too harsh or not enough? school time outs.

[ready2run]

my 5yo is in SK and he gets in trouble alot. i believe he is autistic or aspergers, no diagnosis as of yet. he doesn't like other kids, he doesn't like playing with them and he has been acting like a clown in order to make people laugh. he is hyper, he just is. he also has a problem keeping his hands to himself. other than that he is a good boy. he is very affectionate and sensitive to what others say and do to him.
so he gets in trouble and the teacher takes away recess. he misses recess, so he gets 'extra' hyper. she takes more recesses. he acts out(being silly, won't sit, ect.) because he is trapped in his classroom, so he gets gym taken away. it seems like he's always on time out. i mean, i get it. he's hyper. he hits other kids sometimes either out of playfulness or because he thinks they are being bad. i know he needs to be disciplined but i have issue with him being deprived of recesses and gym time as he really needs that to be able to sit down and work during class time. he also gets 'detention' during recess for more then one day sometimes. this drags yesterdays problems into a whole other day and makes it hard for him to have a good day that day as well. so i was dropping off difficult child @ school and the vice-principle came out to say hi to me, so i told him i was concerned about the amount of time my 5yo gets recess taken from him. he agrees with me that it might not be fair at that age for the consequence to go into the next day and got where i was coming from, but said that the sk/jk teachers handle most of their problems 'in house' because they are so little it is too scary for them to go to the office and have to talk to the principle, ect. so he says talk to the teacher about it, she should have some other ideas for disciplining him. i hate talking to the teacher. she is a witch. my 5yo loves her to bits and she says it's 'not appropriate' for him to have affection for her...*grrr.. anyways, so i had to call and make an appointment for her to call me back, which i also hate doing. she calls me back and sounds like i am sooo inconveniencing her by having her call me. i tell her what i'm thinking, careful to make it about him, not about her. i also told her that he wakes up in the night worrying about recess/detention and is starting to say he hates school, ect. she says he doesn't mind, he doesn't complain about it in class and that he just needs to make better choices. i know that, that's not my point. she says he gets the same punishments as anyone else who does those things and she has to make it equal for everyone or she won't have a safe classroom and she'll have 18 kids running wild. she was very defensive and sounded insulted.
so am i wrong?

 

[InsaneCdn]

so am i wrong?

Shortest answer: NO!

In some schools, neither recess nor PE could be taken away from ANY kid - except by medical request (like, a kid recovering from a head injury...)
They can restrict what the kid can do at recess - haven't seen this one, but on another thread, somebody was talking about a "walking recess" - can't go to the playground, have to walk with a teacher or aide - plus other walkers, some by choice and some not.
I've seen play-ground equip off-limits for recess, for being out of control in class... kid is allowed to RUN, but not on swings and such.
In one school I'm aware of, whenever the class got restless (read, more than 20% of kids...), the whole class went to the bootroom for a game of silent-ball for 5-10 mins. Another teacher allowed the kids to "wheelbarrel" down the halls - quietly - whole class doing it! (same reason).

There are lots of other privs that can be created and then managed... those who behave, are allowed to use free-time in a special part of the room (one K had a piano there...), the rest have to stay at their desks...

But to restrict the opportunity to burn off steam?
There's a good chance that before the year is out, there may be a teacher with a lot less hair.

 

[TeDo]

I'm not sure how things are in Canada but here in the US, this is what I would recommend. Take your son to be evaluated by a PhD CHILD psychologist or a neuropsychologist ASAP. At the same time put a formal request in writing that you want your son evaluated for special education services (keep a copy yourself). Address it to the Principal AND the Director of Special Education in your school district. If he DOES have any "disabilities", he shouldn't be receiving the same punishment as all the other kids. They should be teaching skills not punishing the lack of skills. The biggest thing YOU can do is take him to be evaluated and make sure the school does whatever it has to to educate him. A diagnosis would be ammunition. The teacher can't ignore what a PROFESSIONAL has said.

{{{{(((HUGS)))}}}} to you AND your son.

