When he wants to hug me...

[BusynMember]

Allan, thanks for your kindness. I think I can say, unequivocally, that it couldn't have learned anything about what I said or did during a rage or meltdown--and a hug would have helped me get grounded. Unfortunately, often rages and the words spoken during them, or even when a sick child is unstable, are taken as "he/she is bad and needs discipline." in my opinion discipline doesn't work or change anything. My parents were so cold to me that I was desperate to please them, yet I couldn't stave off the rages and "I hate yous.". I used to fantasize that I would never rage again, and I wanted to throw my arms around my mom and sob and ask for help, that I didn't want to be this way, why WAS I this way? The distance between us after rages and bad behavior on my part sent me into serious suicide mode. The only thing that held me back from suicide was my anxiety disorder...lol. I was more scared to die than to live, but I still came very close to suicide, even making the plan because I felt like I was "bad." Now that I'm stable, on medications that work so well for me and that I'll have to take forever, it shocks me that I no longer have any impulse to lash out or rage or say horrible things to anybody. That didn't happen until my 30's. By then, my parents had decide I was just "bad." My sibs agreed. I was disinherited when my mom passed away. I expected it, because she refused to see me or my children for over ten years, but the slight hurt--I couldn't have cared less about the money; don't even know if she had any. I don't think parents think often enough about how bad the kid feels about the behavior. I used to sit in my room after a rage/meltdown and sob and hope somebody came to tell me I wasn't awful, but it didn't happen. Later I'd be told "Don't do that again. How do you expect us to feel?" I'd say, "I don't like it either!" and start crying and then get told that I am doing it to be "manipulative" and "to get your way" and I was "spoiled" blah blah blah. My father has come around and we are close now. I think he "gets" it, although we don't talk about it. But I don't think people who don't HAVE these meltdowns understand how horrible it is for the child or adult who does. It is seen as a "bad choice in behavior." I don't agree. I doubt any child, unless very sick, would choose that particular method of "getting my way." It's not normal. A teenager in our neighborhood committed suicide last year. She was a nice girl and used to come around to talk to me...I get choked up just typing this. She said she had bipolar disorder.She was always grounded, and her mother used to be tell me that XXX made "bad choices." Her last bad choice was to hang herself. Be careful with your fragile children. Her parents didn't see it coming--they thought she was actually "more upbeat" the last two weeks of her life. She was sixteen years old. Take care.

 

[BusynMember]

Oh, yeah. As a last word, when my sixteen year old daughter took drugs and slammed her head against the wall and got arrested and told me how much she hated me, then sank to the floor sobbing, I would hug her right away and tell her I still loved her; no matter what I still loved her. I have no idea if it helped her, but this difficult child turned her life around two years later. She is the best daughter a mom could ask for right now. I never withheld those hugs, and I was NOT in the mood to give them to her after she told me how much she hated me and wished I hadn't adopted her and that nobody loved her, blah, blah, blah--it was the drugs talking. It did her no harm at all to be hugged when, in my opinion, I wanted to do it the least and she needed it the most. Since age nineteen, this child has never been in trouble, not one day. She is going to celebrate her 23rd birthday soon. I thought she'd be in jail or dead by now. I'm not saying the hugs did it, but I think the unconditional acceptance/love did help her. She talks about that a lot. And as far as respect goes--she is NEVER disrespectful to me now. EVER. Anyways, take what you want from it and toss out the rest :smile:

 

[timer lady]

MW Mom,

I hear how much pain you felt as a child. From the parents perspective, I expect yours were out & out terrified; add to that that mental illness wasn't highly recognized at that time. Not an excuse.

I will say again, after that high level of emotion it would be worse if I hugged my child when I was still agitated or angry. Those of us who do not suffer from BiPolar (BP) or other disorders are at the other end of that anger; it's exhausting to us as well.

I will make sure that my children are safe...I will love them always. And my children are aware enough to know that it's not a real hug if I hug them while I'm still agitated.

Mental illness will always be an enigma. Parents cannot do "it" right every time. There will be times that we just need to step back & ground ourselves before diving in once again. Please don't personalize how I parent or react to rages or meltdowns - it's what needs to happen here.

I'm sorry that you're parents didn't attempt to understand or find you help.

 

[Big Bad Kitty]

Heather, I agree with you.

I could not, NOT hug the kid if she needed a hug. Yes, I will tell her if I am still angry with her. While I am holding her to my shoulder, stoking her hair, I'll say "you know, you really hurt Mommy's feelings" or whatever. I don't know, I never even thought of it as an unconditional love thing. I just know that when she needs a hug, I give her a hug.

