. my first issue with him is that he doesn't have any patience with the kids, especially difficult child who is his son, not mine. i do everything for difficult child because husband's response to everything he does is to either spank him or yell like a maniac. he is like that to the other kids too but a lesser extent. i am tired, nothing i do is ever right. he criticizes my parenting because while i do spend most of my time watching the kids there are times when i let them go play in their rooms together unsupervised and he gets really mad at me for it because they might fight and he thinks i have to have them in my sight 24/7 which is exhausting me. he is also getting mad at me for letting my parents come visit. he doesn't want anyone to come over, ever. we just moved on friday to be closer to my parents. i have told them that they have to call before they come over and that was supposed to make him happy because he doesn't want them dropping by whenever they want but it's not like they are always here and they only stay half an hour. he doesn't want them to touch anything in the house, basically saying if they come here they can only sit on the couch and be quiet(as he expects of the kids, not realistic) i feel like i have to explain everything to him and he still doesn't get it. he can't figure out the simplest tasks like putting dishes away or lighting the bbq. it's frustrating. like he's an extra child, only bigger and ruder. i feel like crying. i just got yelled at and called names because he was napping in the basement and i was trying to find something quiet to do so got the laptop out and sat at the table. he heard me do that and freaked out, accusing me of banging things around and re-arranging the furniture while he's sleeping even though it's obvious that nothing is moved. i am so sad. so worn down. i used to be such a happy go with the flow, free spirited type person and i feel like he is sucking all the fun out of my life. i can't even talk to people without him getting angry at me. he accuses me of flirting with men all the time and calls me a ***** when i am just being polite to people. i don't know what to do. i can't leave, or i won't leave. there must be something else i can do. stop catering to his demands and maybe eventually he will give up on trying to isolate me and make me be someone i'm not?
     
  2. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    Oh sweetheart. :hugs: first of all.

    Something that I learned... From experience, and I mentioned it just recently too... The stress of having a difficult child in the house can make any relationship suffer.

    It's not necessarily the huge things - those, husband and I were always on the same page (usually having to do with BM... Sigh)... It was the nonstop little stuff. Last week, I noticed something he had done that, 6 months ago, would have pushed me over the edge and made me scream - but we have only had one snappy-type issue at all since Onyxx left. And, it was over something about Onyxx, of course. It wasn't her fault - not at all. She just happened to be the catalyst.

    There were reasons you married him, Know what I mean?? Are they totally gone, or are all the anthills piling up and making you so stressed you can't handle them?

    FWIW - when husband was working 2nd shift, he and I nearly split up. The thing was - in retrospect - he heard only negative things about Onyxx but never saw them... But, he almost never saw her, either. He didn't see the attitude, the theft, the bovine manure. Jett and I did - day in and day out. And when he was laid off? She honeymooned for about a month and then started her koi again. Only this time, he got to see it, and things got a LOT better. We had fights, of course. And I was horribly stressed. The worst of it always happened when he wasn't home. Daddy's little girl got away with a lot that I would not have let happen, just because husband didn't see what was going on. Then he did again. And then she finally dug herself in too deep, and here we are.

    Has it always been like this?
     
  3. PatriotsGirl

    PatriotsGirl Guest

    I agree with what difficult children can do to a relationship. When difficult child lived here our house was always in turmoil. It was just the energy she brings in to a room (and she still brings that energy with her when she comes over). husband and I were constantly at odds over her. It was awful and SO many times I just wanted to call it quits. I am SO glad we lasted through it. Our relationship has truly never been better as it is with her gone.

    I am very concerned about him getting mad when you talk to people, not wanting anyone to come over and accusing you of cheating. This sounds very much like the beginning of a control situation. My sister left a very controlling man that she was with since she was 14. It started the way you are describing and much later in their relationship. Anyone would shudder and curl up in a ball if I told them what her "punishments" were if she wanted to go anywhere or do anything. She was not allowed to work. She was not allowed to do anything but care for the children. They had six of them. I seriously thought my sister was going to kill herself she was so depressed. She left him and moved in with our mother, met the man of her dreams who is absolutely wonderful with her children and I believe she will live happily ever after.

    Anyhow I digress, please take care of yourself, please be mindful and please come up with a back up plan should you need it.
     