 

[ready2run]

okay, so i am not the only one who thinks taking recess away is not fair. he is allowed to do certain things instead of recess. the teacher thinks he has no imagination(he actually has a great imagination, he's just shy about it) so she allows him to play little people at his desk or sit quiet and work on his writting. when she is not there, and the other lady (i have no idea who she is or if she's a teacher or what) is there she doesn't allow him anything and he has peed his pants while she had him on time out because everytime he tried to ask for the washroom she said 'NO talking!' i am just mad, i think, because it is making him hate school. he has never really liked school but he had been going without complaining about it and starting to make friends for the first time ever until this time out every recess thing started. i am thinking about going to talk to the vice-principle again. the teacher did offer an alternative of sending him to the detention hall for lunch/recess instead. i didn't like the way she said that to me like she was holding it over my head to make me go along with her way.

 

[ready2run]

I'm not sure how things are in Canada but here in the US, this is what I would recommend. Take your son to be evaluated by a PhD CHILD psychologist or a neuropsychologist ASAP. At the same time put a formal request in writing that you want your son evaluated for special education services (keep a copy yourself). Address it to the Principal AND the Director of Special Education in your school district. If he DOES have any "disabilities", he shouldn't be receiving the same punishment as all the other kids. They should be teaching skills not punishing the lack of skills. The biggest thing YOU can do is take him to be evaluated and make sure the school does whatever it has to to educate him. A diagnosis would be ammunition. The teacher can't ignore what a PROFESSIONAL has said.

{{{{(((HUGS)))}}}} to you AND your son.

we are working on a diagnosis. free health care comes with a cost....long waiting lists. it will be a year or more at the soonest for him to get in to see someone. he has been on the wait list for almost a year now. took this long just to get in to a nurse who can refer him to a doctor. seriously. i am positive he will have some kind of disabiliy. it is obvious when you meet him he is different then the other kids.

i have already had some exceptions made for him. he used to get punished for wandering during free time because he 'has' to do something. he doesn't know what to do, he doesn't know which kids are 'safe' and so he just walks back and forth looking for the spot where he fits in. they are supposed to be working on helping him figure out how to approach the other kids to play with them or how to find an open activity where he can be alone. they talked to the other kids about helping friends out and since then there are a couple kids who will invite him to their activities and offer him a turn with things.

 

[InsaneCdn]

I think R2R has a problem with access to services... as in, "out in the boonies", not "in Canada"...

And usually, "out in the boonies" = teachers and school admins who are at least 40 years behind (or so it seems).

(I'm not so bad off - we're just 20 years behind around here)

Teachers and schools CAN ignore professional evaluations... but usually, you get at least some level of recognition that there is a problem that isn't "just behavior or attitude". What they DO about it? well, go toss a pair of dice around looking for a double-six. Might get it... but the odds of getting what the kid actually needs are... unpredictable.

R2R... if there's any way to access services from where you are, pursuing a comprehensive evaluation is a good thing.
Probably won't get neuropsychologist in Canada...

 

[ready2run]

we have a child psychiatrist that comes to town every three months for a week.... so yeah, it takes a while to get in.

with difficult child we started looking for help when he was 2. it took almost 4 years to get a diagnosis and that was because he was not allowed in school until he got a 'medical intervention'.

 

[TeDo]

If he truly does have ADHD and it is diagnosed by a professional, taking recess & gym away is the WORST thing she can do. That is like taking an amputees artificial limb away and expecting to function as if they still had it. A child with adhd HAS to be allowed to burn off the excess energy.

The only way to get anything changed is to have him officially evaluated and diagnosed. They are torturing him and (as we found out through similar events this last spring) it can get him to the point that he gets very depressed. NO child should have to suffer like that at the hands of adults. Talking to the principal isn't going to help much from the sounds of it. If nothing else, tell him that you want your son evaluated for special education services then follow it up in writing. I'm sorry you are where I was and I HAD an IEP.

 

[ready2run]

it feels like he is being tortured to me, so it's funny that you say that. what she is doing is going to make him act out worse and that is going to become habit to him. he needs to be able to get it out of his system. he doesn't have an official diagnosis of adhd. i have been told by 2 docs that they think he has it but we don't have a family doctor so there is no one to really be that involved with him at this point, until we get in to see someone. i think the vice-principle might step in and force the teacher if i ask him to. him and i seem to be able to work pretty well together. he has helped me alot in dealing with difficult child's teacher and also he was my math teacher when i was in high school so i've known him for a long time.

