Update - Fugitive here now - with friends..!

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by Rhonda, Mar 14, 2009.

  1. Rhonda

    Rhonda slightly wilted Magnolia

    Hey all you! OMG. Started off as a blessing but has been taxing since. Not awful though.

    But Yesterday the stuff started hitting the fan. My daughter called and asked if she could come by for a little while that she was out walking her dog. She then told me that she was out walking it because the other 3 friends have told her it has to go! They got kicked out of a hotel because of it. They are all mad at her and she came to me to ask for help. But she did ask nicely if we could keep the dog for a little while. I would have been happy to, truth is I love animals and it was adorable. SO said no go! So that was that. She told us she had a place that she could take it to (like a shelter) so we told her to do that.

    At 1:00am this morning I got a phone call. She was asking me to come get her and she was on the side of the road where her friends left her. She is crying and telling me a boat load of stuff. They did not take her dog to a shelter they dropped it over someone's fence. I called her friends and they had opposing stories. My difficult child had called the police on them with a made of story because they left her. I told them all to work it out and for them to go get her. You do not leave a friend on the road in the middle of nowhere at 1am 45 degrees outside, no excuses. After 2.5 hours of talking to them I finally figured out where she was. They did try to find her but she hid from them.. omg! I had already called the police to find her. The police and I got to her at about the same time. I brought her home and put her to bed.

    OK -SO and I think we have these kids figured out about as much as you can. My difficult child is the worst of the 3 by far, she is truly corrupt. She did talk them all into coming here. They feel used by her to get a ride out to CA (they are mostly right about that). They all seem like "o.k." kids; they do not appear to be junkies, just down and out luck types. No parents around who care very much. Easily influences types. But, they all really do want to start a life out here and are pounding the pavement trying to get jobs. They are excited about this opportunity and trying hard. They have anger issues with each other over lies and manipulations all around. They asked me and SO to mediate for a little while today after last night (this am). I got to hear all of the horrible things that my difficult child has done. All of the horrible drugs, the staff from using others needles and refusing then to go to the hospital when she almost died from it. How she lies and manipulates and uses everyone. They were letting her have it. I finally stopped them all and said:

    I am not sure what you all are trying to achieve, but, I know most of the terrible things that my difficult child has done. I love her anyway. I have already forgiven her and I am proud she is my daughter. I am not proud of her actions and I did not raise her to do the things she is doing. But I do owe her an apology, (I turned to her) and told her that while she was growing up I tried so very hard to teach her how to fix things the "right" way the "honorable" way and when she did not want to do it that way, well, I made her anyway. I did not give her the opportunities to learn so many lessons on her own; instead I made her fix things my way. I did it out of love and thinking I was right but now I see that it is part of the reason she does not understand the consequences of her actions as an adult. I told them all how much a mother loves her children and how we think that by trying to "help" them reach their potential we feel like a good parent. I said that never one time did I feel like I was trying to control my daughter, I always felt like I was only trying to be a mother. Hind sight is 20/20 and now I see a lot of things. But I asked my daughter to please forgive me for the many things that were my part in how she is where she is now.

    I told her that this does not make her actions right and because I forgive her does not mean that I condone what she is doing. I do not. But I told her that I love her and if she continues to make the choices she is making without thought for consequences that I will also hold her hand and be proud while I walk to her jail cell with her. There was a lot more and the other 3 kids were crying and all saying they were calling their parents. I explained to them why we do what we do.

    I just don't understand her, my daughter has told these kids and everyone else that I put her in drug rehab not once but twice. When I called her on it as a lie. She went off! That is what prompted this speech I gave. I told her friends and her that yes she had been using drugs but just some pot and she had tried cocaine once at this point but that I put her in a Therapeutic school to get therapy and finish the 11th grade. Therapy to help her and us to have a better relationship. That school recommended her going to a wilderness program. I sent to that also and it was wonderful, it too was to help her with understanding why she makes the choices she does. She sees it as I sent her for drug rehab, but I explained that she would have had to be an addict for that to have been my reason and although other kids in the programs were addicts she was not. Her friends asked her why she tells everyone the things she does. She also tells them that I have thrown her out for heroin use - I had no idea! I have never thrown her out. They confronted her with her manipulation and lie and asked her if she thought it made her look any better to others by telling these types of things. She just got angry and started twisting words to say she never said that exactly....duh duh duh...