  4. seriously

    seriously New Member

    Those are not good signs. yes, difficult child's can be tough but that is intimidation and bordering on domestic violence in my opinion.

    I strongly suggest you call the local women's shelter/domestic violence hotline and ask to talk to someone there. Besides talking to the on-call counselor they may have support groups for couples or for women in your kind of situation.

    Sounds to me like your husband is playing dumb, trying to manipulate you into being co-dependent. If he persists in putting you in that role I think you are going to have to get out while you can do so safely.

    I'm sorry if I sound reactive and pessimistic. But I have seen a couple of friends/acquaintances go through similar things and they both ended badly with actual violence after the woman spent months/years trying to "make things better" and be understanding.

    Couples counseling is definitely called for and if he refuses to go or participate then you will have to decide how you want to proceed.

    I would let the women's shelter counselor guide you on whether/how to bring up the fact that his behavior could be seen as domestic violence/intimidation. It may shock him into changing his behavior. or it might send things in the other direction.

    Hugs - sorry this is happening to you.
     
  5. keista

    keista New Member

    (((((HUGS)))))

    Yeah, it sounds like you have a grown difficult child on your hands. been there done that and wish I could be positive and supportive for you, but I can't. That doesn't mean that you can't make this work, BUT it sounds like it will be a LOT of work.

    #1 Sounds like he makes all sorts of demands on you. What, if any, are your demands on him? It would seem only fair that in a partnership - marriage - that for each of his demands, you got to make a demand as well. If he refuses to see it that way, then maybe a marriage counselor can get that concept into his head.

    #2 He needs some parenting skills, and that's not even addressing difficult child parenting skills. Schedule some family therapy sessions for you and him to address parenting techniques for difficult child and the other kids. If he refuses to understand that he needs assistance in that capacity, then maybe a marriage counselor can get that concept into his head.

    #3 "stop catering to his demands and maybe eventually he will give up on trying to isolate me and make me be someone i'm not?" Sure, give it a try, but I am TRULY concerned that if you did this he may get violent with you. This is a man who thinks nothing of striking a child and 'screaming like a maniac'.

    Please remember that this man is not only your husband, but the male role model of YOUR children. Do you really want your daughter to identify this as being 'normal' male behavior and end up with a similar mate herself, someday?

    OK, I just had an epiphany and found something that may help you move forward in a POSITIVE light, BUT it will also REQUIRE your husband to be on board. Since the apples don't fall far from the trees, chances are, that husband also has some or all (and possibly other) of the same dxs as difficult child. Has he ever been screened or evaluated for anything? His anger and frustration could be stemming from seeing the world differently than "normal" ppl. If he's willing to give this concept even the slightest consideration, you can both move forward from there.
    I GET that. I really, really do. If my husband had not left, I'd still be struggling dealing with my "fourth child". But as difficult and devastating as it was when he did leave, I was instantly filled with an inner calm and peace. It was so dramatic that my friends noticed it over the phone. I wish I could be more positive.

    PS If he thinks you should be watching the kids 24/7 PROVE to him how ridiculous that is. Start sleeping in their rooms. Ah, yeah, sex is out of the question because you MUST watch the kids. Did you want something , Hon? Sorry, I MUST watch the kids, can't help you right now. In my experience this tactic will work only temporarily and not without a huge blowout at first.
     
  6. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    Sigh. I'm not sure where to go with-this. I'm leaving the comments to others ... especially not knowing exactly how isolated you are. Sheesh.
    I am so sorry.
    I'll support whatever you decide to do.
     
  7. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    The others are wrong. This is not beginning to be abuse. This is already an abusive relationship. You must have eyes on the kids at every moment, meaning he is controlling your every moment. He has no skills to handle problems except hitting and yelling. It won't be "just" the kids for very long. He is isolating you from all others, esp family. When family does come over they must sit still and say nothing.

    His expectations are far beyond not reasonable into delusional, in my humble opinion. Thinking kids would sit and do nothing and not talk is irrational. Expecting adults to do it shows that he has no grip on reality at least as far as this subject. And it is SCARY.