Terry, I also agree with Heather that you are at your breaking point. You feel as though you are the only one trying to make sense of the situation, while husband is going along like it's nothing. KNow what? Maybe he has got something there. He certainly seems to have less stress.

For example, here is how I might have handled the breakfast thing: If I had bacon and strawberries all sitting out, and difficult child decided she wanted cereal, I'd say "COOL! More bacon for me." The pill could have waited a minute or two. What I did was get the point across to her that she is not getting to me. Humor is a powerful thing.

husband needs to show you some respect, to be sure. There needs to be a game plan. Big higs and prayers.

 

[BusynMember]

Thanks, Linda. At the time, there wasn't much help to be found. You were just "bad" :smile: Unfortunately, as we hear about our own kids, there are still a lot of people who feel that way! You're doing a great job with your two though--they have to know how hard you are trying to help them, even if they don't thank you (at least right now).

 

[SearchingForRainbows]

Terry,

What a great thread!!! This has made me think so much... Thanks for posting this!!! I agree with Linda, TM, Janet, Heather and the others who believe that the child needs to understand the effects of their negative behaviors on us.

While I'm grateful for Midwest Mom for sharing her point of view, I think that we, as parents, have feelings too, and that these feelings shouldn't be ignored. in my humble opinion, when we put aside our feelings all of the time, it can cause lots of resentment and anger. Also, as others have already mentioned, our difficult children need to learn how live in society. Strangers, bosses, etc... aren't going to be as tolerant of their disorders as their parents are.

Midwest Mom, your responses make me so sad!!! It is horrible that your mother treated you the way she did!!! I appreciate your honest answers and the fact that you're able to share with us what is like to have been a difficult child at one time. It does help me understand my own.

However, I truly believe that it is ok for parents to let their difficult children know that their behavior has had a negative effect on us. It doesn't mean we don't love them. It just means we're human. WFEN

 

[Allan-Matlem]

Hi,
Timer Lady -Midwestmom ' Please don't personalize how I parent or react to rages or meltdowns - it's what needs to happen here.'

I am truely grateful to MidwestMOM for sharing her painful childhood experiences and her unconditional love for her child.
I have been around various parenting forums since 2001 and her writing on this thread has been one of the most profound and emotional pieces that I have read. Ross Greene writes ' Children do well if they can ' ( not if they want to ) Alfie Kohn writes about the inherent goodness of human nature. in my humble opinion kids want to do well , be successful, give their parents pleasure. It is so difficult to perceive a difficult child as such , when parents are often being abused by their difficult children. It is so difficult to see that your kid is also suffering and not really enjoying what is going on.
Midwestmom writes from a place where few have been , she has shared with us what goes on in a kid's head. We are dealing with perceptions and need to be responsive to the child.

This board is a place where learning takes place , our paradigms get challenged , in the hope that each person will take what speaks to her and have new tools to help reach parenting goals.
Midwestmom for me was speaking from the deepest and most intimate feelings in her heart , not a commentary or being judgmental on other parents

Allan

 

[wakeupcall]

This is a good thread. I'm guilty of not being able to hug and kiss and croon and smile and be immediately forgiving (my son is eleven and no longer a toddler). I am human and more days than not he says the most horrible, ugly, disrespectful words to me and I think he knows exactly what he's saying and doing and being manipulative. Let's see...I think I want to call that "control". I don't believe in the "Sticks and stones..." philosphy. Whether difficult child can help it or not, his treatment of me for years and years has had a profound effect on me. I know some of you are going to say this paragraph has a lot of "Me" in it, but all the years of trying so desperately to make a difference and have it shoved in my face day after day has almost pushed me over the edge. I DO love him...with all my heart, but I find myself going into self-preservation mode. Obviously, what we've done for eight years has made no difference whatsoever.........and we're talking nonstop medications, therapy, and behavior mods since he was four years old.

And yes, I do things for myself, but I always have to come back in a few hours to face again the mistreatment. And yes, now I'm on medications for depression.

There are days that are better than others with him, but never what I would call a good day, never.

 

[tiredmommy]

I also want to point out that there will be times that our children will have someone behave inappropriately toward them. I want my Duckie to understand that she doesn't need to rush to forgive in order to be "nice". I want her to know that her feelings of hurt or anger are valid too. I equate this to teaching her not to accept abusive behavior from anyone. Hopefully, the lesson will stick because too many of our kids end up either on the giving or receiving end of abuse as teens and adults.

 

[Allan-Matlem]

Hi,

" I agree with Linda, TM, Janet, Heather and the others who believe that the child needs to understand the effects of their negative behaviors on us. ' - implies that others and me don't see the need for the kid to understand the effects of their behaviors on us.

