3yo daughter with possible ODD

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by kae, Jan 18, 2015.

  1. kae

    kae New Member

    My daughter was 3 in December we have been having "behavioural issues" since just before my daughter was born in October and got worse after my husband returned to work FIFO 2weeks on 1off we had a few issues with biting and flying into rage quickly we did a 3yo assessment in December and it came back pretty normal, we had a break from daycare (where the problems seam to be worse) and have been back for 2 weeks now mad she has been "like a new child" however I went to pick her up on Thursday and the daycare mum hands me a book open to ODD I had never heard of it before so I did some research and yes she does have some traits but I don't think they are quite as bad as they should be if she was ODD ,she never had terrible twos so I'm wondering if she is just having terrible threes so what I would like to know is what was your3yo doing at this age that may have defined them as ODD??
  2. Wiped Out

    Wiped Out Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Welcome Kae! I'm glad you found our little corner of the world. You have found a soft place to land and are definitely not alone. Many of us here don't believe ODD stands alone; there is usually something else going on (possibly some sort of mental health issue).

    My son was a handful from the time he was born. By age three we knew something was going on and they diagnosed him with ADHD (which was partially correct). At daycare and at home he would be manic-running around, unable to listen, pulling hair, biting, hitting, breaking things, sleeping very little, raging, very defiant, etc...

    However, for your daughter it seems to surround the addition of your daughter. I believe at this age it is hard to know what is going on but it is good you are on top of things. Who did the three year old assessment? Was it the pediatrician? Has she ever seen a therapist? One thing we often recommend is seeing a neuro-psychologist but I honestly don't know if three is too young (maybe someone else would know).

    Again please know you are not alone; I didn't find this place til my son was 7 years old but I knew long before that there was something going on. Stick around, you will fine much support here.
  3. kae

    kae New Member

    Thankyou for the reply she had the assessment done by me and my husband filling out several questions and answers of different situations and scenarios and things that we had to get her to do for us to see if she could follows instructions it was give to us from a community nurse at the community health center at her 3yo check up but it was only because I requested it because the daycare mum had "run out of ideas" on how to "deal" with her I honestly don't think she should be put under the banner ODD but I just wanted to hear what other kids her age are doing to be classified as ODD
  4. HMBgal

    HMBgal Active Member

    Same issue with my grandson. Always a challenge, but really came to a head in pre-school. Diagnosed ADHD, teachers always like to throw the "have you seen this description of ODD? Gosh, sounds just like your son/daughter/grandson", etc. Yeah, we knew, we know, and we also know that it describes a set of behaviors, but not what's causing them.

    To answer your "what are other kids are age doing to be classified as ODD." With us, it started with emails coming from parents of playgroups saying that grandson was hurting other children, won't listen, won't play, just run arounds and creates chaos. This was at 2-3 years of age. It was pushing kids off swings at playgrounds, refusing to listen to pre-school providers about anything and screaming at them. Everything is "NO!" We couldn't take our eyes off of him for a second because he would knock his toddling younger sister down, hit, bite, etc. When he wasn't doing all that, he was bright and sweet. No focus at all on a game, toys, or activity.

    When he hit kindergarten, all hell broke loose. He couldn't even stay at school for more that 90 minutes, he had to have an adult watch him at recess (usually me or my husband). He was tearing up papers, throwing toys at kids, making a shambles of story time, circle time, any group time at all.

    After much agonizing, we decided to give Concerta a try. The school psychiatric said (after testing for need for special services at school) that he didn't come off classically ADHD, and that there was something else, but he could't tell what it was. Meanwhile, the kid was reading, performing at a high academic level in kindergarten, and that is still true in third grade. The concerta really did help him calm down enough to be able to talk to him and try to teach him some tools to control his rages.

    He has really matured a lot, he knows he can't hit and kick other kids, although if he flies into a rage, he will throw chairs, scream and yell, and get kind of scary. It's cost him a lot socially. But, he won't hurt his siblings, and we can just about leave him at a birthday party (hardly ever gets invited, though) with the right people who know and understand him.