 

[TeDo]

I really hope talking to him helps. I guess I have no idea how things work anywhere else but my feeling is that your son is going to need more "help" than just getting his recess and gym time back. He obviously has issues that the school should be helping him with, not punishing for NOT being able to.

My heart goes out to you.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Side note...
This approach can really burn the teachers in other ways, too...

Like, when I was a kid (and a difficult child)... I was bullied a LOT.
And teachers used the whole "you have to stay in from recess" thing... for all sorts of minor infractions, like not completing your homework sheets in time...
So... difficult child-me did the most brilliant thing on the planet.
I made sure I was NEVER done, so I'd ALWAYS get to stay in from recess.

This worked until 6th grade... when the teacher caught on.
After that... I was shipped to the library or office to do "work" at recess, instead of being able to catch up on the school work.
(this teacher caught on to the reason as well as the behavior... I still made sure I got "detention" every recess, but she made me find other ways than not doing my work)

 

[Malika]

I agree that taking away the recess seems totally unfair. Basically, it sounds like your son is being punished for things he cannot help - a little like punishing a deaf boy for not hearing properly. And the fact that you don't have a diagnosis and it is going to take time for you to have a diagnosis obviously doesn't help. I wonder if there is any mileage in talking to the teacher again, difficult though that is and unreceptive though she is? Our situations are a little comparable in that my son is hyperactive, no formal diagnosis yet - high, high energy, overly brusque, impulsive, has friends but his social skills are probably not fantastic. The teacher is very old school, very strict, very focused on work and high standards. She had never heard of ADHD when we first came. J was being punished all the time (sent to sit in the corner) until I went to talk to her about it (also lending her a book to read). She is really not the most receptive person in the world and even now kind of dismisses the ADHD theory for my son, but her behaviour towards him has changed... She is less punitive, more understanding, and he is really showing positive results for it. So please don't give up - even hard nuts can be cracked...

 

[DammitJanet]

In my book he sounds adhd and what they are doing is tantamount to torturing him. I would be ticked. With you not being in the US, I cant give you much advise but if you were here I would be in the teacher's classroom daily whether she liked me or not. This taking away recess for a 5 year old is just plain stupid. Those are the kids who need it the most. Little boys were simply not meant to sit at desks for so many hours a day...point blank. They can learn at that age but they also need to get up and move or they are going to be miserable. Heck as adults we dont sit down for 8 hours a day without moving.

 

[ready2run]

well, i didn't talk to anyone today about it. they were in assembly this morning when i got there and difficult child was having a 'rough time' when i picked him up so i did not get a chance to go see the VP. i am going to tell him that the teacher pretty much blew off what i was saying and got offended. it is his job to deal with her, i'm not going to.

 

[InsaneCdn]

R2R... Back when *I* was in school (long time ago), they took a different approach. And I'm starting to think that some of these old ways were actually positive. Kids who couldn't sit still... had to do pushups, or jumping jacks, or laps in the gym, or go scrub the hall floor (hands and knees) for the janitor, or some other such physical task... until they were TIRED. I never had to, even though I was a bit wiggly... it was obvious that I was "clumsy", and it was glossed over. My bro... ran laps and did pushups, until he wasn't a scrawny kid anymore... the extra physical exercise was good for him.

 

[buddy]

I will never in my life understand how people don't see that if a negative consequence/punishment does not work the first, second, third time... then IT DOESN'T WORK period. These days all teachers have had the positive discipline classes..... holy heck, that is just plain laziness.

It is absolutely unacceptable to keep having him miss recess etc. If she wants to teach him about other's feelings, then have him make a picture for the kid he hurt and show him how to check in with the other kid, are you ok now? What can I do to make it better for you... (that is what they taught at the autism program ins tead of just saying I'm sorry. Q still will respond better if I say, you need to check in with X. I get flashbacks when I hear this crapola. so sorry you are suffering through it.
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