    I handled it all and we invited the kids over to eat hamburgers tomorrow. I told them all that I loved them even though I don't know them (I did not say I trusted them!). They have money that each of their families has sent to help them. So they will make it through a few more days anyway. My difficult child has already told me that if they leave and go back then she is staying and she will find somewhere but she will not stay here. She says she will go to the YMCA if she needs to but that she has made it these many months without my help and she will continue to. (she is stubborn)

    What to do what to do...hmmm.. I don't want her here so that is good. But I don't want her pride to keep her from feeling that she has a home. She is so determined to do it all on her own. That is one of the things that worries me the most about her. She is so antisocial!!! She would have slept on the side of that road rather than call me for help if things had not been going so well the last few days. I always want her to call me if she is in trouble but then dont. I guess what I really want is for her to be able to know when she really has gotten herself in a bad enough situation that she needs me and to be 100% certain I will definitely be there for her, she is not alone. And I don't know how to convey this to her. It is such a fine line of wanting her to feel welcome (wanted, loved, secure) but not so much that she can freeload and take advantage of me.

    I look forward to your thoughts on what is happening. She admitted to all of us today that she agrees she is an addict. But she thinks that because she does not do drugs all the time, that she does not need help with it. I said to her. "Well, no one can help if you don't think you need it, but if you decide you do, I will help if you will let me".

    Rhonda - still glad she came.. :faint:
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2009
  2. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    I'm not judging the docs diagnosis of difficult child, nor your opinion of her diagnosis......But I'm wondering why you view her stubborness to do things on her own as antisocial behavior? Granted, she's taken it to the extreme in areas, but it seems like this is just part of who she is, not necessarily part of her diagnosis.

    I was determined to do things on my own when I was young. I'm not so bad now, but life has mellowed me. And I'm the first person to admit I'm about as stubborn as they come. lol But both of those traits have gotten me thru some mighty hard times, so they're not necessarily bad. Being that way when I was young helped me to be able to form my own identity separate from my past and the family I grew up in.

    I think difficult child wants to change deep down. But I think I see alot of immaturity in what you described. Old habits die hard.

    I think you handled it very well tonight. difficult child needs to hear the truth and it's good you tempered it with how much you love and care for her...while also showing her that you are also capable of making mistakes. I'd give her time to mull it around and think about what you said.

    My daughter Nichole has only recently released that she pushes away people who care about her, most especially friends who try to get too close. She's been working hard on this lately. But even tonight....nearly fell back into the old habit......I watched her moment of struggle before she picked up the phone and called her friend back. (thankfully the kid has friends who understand her after so many years)

    Still praying hard that difficult child's intentions are genuine and that she is on the brink of turning around.

  3. Rhonda

    Rhonda slightly wilted Magnolia

    Ahhh Lisa,

    I hear you.. I am so stubborn myself.. I always admit she got that from me... I can do all on my own.. ugh! I wish that it was just that.

    Unfortunately.. along with all else I watched my daughter pull her cloak of self righteousness around her and not feel a thing today I watched her sociopathic behavior in action. I watched as she blamed her friends and accepted no accountability. I took some, her friends did too and she watched. She has quit hanging around with the bad crowd.. she is the bad crowd. That may seem mean but it is something I denied for the longest and have now come to terms with (well as much as i can so far). I do also agree with you that deep down she wants to change, etc.. but she does not take steps to do it. She is a sociopath, she only cares about her own desires and is willing to use anyone around her to achieve that. Does she always know she is doing it....hmmm .. most of the time yes. All of the time .. not sure. But, definitely she knows.. she told me last night how easy it was for her to control the other 3 when she talked them into coming out to CA. She talked about the feeling of power she had in watching them make decisions whiles she was talking and how her words affected them. Oh yes, she knows. I have always tried to teach her that what she has is a gift. She could be president...ugh.. she has that knack to get people to believe in her and follow her. Unfortunately she is not using it for positive purposes. She chooses her friends wisely.. The ones she has the best opportunity to get what she is trying to achieve from.