    This was just our experience of how it started, and how it is now. Your child may take a completely different path. Each child is so unique. In the meantime, The Explosive Child books are good, and this site is wonderful.
  5. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Where do you live, kae? All countries are different in how they treat childhood disorders and even how they diagnose them. Some will not medicate kids.
    Most of us are from the U.S. We have a few from other places...if you state your country maybe somebody from that neck of the woods can help you more. You posted in the middle of the night for us so I'm guessing...Europe? Anyone help? Suzir? LucyJ?
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015
  6. kae

    kae New Member

    Im in Australia I think I was writing all this at about 10/11pm over here it's taking control of my life at the moment I think I have 8 pages open on my internet of ODD the reason I ask what other children are like is because I believe she is abit disobedient but I can always take control over her and so can all the adults in her life I don't believe she is out of control if I send her to her room she doesn't go in their and destroy the palace she will cry and sometimes scream but it's not for about 2 min If that than she comes out and says sorry and than goes off playing like normal I need some courage to go into the daycare and tell her nothing is wrong she may be just finding her place again after daughter was born. I don't want to be a parent that says their is nothing wrong with me sweet child if their is but I honestly don't believe their is
  7. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I'm wondering about autistic spectrum. We have a member from Australia who used to come here a lot and she has three Aspie kids, but she doesn't come very often anymore. I will see if I can find her and ask her to come. I hope she does because she really knows how to get help and what signs to look for. Margaurete? You around?
  8. kae

    kae New Member

    Part of her assessment was testing for that and she came back good the cut off was a score of 59 and she got 45 so she was good
  9. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Well, that sort of testing is for whether she is delayed or not in school skills in a testing situation. It isn't the kind of testing that will find a neurological difference. That took ten hours of private testing for MY son. Not sure what Marguarite had to do to get the diagnosis. I don't think it was only school.

    In the U.S., ODD is usually just a term given out to kids who don't fit in. It really has no relevance. It does not address the cause of the defiance. Most psychiatrists and neuropsychs (the ones with the actual education to diagnose...not therapists and social workers either). On this forum, most of us feel that ODD does not stand alone. Psychiatrists rarely diagnose it. Teachers do, but teachers are educators, not psychologists and have absolutely no business trying to diagnose our children. None. When teachers used to do this to me I'd ask politely when they got their psychology degree, then I'd tell then nicely that we are working on a diagnosis and treatment with medical professionals and we would appreciate they not try to take their places.

    And when I heard "Well, with my experience with kids..."

    I'd say, "With all your experience you can probably figure out which child is wired differently, but you don't know the reasons or the remedy. Please...leave it to us. We are on top of it."
  10. kae

    kae New Member

    I understand what you are saying but I don't want to waste resources if their isn't a problem heanse I'm trying to see what the children are doing at 3yrs old to be defined as ODD the od bite due to frustration at daycare (has not done this again for about a month now), the 2 min meltdown and the typical angry child maybe due to being over tired or not getting what she wants I'm starting to believe she doesn't fit into this category at all I think I will leave things for a another month or so as she has only been displaying the behaviors for 3to4 months on and off and than I will look into a child physiologist, this is why in my original post I only asked for behaviors of other 3yo children
  11. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    She is three years old. That is way WAY to young for an ODD diagnosis. It's usually given to hard-to-manage 12-15 year olds... and even then, it doesn't really tell you anything. ODD works as a placeholder diagnosis - acknowledges something is not normal, while more research is done as to what might really be going on. Usually, ODD is the result of something else.
  12. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    Hi kae. I don't check in as much any more because life has become more complicated in general, even though the difficult children have all reached adulthood.

    difficult child 3 was diagnosed the youngest. He was about 3 years old when the autism diagnosis was finally given, but in his case he had obvious language delay so that made diagnosis easier. Community Health (through the public system) was able to assess language issues, but frankly it was murder to have to deal with the level of idiocy I felt I had to cope with. They did, to their credit, finally accept I wasn't just a bad mother. I really hate how so often (in the public system) you get treated as if the only problem is poor parenting.

    difficult child 3 was given a hearing test too, by a mob linked to DOCS. I was in a panic when I heard DOCS had been called on suspicion of emotional neglect, but they quickly ruled that out, and language delay in. He was about two and a half at this stage, I remember he was fully two and a half when the next stage got us into Community Health speech path assessment.

    If I had my time over, I'd have gone private. Better results, faster turnaround, less pain for me (other than the wallet). Talk to the GP to begin with, they might be able to organise a Mental Care Plan which could include assessment/treatment for six sessions under Medicare. We didn't have thta option, but we sure used it when the kids were older.