Being conditional does not promote empathy or reflection on the part of the child. Teaching deductively does not teach empathy and perspective taking. The discussion was the most effective way to teach a lesson , inductively or deductively.



Allan

 

[Allan-Matlem]

Hi,

I want my Duckie to understand that she doesn't need to rush to forgive in order to be "nice". - still does not teach her how to deal with situations, stand up for your rights in a respectable way and get the bully to actually like you.

Allan

 

[Just keep swimming]

Allan,

I see where you are coming from and it makes great sense...here on this forum. I love reading everything you post, you make me think. But, I have issue with what you post as well.

When Aly is at her "finest" and raging all over the place (like yesterday evening, ugh!) and then stops and wants immediate hugs, it is hard. I KNOW I NEED to hug her, help bring her in, bring her close, help HER feel secure. But, and I know I am the parent here, sometimes I am just as scared and/or angry as Aly just was and I can't shift gears quite as quickly.

I do pull her close to me on the couch and ask if I can have a minute to regroup. She is now old enough to understand what I am meaning when I say "re-group". I always tell her how much I love her, NO MATTER WHAT! But there are times, she snaps back so fast that I am still reeling in the moment, and my moments take a bit longer than her moments do.

My husband would love to read what you are posting here Allan, and not to make this a woman/man mom/dad issue, but maybe that is where there is a difference of opinion. Alot of us mom's take alot more abuse from our difficult children and yes, we can be the more emotional ones in the parenting team, but within that emotion is deep love for our children. NOT saying men don't love their children, I know husband loves his deeply. But I find, in my relationship with husband and kidlets, he has an easier time "snapping back" and offering up the hugs quicker than I.

We have all had this same discussion here more than one time before and there is always this similar reaction.

Thank you to MWmom for sharing your experience. Wow, brought tears to my eyes!

Hugs,
Vickie

 

[DammitJanet]

Allen...

Do you think there is ever a time for a parent being in complete control? For a parent to just say NO and having the final say?

Compromising on somethings is fine. I couldnt care less what my kids do with their hair, their clothing, or what they watch on tv. I didnt fight any of those battles and we had no problems there. Of course, I didnt have cable so tv was limited anyway.

I was content not to make the kid who hated onions eat onions. They could either pick them out or make a sandwich that night. No biggie. I wasnt a short order cook so they learned how to fix a sandwich quite early.

However, there are times that a parent does have to exert control and their word needs to be law and final. When a parent yells NO or STOP at a child running toward the street and cars are coming it is not the time to have a dialog about how they shouldnt run into the street or compromise about which bones they want to break!

The child should know to obey the parent and stop instantly for safety's sake alone.

I dont think there is any better way to teach a child how their actions effect other people than starting in the home. You seem to hate the word "discipline" but it means to teach. It is a parents responsibility to teach a child how to become productive in society. They must know that they cannot go out there and throw fits or break the laws because there are consequences to their actions. Other people are not going to accept a hug or an apology from them. They have to see that when they behave badly other people are effected and that their behavior brings negative consequences. That is the way the real world works!

By the way, I had just as hard a childhood as MWM and grew up bipolar. I know what it feels like to not know what was wrong with me and wonder why I acted the way I did. I was also abused in more ways than I can even go into here by mother. None of it means I get a free pass to act out in public. I had to learn to get along with society and not break the law and so do our kids. I didnt even get treatment until I was in my late 30s.

 

[CCRidr2]

Timer Lady I agree with you. I also take a time out to calm down because our difficult child is a manipulator also. He thinks that if he gives us hugs that it makes his behavior ok or that punishment will be ended. He will yell his "I hate you's" and "You're the worst mother I've ever had's". (I am the only mother he remembers, bio mother left when he was 18 months never to be heard from again) and then he thinks that he can hug and it will take all the hurt away but it doesn't. I know he doesn't mean it and it's the easiest thing for him to do to hurt me but I just keep telling him that I love him and I'M NOT GOING ANYWHERE! We all have to do the best we can while still staying "sane" ourselves.

 

[wakeupcall]

CCRidr2, AMEN! It's very difficult for us to stay sane. We have to work very hard at it.

 

[flutterbee]

Hi,

" I agree with Linda, TM, Janet, Heather and the others who believe that the child needs to understand the effects of their negative behaviors on us. '

Sorry you have missed the whole point I was making. Being conditional does not promote empathy or reflection on the part of the child. Teaching deductively does not teach empathy and perspective taking. The discussion was the most effective way to teach a lesson , inductively or deductively.

Please don't distort .