    She totally disregards social norms, her behavior is always impulsive, she is and has had for the longest a total indifference to the rights and feelings of others (not just late teens). The people around her are tools to be used to achieve what she wants. I may sound harsh... but I have come to accept her like she is. Is she always this way???? NO NO NO... occasionally she is not.. she is loving and kind and cries for the pain she causes, but it is rare.. most of the time she does not want to deal with those emotions (like 99.9% of the time) so she puts her walls up and ignores them. She lies and manipulates..and it is not drugs.. drugs are much more apparent. You can easily tell when it is drugs or alcohol. It hurts much worse when you can see it is just her. Her friends looked at her today with tears in their eyes telling her they wanted to help her and that is why they came to talk to me. She looked them dead in the eye and said "i dont need your help, I am done with you". All 3 looked at her like she grew a third horn (aside from the normal devil 2). I knew, deep down she was crying and hoping they would not really walk away. But she would have never said a word.. she would have pushed them out the door never to speak to them again if I had not ignored her and kept talking so that they got past the moment.

    It is hard.. because I love her dearly, but I dont like who she is at all. And I recognize that who she is may be what she stays like. No one wants to think that they will really not like that lovely child that they loved so much for years to come. If she turns a corner then I wont have that to deal with.. but I am not holding my breath. I am prepared to love her dearly and be fiercely angry at what she has become.

    So, yes you are right.. the way she behaves is just part of who she is. She is a lovely young girl who has some real problems that she refuses to address. Is it because she is immature.. well yes my understanding of her diagnosis is that is part of it. At 18 her social skills are about 12 or 13 and she proves that regularly. I have always been very stubborn and had to do it all own my own, but not to the detriment of my life and the loss of everything I have. Her father will pay for college for her, we agreed that when she finished high school we would get her a car to go to college.. these are incidental.. but the friends she hangs with would give anything to have these offerings from anywhere.. she throws it away due to fear of failure. She sticks with what makes her feel good.. manipulation and lies.. a nice little fortress that gives her complete control. And she can justify her little shelter by saying she is keeping the people she loves from hurting because of her... well bull malarkey....

    OK.. I am stopping.. got really going there.. may need to erase this tomorrow!! I dont usually get so worked up!!

    Wasn't you Daisy.. just started spouting!! ugh... Love you all... thanks daisy.. boy I must be more angry than I thought with her!
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2009
  4. Nomad

    Nomad Guest

    I've got a full plate today and will not be able to spend much time here.
    Was wondering...did a doctor diagnosis your daughter with- anti social personality disorder?
  5. goldenguru

    goldenguru New Member

    Hi Rhonda. I might suggest a book called "I hate you. Don't leave me" (by Kreisman I believe). Anyway, it is one of the most comprehensive looks at antisocial personalties (mostly borderlines). It sheds much light on the topic. I highly recommend it.

    I applaud the way you are dealing with this.
  6. standswithcourage

    standswithcourage New Member

    I too feel you handled a very hard situation with a mothers heart and told your truth to those children. I cannot tell you what to do as I dont think I even know what to do in my situation - I just know that you still love them no matter what and want the best for them. It seems you are giving her that but still keeping your boundaries for yourself. good job!
  7. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    You may feel the need to delete your post at a later time, but I found it to be profound and I thank you for both your insight into the diagnosis as well as your daughter. You obviously have learned to look at difficult child with eyes wide open, able to take the good with the bad, and love her the same either way. She is one lucky kid and doesn't even realize it. And you are one hellova warrior Mom.

    Nichole has antisocial behavior with the borderline. Although it's not as severe, and I'm hoping she can learn to turn it around into a positive. Watching her actually struggle with it last night gave me a perspective on it I never had before. It is really hard for her. She doesn't try to manipulate......but she pushes everyone away. And she is also as stubborn as her mother. lol She has to literally force herself to make moves and decisions others wouldn't give thought to.....like returning her friend's call last night. Usually she's glad she did it, it's just getting her over that hump to begin with.