    His accusations bring this to almost textbook domestic violence, even if he isn't hitting you or being physically violent yet. ignoring him is NOT going to fix things. He is NOT going to stup until he HAS to, and that might only be because he is in prison for killing someone. This is NOT rational behavior. you CANNOT deal with it rationally by using logic. You also are making the situation HUGeLY more dangerous and volatile by just "not catering" to him. So far you HAVe done what he wants with his current actions. When that control over you slips, or he thinks it does, he will take it to another level.

    Leaving is a choice. IF you want to stay with him and raise healthy kids, you MUST get healthy yourself. That means therapy to see why you would choose a relationship with a man who treats you this way. If you leave and don't get this therapy? You will just find another like him. Period.

    What CAN you do? Go and call the local domestic violence center and talk with them. Do an intake session where you talka bout what is going on and what they have to offer and what they have to recommend for you. The help is free. They will have indiv therapy and group therapy and even, when you are both ready, couples therapy. It is free. They can help you see your options clearly and help you make a well thought out choice.

    If nothing else, please go and talk to them so that you can teach your children that this is not the way relationships are supposed to be. By staying and not getting help, you are teaching your children to look for this type of relationship. Look at your daughter. Remember how much you loved her the minute you looked at her and held her. Now think forward to her in a relationshp with a man who did to her what your husband is doing to you.

    Is that truly what you want for her? Should you teach her how to handle a relationship like that if she finds herself in one? Or just ignore it, try to ignore husband with-o getting real help, and know that you are teaching her to go and find a man to treat your precious baby the way your husband treats you.
     
  8. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    Well - I agree with Susie * 100% THIS IS ABUSE. YOU NEED TO LEAVE - Get in touch with a Domestic Violence Shelter and find out what you need to do to keep yourself SAFE and get a PLAN and GET OUT. ASAP.

    Domestic Violence is a CYCLE - He is alienating you from your FAMILY - CONTROLLING your EVERY move.....TELLING YOU WHEN you CAN and CAN'T talk, HOW to TALK, WHAT you can SAY.

    HE IS CALLING YOU NAMES in front of the children........

    THIS IS NOT love ------THIS IS DOMESTIC VIOLENCE. YOU NEED HELP - and YOU NEED TO GET AWAY - WHILE YOU CAN - BEFORE SOMETHING HAPPENS THAT YOU CAN'T GET AWAY.



    FIrst of all - If you have NOT been hit or threatened to have been hit? I would suspect it's coming. He's already spanking the children. He's not in control of his anger, emotions, or himself. He is dangerous and out of control.

    SO if there IS "saving" this marriage - WHY would you BOTHER to do it while you are IN THE HOME? You can SAVE it if you like - ANYWHERE you are SAFE. Sadly I would suspect that you are NOT married and the children are HIS....not YOURS or "ours" so they would not be able to go with you. This is why a DOMESTIC VIOLENCE WOMENS SHELTER needs to be called in. THEY have the power to take the children, place them with members of the family or temporarily put them with people that CAN see to it they are NOT spanked or abused, assessed, and ALSO ------(MOST IMPORTANTLY) if he's willing - GET HIM HELP - and GET YOUR FAMILY REUNIFICAITON. IF he is NOT ineterested in putting himself into counseling for his anger and abuse on his family? Then at least you.....

    GOT YOURSELF out ALIVE -
    GOT SAFETY FOR THE CHILDREN
    and STOPPED THE CIRCLE OF ABUSE - becuase CHILDREN WILL REPEAT WHAT THEY SEE AND ARE SHOWN TO THEIR CHILDREN GENERATION AFTER GENERATION
    GAVE HIM A CHANCE TO HEAL HIMSELF< AND PUT HIS FAMILY TOGETHER IN A HEALTHY MANNER

    THese things do NOT happen over night - they do not happen in a snap - BUT - SNAPPING IN ANGER AND HURTING SOMEONE POSSIBLY IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT AND EVEN KILLING SOMEONE IN ANGER OR ACCIDENTALLY? DOES......HE.IS.NOT.IN.CONTROL. AT.ALL.

    By trying to control everything around him right down to telling your parents HOW to behave when they are at your home? HE IS LOOSING A GRIP ON REALITY AND YOU KNOW IT .......IT WILL ONLY GET WORSE.