Allan

Maybe there is a language barrier issue going on, but I feel this response was rude. I also didn't read anywhere in her post where conditional love was expressed. Actually, I haven't read that anywhere on this thread. It was started by a mom looking for ideas on an appropriate way to address hugging her child when she was just wiped out and had nothing to offer at that moment. That is a very real and very human response. It does not speak of conditional love at all. She wasn't looking to teach a lesson. She was looking for help on what to do when she just had nothing more to give.

 

[LittleDudesMom]

I have read this post with great interest as today was a day where this topic applied. difficult child had a really rough morning at school. Bonehead kept the kids out until about 10:30 and winding down took awhile.

He was in the principal's office, after having received a referral from the reading specialist at the school. He was calm but upset while in his office.

I went up and brought him home at 1:30 because he just couldn't take the rest of the day. The first thing he did when we got home was to actually ask for a hug. There must have been at least four times this afternoon he asked for a hug.

His need was not based on forgiveness or everything being made right or manipulation. It was his desire to be assured that even though he screwed up, I still loved him.

Someone made the comment that they didn't want their child to think that giving them a hug made everything they did alright. I have the perspective that, in a child's mind, getting a hug from the parent you love makes them alright - not the behavior, which most of us give consequences for - but that they are alright.

A wonderful woman said to me that every child deserves to be loved by someone whose eyes light up when they walk in the room.

Sure there are times I don't want a hug because I am mad, or disappointed, or stressed, or fed up. But I always give it anyway. I'm not going to assume what is in my child's heart when they ask for one. I know my child well enough to know that he in no way thinks everything is made alright by the hug. I know him well enough to know that a hug goes a tremendously long way in reassuring him that the love is there and he is worthy of it.

I did not grow up with unconditional love and I do my best to share what I missed with my children. I had some tough stuff happen in my life with my parents that I do not want to repeat with my kids.

I tell my children regularly that I love them more today that I did yesterday and I will love them more tomorrow than I do today. No matter what they do, I will always love them. I may be disappointed, angry, disillsioned with them, bt I will never stop loving them. That to me is unconditional love.

But, these are my opinions based on my life and my children. I understand we are all dealing with different diagnosis's, different personalities, different parent/child relationships. My way and my words may not be yours. I respect that. I wanted to share my opinion on this topic.

Sharon

 

[flutterbee]

Sharon, thank you for a beautiful post.

I didn't grow up feeling or knowing I had unconditional love. I know now that my mother's love for me was and is unconditional, but I didn't know that as a child. I guess she just wasn't very good at showing it. It's very important for children to know that. She thought she did show it. But, I was a kid that needed more reassurance anyway (I was a bit of a difficult child myself) and choices my mother made completely contradicted that. We are very, very different, my mother and I, and we are much alike as well. From that aspect, I totally understand and appreciate what Alan is saying. But you just can't take one parenting technique and assume it's going to be effective for all. Some of the diagnosis's these kids have completely negate the ability of having any real empathy, for example.

Sharon, you stated that you think in a child's mind, a hug from the parent makes them alright. And I totally agree. I see that with my difficult child a lot. I also think they have a lot of genuine remorse and they want a hug, or offer a hug, as a way to say, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean it." difficult child tells me she hates me quite often. After she's calmed down, she wants to hug me, proving she doesn't hate me. Afterall, would you hug someone you really, truly hated?

I also think it's very important to recognize that we all have our limits which vary person to person and day by day as well. I feel that instead of bringing these discussions (that seem to create conflict and that seem to point fingers) to the threads started by one who is posting for help/advice/support, it would be much more appropriate to start a new thread and let the discussion take it's own life. While I'm sure that no finger pointing is actually going on, when one is feeling vulnerable it can be easy to perceive it in that manner.

 

[Big Bad Kitty]

Sharon, your post made me well up with tears.

I have been following this thread from the beginning, and I stick with my belief that if a child asks for a hug, it is OK to give them a hug. For whatever reason, I never went back in my mind to my childhood until just now.

Like Heather said, I know now that the love from my parents was unconditional, but growing up, I did not know it. My mom beat the ever-loving **** out of me growing up. My dad was never home.

As I said before, if I need to take a time out because I am angry, I take a time out. IF difficult child needs a hug, she gets a hug. If I don't feel like giving her one right away, I tell her that I love her, that I am not exactly happy with her right now, but that I DO love her. And she does get that hug. Again, I agree with Heather, this may be her way of apologizing. In my difficult child's young mind, it may even be a way of making sure she is still OK, or not a monster. You know, after a meltdown that shw has had no control over.

And I make sure I tell her I love her many MANY times a day.

 

[sameold sameold]

This is a hard one. I have always had to hide my true feelings from difficult child for the most part. He feeds off my emotions all the time. Whenever he wanted a hug, it was his way of apologizing. And I had to tell myself that repeatedly. Good luck