    It's so painful to know what our kids potential is and watch it go to waste, or used to distroy themselves. That is the hardest thing for a parent of a difficult child. I'm praying hard for difficult child, that somehow a lightbulb clicks on.

  8. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Wow...you really hit a nerve for me. I am another mom with a kid with a personality disorder with both anti-social and borderline traits. With Cory I dont think his manipulations are as purposeful though. I dont think he plans out what he is going to do but it is just as hurtful.

    I am also borderline and I was more manipulative as a teen/young adult. I have mellowed with age. Only on rare occasions does that part of the borderline strike its ugly head.
  9. Rhonda

    Rhonda slightly wilted Magnolia

    Thanks ladies.. I just read what I wrote.. I was really on a roll.. Just sort of let it pour out. I dont know how much sense it made to everyone else but I wont erase it. It is all very true and right on the mark for my little difficult child.

    She is diagnosis by 3 different doctors. Severly ADD, Depression, Antisocial with tendencies toward borderline. Has had two years of therapy that she thinks was worthless. But they helped me!

    Janet - I am glad that yours does not mainipulate to the extent mine does. I never know when she is telling the truth or attempting to control my reactions. It is horrible and it took me a long time to see how bad she was. I am still shocked sometimes. I knew she did it but did not think it was the way it really is.

    Golden - Thanks a million for the book recommendation. I have "Understanding and treating Borderline Personality Disorder", "Driven to Distraction", "Codepent No More" (my bible), "Boundaries", "The explosive child". And these are just a few of them. I do truly believe that understanding the problem is the foundation to being able to deal with it when you are as analytical as I am. Some people just have a knack with it.. not me..I work hard.

    Smiles.. thanks again ladies.. we will see how the week goes.. the boy with the car is saying he is headed back to MS today! Changes daily.. what will the other 3 do without a car? I said "ride the bus" we have a very decent transit system.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2009
  10. Nomad

    Nomad Guest

    From what I have studied about this disorder and after watching a friend (for MANY years) whose daughter has this disorder, it is something that requires patience and expertise.

    Was so happy to read GG's post re: the I hate You : Don't Leave Me book.
    My friend got much help from this book.

    Another book she talks about a lot is called:
    Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking YOur Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder (Mason/Kreger).

    What she had to do was educate herself significantly about these things. Many therapists are not familiar with this disorder or are uncomfortable with it.

    Her adult daughter has good months and bad months. At this point she (mom) is not all that involved with her life. She provides contact numbers for her if she needs a resource. Mom gives her holiday presents. They often get together for the holidays. They talk now and again on the phone. They are friendly. It's not great...but not terrible. Mom hopes it will get better...but doesn't anguish over it. Her adult daughter continues to make poor choices. She attempts to manipulate mom less and less. Mom has clearly taken her own life back.

    What she did (mom) was educate herself and engage in a lot of self nurturing behaviors...spiritual and so forth. She did therapy for awhile and read nurturing materials. Went to church more often...called her friends more often...rested more. She found making difficult decisions with her child potentially very draining. Good decisions...confusing and draining. She needed her strength. There are moments that she is very tired. However, she has built up a little "force field" of sorts. Again...she has moved on. She is happy.
    Lasted edited by : Mar 15, 2009
  11. Rhonda

    Rhonda slightly wilted Magnolia

    Thanks Nomad - I will look at that book also - Lots of good advice there. Wish I could talk to your friend. It helps for someone to tell you how they dealt with things. It gives you hope.

    My difficult child just came over messed up! She and her friends knew they were coming over to eat with her and two of them showed up messed up. Not horribly, just enough that I could tell something was up. She had an alcoholic drink with her. I poured it down the drain and asked her politely to not bring any more back here. My SO confronted her about having been drinking and/or doing some type of drug and she denied it. I told her I was not going to ask because it would just set her up to tell me a lie, but I told her not to come back again if she had been drinking or doing any drugs. SO talked to the other 3 and told them the same.