    Trust me - I've been there - I was married to a psychopath, I spent time in the ICU, I should be dead, I got out barely - and it took me FIFTEEN YEARS two times a week in therapy to get my head screwed back on and I stayed in my marriage for THIRTEEN YEARS BEGGING FOR HIM TO CHANGE......he kept me isolated, from family, no friends, and abused our only son. IT DOES NOT GET BETTER.

    If you think you can change him with love ? WRong......
    If you think he'll change with old age and mellow? WRONG .....
    If you think once the kids are grown? WRONG
    Once youhave more money? WRONG
    Once he gets a break - poor guy - WRONG
    If things would only go his way a little - WRONG..
    If you were smarter, PRettier, JUST DID THINGS BETTER, FASTER, THE EXACT WAY HE WANTED THEM, WORKED FOUR JOBS NOT THREE..........WRONG WRONG WRONG...
    IF YOU WERE SEXIER, THINNER, HAD NICER HAIR, BLONDER, MORE BRUNETTE, BETTER IN BED, SLUTTIER, BETTER AT EVERYTHING HE LIKED..WRONG>>>>>>AGAIN.

    IT WILL NEVER GET BETTER NO MATTER WHAT - IT CAN calm down ----for a moment - but this will NEVER.....EVER get better -----and eventually he will use the things YOU LIKE ------against you--and threaten you...with them.

    GET HELP.....GET OUT......and PLEASE DO NOT think I'm jerking your chain.........and DELETE........EVERYTING You are doing on the internet - HE IS WATCHING YOU......and everything you do - everywhere you go and anyone you talk to. Of that you can be sure.

    Even IF -----you think you are so clever ........he'd never find out.

    Domestic Violence hotlines are everywhere - so if you DO call ? Delete THAT off the phone (s) in your house when you call to - or go somehwere and do it there. The numbers you call in the house will show up on ALL your house phones and he'll look to see EVERY number you call every day - maybe even have another box somewhere in your house to record all your calls.

    Just be safe.....

    Hugs

    and I will (for the sake of being positive and in a Christian light) say this. I DID not have an easy choice to make because I did NOT get married to get divorced. I did NOT take my vows lightly especially the parts that I said in front of the Almightly - for Better or WORSE in SICKNESS and in health to death do you part.....BUT I can if you need quote you every single scripture as it was quoted to me by my pastor that THIS MARRIAGE should not exist....and what those scriptures are because I had a very hard time LEAVING based on what I believed about marriage. So if it's a religious aspect that keeps you there? SEEK PASTORAL COUNSELING AND DV counseling. Because the Bible says Treat your wife like Christ treated the Church. Jesus never treated the church with abuse. Ever. There are no good excuses for staying in an abusive relationship - not even "My religion and vows say so." For better or worse didn't mean this, netiher did till death PARTS us and he kills me. - Just so you know. And like I said - Separation does not mean divorce, and you can give him an opportunity to work on his family and himself - while you get yourself and self confidence back. Don't go running back....figure out what's best for you. If he loves you - that's what he'll want too.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2011
  9. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Ditto Star and Susie, hon. It's not all in your head. It's abuse. And you simply can not change an abuser.

    ((((hugs))))
     
  10. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    Adding my support to what Star, Susie, and similar added. Isolation, total control, unmitigated anger... it only gets worse. No, I'm not speaking from personal experience, but I have seen it, it's a common pattern.
     
  11. Malika

    Malika Well-Known Member

    I too completely understand the "cant leave, wont leave". But I think this can actually change over time until you reach a point where you are willing to do anything to have peace and manageability in your life... In any event, my warmest thoughts and sympathy. Hugs.
     
  12. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    I'm going to comment again here. Yes, what you are getting from your H is abuse. I cannot argue that. A DV shelter will have all kinds of information for you. It is UP TO YOU what you do with it.

    It IS possible for people to change. What is NOT possible is you changing HIM, as Star said. HE has to change HIM, YOU worry about YOU (and the kids).

    IF he is at all willing (and you would know best) to attempt counseling - see if you can have someone else bring it up. "Oh, it must be hard on your marriage to have difficult child acting up like that, have you thought about family or marital counseling?" You do it, and it's likely to cause an explosion. Someone else does - in a roundabout way - it doesn't sound like you're talking out of turn, and he may get upset but at least it won't be at you. If it DOES turn toward you - GET OUT.