    With ODD (yes, I'm getting to it!) I really, really HATE that label, because I feel the label itself is so misleading. it implies that the child is deliberately choosing to be difficult, when I do not believe that is the case. Instead, what you get is a child who seems to learn by copying the behaviours of those around him/her. But often the behaviours of those the child wants to emulate, are disciplinary behaviours. These are the kids whose social skills are not quite up to scratch, so this is where you see the problems emerging.

    For example, a teacher who disciplines with "Because I said so, that's why!" will strike serious trouble with a kid who is extremely imitative. These kids look at what succeeds for others then tryto duplicate it. They see the teacher as successful, because the teacher is managing to control an entire class of students to get a certain amount of cooperation. A lot of this is about control, because often these kids feel their world is very much NOT under their control and they find the uncertainty to be scary or confronting. So they try to control it.

    I've often recommended parents of kids getting this sort of label (or exhibiting these sort of problem behaviours) read "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. It should be in your local library. Basically, the message is that we need to give these kids a sense of SELF-control. Any kid capable of even trying to control everyone else to this extent is capable of learning self-control. And you become their facilitator and not their controller. You help them, you teach them, they learn and they imitate your supportive behaviour and not any controlling behaviour.

    These kids will also give back what they get, in terms of behaviour from other people. So if you're the kind of parent who smacks, for example, that is teaching such a child that aggression and force are good. If you tell such a child to not hit or bite, but they observe others (kids or adults) using force and succeeding, then your word become more meaningless. It's observations and actions that speak louder.

    The other thing that you would notice if you try this - anyone not on board with this method will suddenly find themselves the target of all the child's hostility. For example, difficult child 3 had a teacher at school of the "Because I said so" kind. She and difficult child 3 clashed all the time. She also was very negative in her instructions. It was "Don't do that" rather than "Do this instead."

    With a child like this, the more he/she gets anxious (and anxiety, uncertainty and panic can often go hand in hand with this feeling of lost control) the more they try to clamp down on control. And the more you try to override and control the child, or direct in the direction you want them to go, the more stubbornly they will refuse. And the more they refuse, the harder you try to clamp down. But you will lose that battle because the child like this is always more single-minded, more focussed and more desperate than you are. Instead, you let go and let the child, to a certain extent.

    It's not as anarchic as that, and it seems counter-intuitive, but it really does work. Basically, don't fight over every little thing but pick three things you want to work on, and leave everything else in te too hard basket for now. And if you're working on discipline and see the child about to melt down, ease back. Try to help the child avoid a meltdown. Remove the child from a problem situation perhaps, or stop pushing to get the child to sit at the table to finish a meal if they don't want to. Whatever it is. Natural consequences can become your disciplinarian - if she runs outside without putting her sandals on, she will get bindis in her feet and will learn that sandals prevent this. You didn't put the bindis there, it just happened that way because she ran on the lawn barefoot. Or hot paving, or rough gravel. She will need to learn a lot more for herself, and not because you are teaching her.

    Another tip - ensure really good communication between yourself and whoever has the child away from you (such as day care). We had a note book that would travel back and forth in the child's bag. You write anything you think relevant ("she slept badly last night, might be difficult today") and the caregiver in turn writes anything they notice ("she bit Rachel today but when Rachel cried she cried too and gave Rachel a hug.")

    As you look at it, you see patterns more clearly and between you and the caregiver, you begin to see a way through.

    If there are problems, early detection means you can get access to Early Intervention programs. These are through Dept of Ed or Community Health, or similar. Definitely useful because it makes transition to "big school" a lot easier, especially if you can get funding for a support staff person (we had one for difficult child 3 from the age of 3). The funding is Federal but it is state-applied.

  13. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    One more thing.

    With autism, girls are often very different. Also difficult to diagnose because they seem to be more complex and more capable in some areas.

    easy child 2/difficult child 2 was a challenge and a delight. At 2 years old, we saw the first signs of what could be called ODD. It was her emulating adult disciplinary behaviour. We had a rule - drink a cup of water for every second drink. Well, she wanted juice for every drink. A classic (and sadly common) event was this two year old standing there, hands on hips when I handed her a cup of water and saying loudly and firmly, "I told you, I said I wanted juice! Why don't you listen?"
    Yes, she was precocious. Very adept with language. She's 29 now and I still have to slap her down when she tries to tell me how it should be. Interestingly, her baby is showing some interesting traits and possibly early warning signs of language delay. Her focus is now all on helping her baby and finding other ways to help him develop the skills he needs.

  14. kae

    kae New Member

    Thanks for your help