    She looks terrible. That may bother me the most. Her hair has a really bad "black" hair dye on it and it hangs almost all the way down her back, unbrushed. She has worn the same tight blue jeans for 3 days and her makeup is thick and her eyes are just rimmed in black. She has 3 piercings and looking at her makes me sick. I know these things are so minor.. but they are the things that make me cry right now.

    My life has been on hold since she left in October, I have only been doing better these last few weeks since finding this board and finding my warrior within. I believe in myself and I feel very strong in the way I am dealing with this and her. But I can see that I am changing as a person. Hope it is for the better. :alien:

    Love you all - hugs to you - and lots of prayers....
  12. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    Hi Rhonda -

    I'm still trying to figure this out - from a non-involved perspective - but....have to point out what I see - despite the ugly looks I'm sure will come.

    In the end, once again - your daughter got what she wanted - sans the dog living in your home. How is this helping her? You?

    You said - you can't come here. She came there. She called you said you cant' STAY here - she's there. You gave her $60 for hotel money and someone else called their parents and had the room paid for. I know the money was a gift - but...still.

    Already - you describe your home/situation as taxing - so how does this help anyone? I understand that you felt you couldn't put her out in the street - but calls at 1:00 am asking YOU to solve her problems once again- and involving the police, and spending your time on the phone talking to the other kids on her behalf - does not sound like allowing her to reap the benefits of her own decisions.

    (probably not the popular observation here and I guess I could have said nothing and let it go - but if I'm to be considered a friend - I wanted to be honest in my observations)

    I get the Mom-heart thing - I do. I'm sorry.

    Again - not accusing - just trying to understand.
  13. Rhonda

    Rhonda slightly wilted Magnolia

    Goodness How I love this Forum!!! No "Ugly Looks" here"!

    Star!! You are a Superstar! No way would I "flame" over this situation!

    But no need to!

    Yes you are right...almost 100%. (but I may not have explained thoroughly)

    I had no influence over lattitude/longitude. I simply tried to stop the mileage and convince her to go face local problems instead of running. I never thought for a minute that I had that kind of influence but I tried.

    I must have seriously mis-represented the dog.. I do not have that lovely creature. She threw it over a fence (when I was under the impression it was going to a shelter). I have no idea where it is. But not with me! (although.. I secretly would love to have it).

    She is not here! OMG.. thank goodness. I did go meet the police to pick her up in the wee hours.. after trying to make her and her friends responsible... but yes.. i even feel like i did not handle that the best way! ugh! but at 3:00 am and knowing she had been on the side of the road in 48 degree weather for 3 hours I "caved" to her tears and met the police who were with her and brought her here! I promptly sent her away the next morning fed and with her "friends".

    I/we (SO and I) agreed to giving money instead of Credit cards to purchase a room. Freely.. if they wanted to sleep in car, fine with me. We did not want to have our cards charged for damages if they were incurred and we did not want them in our home. That was it.. no more rooms at our expense but we did contribute the money for two nights. ( i think i would have glady paid twice that to keep them away from my home). (OMG bad MOM!!.. just kidding)

    Grateful for the experienced parent! Your ladies are a rock!

    No idea what to do.. but Star.. based on just this response I would consider you a friend! It is so hard to do the right/correct thing as it hits you. I am awful at it but proud of the limits I have set.. I still say the wrong things but I am aware of it now!

    The fact is that this is my/her first week back in the vicinity in 6 months. I know she manipulates and lies.. but I am still her Mom. I won't allow her or her friends to take advantage of me. Well not the friends (I hope not her)..! And I am working all the time to keep her from the same. I will make mistakes.. and I will learn.. But I am trying to be prepared.

  14. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    Okay - (said in a uh huh kind of voice). lol

    sans the dog means - without the dog - lol - sorry. My mother asked me for a word last night regarding dancing with the stars dance movements and I said obligatory - she said WHATEVER - lol.

    Listen - I think you are doing remarkably well considering you haven't seen her, touched her, in 6 months. I'm just here to be the friend that stands with the other friends that says 'Um - Ron - listen to us if you can." Or to point out what my family now calls illusions of grandure lol.

    I guess I'll just add another 3 kids to the list and dinner will get colder and colder.....(eventually I shall pray for a warm meal) lol