    Also. You're posting here... Please please understand that if it gets found... He may go "off the deep end". Clear your history.

    And lastly - he doesn't want anyone coming over - does he have a problem with you leaving the house? I wasn't clear on that.
     
  13. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    Counseling is great. It is something that both you and husband both need, as do the kids and the family as a group (and you and husband as a couple, because the relationship is a separate entity just as if it was another person - ditto for the family).

    Regular therapists have some experience with domestic violence. You really NEED a therapist who is expert in domestic violence issues, not someone familiar or with some experience. Also therapy is expensive. But DV centers usually have it for FREE for those who need it. This INCLUDES therapy for the abusers.

    PLEASE go to a dv center for evaluation. You can go there and not live there. It is the best way to get the right kinds of therapy to fit your situation.
     
  14. ready2run

    ready2run New Member

    thanks for all the replies. i will try to answer some questions.... we got married and we didn't really know each other well. quite frankly he was a 'fling' that wasn't meant to last more than a weekend and i ended pregnant for my son and so we tried to build a relationship together. he has always been bossy, since my son was born. it hasn't really gotten worse other than the isolating thing but i am not going to co-operate with that. last night i told him that my parents WERE going to come over and he WAS going to be polite with them. it worked out okay although there wasn't all that much chit-chat. difficult child is his son. if i were not here i don't know what would happen to him. he has no other family and i don't know if the courts or whatever would let me take him. he would either have to stay here where dad pretty much blames him for all wrong in the world or go be bounced around in foster care which is where he was before i got him out. it was me that went to court and did everything to prove difficult child could be here and be taken care of. we bought a house together but it's all in his name. i have invested alot in this house, alot more than he has. my parents have also payed the downpayment for us and are helping us fix it up. i owe them thousands of dollars and if i leave i will still have to pay them that but i'll have nothing left to show for it. i don't want to give up my house, i just bought it and i want to keep it. husband knows he is mentally unstable, he won't admit it most of the time but has discussed it with me. if he would only go back on his medication i think that would help but he keeps saying he will and then he doesn't. he also says he thinks he was like difficult child when he was little but he doesn't know for sure because he was bounced around since 5 and has no one to ask. so far he has not hit me or threatened violence. he does threaten that i will have to leave and he will win the boys because he has difficult child and the courts here try to keep kids together if they can. i know he won't get them though. i can relate to whomever it was that said they had a sense of releif when their husband left. i feel like that to a lesser extent whenever he goes out, like right now. i can do whatever i want and the kids can play without having to worry about anything. also, i have my computer history set up to automatically delete itself when the internet closes. i know he checks what i've been doing. i will try to figure out how to get someone to talk to him about counselling.
     
  15. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    :hugs:

    OK, something you may not know, but if there is a domestic violence situation and you take your stepson to the shelter? You may not end up with custody, but if your H gets charged, he will NOT get the others in a custody battle. Period. If there is no other parent available? You can petition for custody (or interim custody) of your stepson. They DO like to keep the kids together...

    Unfortunately I don't know a whole lot about Canada. Ugh.
     
  16. keista

    keista New Member

    Why isn't the house in both your names? If he INSISTED it go in just his, you do have another red flag right there. HOWEVER
    I pulled that from this website http://www.ottawadivorce.com/propertydivision.htm. If you don't already, get all the records together of what you and your parents paid vs what he paid.

    His "threats" of getting the kids are as baseless as my husband's I LOLed at his difficult child logic. He has difficult child, so by default he will get the other boys too. Hmmmmmmmm wasn't difficult child in foster care before you came around? Although I commend you for 'rescuing' that little boy, in my opinion (yes, I know courts never do what I think they should) the court should have only allowed it if husband sought treatment (assuming that's why husband didn't have him in the first place.)

    Hopefully you can get husband back on his medications. Does he say why he won't take them? Is he that much better with them? Maybe he needs them tweaked? The fact that he thinks he remembers being like difficult child as a kid is confirmation enough. Try telling him that you want the children's lives to be 'happier' than yours were as kids (sounds like he had it really rough) and the only way to make that happen for them is for HIM to be better NOW. this was a mantra that husband and I shared, but as the years went on, It seemed as if husband was JEALOUS that the kids were getting a better and more stable life than he had. The difference in my situation was that husband did NOT have a diagnosis, NEVER took medications (except for alcohol and LOTS of it) and thought he was perfectly FINE.

    Yes, continue to gently push husband to his own personal healing, but do protect and prepare yourself. Marriage 'should' make two ppl better than when they started. Each should foster the emotional growth of the other - not tear it down. You should not become a shell of your former self. The advice the others gave regarding DV shelters is excellent.

    You and your family will remain in my thoughts and prayers for a very long time.
     
  17. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    There IS no excuse for I CAN NOT LEAVE.........NONE EVER. I will challenge ANY ----excuse ESPECIALLY with a child involved.

    Hi Ready -

    I thought I would educate instead of coming on really strong (sorry about that) I just see you in a lot of turmoil right now, not getting accurate information from him, and......understandably things are SO NOT FAIR. You've worked hard, your parents have put a great deal of money into a house for you and him,you've put a ton of sweat equity into that,your life, his life, a son & his son, and you have been handed a GOB of misinformation as to what will happen should you choose to do something for yourself and your son.

    I thought I would hand you SOME FACTS about what DOES happen TO YOUR SON - if you do NOT decide for YOUR SON to take him from the current situation. See he has NO CHOICE. You...do. The violence that he is seeing now, the rude behavior towards women, the controlling behavior,the rudeness towards parents? All these things that his Father does? HE WILL Emulate because he WILL strive to BE - JUST.LIKE. DAD. 100% and then some. There will be NO disciplining him, spanking him, talking to him, putting him in the corner, taking the toys away to change the behavior. Actually truth be known he could be worse than Dad. Which behaviors like this and worse statistically and most likely will end your child up into a sad life, possibly trouble with the law, incarceration, drugs, or worse. Ask anyone here if I am painting this picture blacker than it is - just to get a jolt out of it. I'm not lying. I'm stating FACTS. Domestic violence housed children RARELY grow up to turn the opposite way and hate how they were raised and do the opposite. While it is possible? It's rarely happened. They usually behave the same as their Fathers, pick women that are shy, kind and then treat them JUST LIKE their MOthers were treated by their Fathers and perpetuate the cycle.

    So I've listed some facts here - for you to look over. I'm in NO WAY - advocating divorce. Like I said - GO TALK TO your pastor or whomever you get your spiritual counseling from if that's your thing. I DO advocate safety and self esteem FIRST for you, your children and peace through understanding and caring. I absolutely do NOT belive in hitting and violence in a domestic manner PERIOD.....through intimidation, mind games, words, verbal abuse, or physical violence. I am a large woman, I don't take junk from no one, and I walked away from EVERYTHING -----and I mean EVERYTHING------and lived on the street with my son in a stolen van with NO WHERE TO GO - no family - NO MONEY --and only $20 in emergency food stamps - and I'd do it again to have the peace in my heart and mind I have now -----and now? I have a home, and a son that is getting himself turned around, and a life. I'd give it all up again to have 1/2 a chance to save my son - and work 3 jobs again to save my son - it was worth it. That house, the pool, the clothes, the truck - the furniture? Don't miss it at all......NOT AT ALL....it can rot. But my kid won't.

    Here's the web site - hope you get a moment to look at the articles there. www.growing .com

    I really mean it when I say - STOP .....THINK....and DO SOMETHING FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE........JUST.FOR.YOUR.FUTURE...TEN YEARS FROM NOW to make YOUR LIFE and your SONS' life......BETTER. WIth or WITHOUT THAT PARTICULAR HOUSE? HOW MUCH BETTER WILL YOU BE IF YOU >>>>>>(fill in your own blank)

    Hugs & LOVE - I mean that......Star


    Here is the web site - www.growing.com = I would tell YOU to pay SPECIAL attention to the WHEEL.......It helps us from MAKING EXCUSES for the abuser.....

    Lots of information there.
     
  18. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    Something else to add to what Star is saying. You also have a daughter. She will emulate you (Onyxx emulated BM, only worse, as Star pointed out. It's ugly). If she sees you strong enough to not put up with the koi? She will see that's the right thing to do. If she sees you as a doormat? She will become one as well.
     
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