A Possible Situation Developing...

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by Hound dog, Feb 12, 2012.

  1. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Bro moved in with Mom when he lost his job and his relationship with his girlfriend broke up. I'm guessing bro's youngest daughter, Stormy (a major difficult child), played a big role in that break up......although bro would never admit it, not even to himself. Bro gained custody (finally) of Stormy at the age of about 11 or 12, she is now 14 going on 15. She is diagnosed ADHD, but while she *might* have it, Borderline is clearly evident (it all but screams at you) and ODD is in the mix too......how she has skipped being diagnosed with either is anyone's guess except she has manipulation down to a fine art. Bro's ex is an extremely negligent and abusive parent. I have no doubt that up until the point where bro finally got custody of Stormy the child lived a nightmare. The stories bro's two older kids tell are enough to give a person nightmares, and they lived alone with their mom only for a few years before being old enough to leave home, which they did immediately. Bro is a trucker and most of the abuse took place when he was on the road. It took him literally years to "get" that it was going on, with his kids telling him, family telling him, friends telling him, and neighbors telling him. Even when he did finally get it, he was afraid to do anything about it for years because his now ex threatened he'd never see the kids again. (empty threat, her parents told bro they'd help him fight for custody) When he did finally leave, he left the kids behind. Hard to care for 3 kids when your life is on the road. But he never failed in his child support nor in keeping up with visitation, actually he went above and beyond in visitation and child support. Sad part is not one of these kids are even biologically his....he refuses to believe that either. But he does his best to be a good dad.

    Mom is no stranger to difficult children. She IS one. And she raised 4 of her own. Mom is a no nonsense parent. Rules are rules and they will be followed. Consequences are not pleasant to say the least, and she can get mighty creative when necessary. Stormy up until the age of 11/12 lived a life of no rules, as long as she stayed out of her mom and her mom's live in girlfriends way, everything was fine for the most part.....except when either woman was in a bad mood ect, or the sexual abuse (which bro still refuses to believe or have Stormy treated for) The child didn't even have a clue how to conduct herself with other people, let alone in a normal home setting. It has been a major battle of wills, but mom finally has her conforming to house rules, although Stormy hates her for it. Bro also isn't too pleased with Mom's strict house rules and having to live under them again. And although he's a good dad, he refuses to believe any bad behavior on Stormy's part unless it is totally in his face directed at him. And yes, this has created some issues, which for the most part mom has handled rather creatively.

    Not long after moving in bro did manage to get a job. And while boss promised he'd be home every night, he works 12-16 hrs per day 6 days per wk. Which leaves mom with his major difficult child 24/7 to deal with, get to school ect.

    Now Mom is 75. She's had cataract surgery. Multiple surgeries for glaucoma. She has stints in her heart. She's had both hips replaced. But she is far from helpless and does very well. She IS a difficult child herself. Paranoid schizophrenic. But episodes are usually only triggered during times of high stress and usually are only behaviors such as she thinks people sneak into her house and take things. Extremely high stress can make her dangerous, but I've only known that to happen a few times over her lifetime. Mostly she's a religious fanatic to the extreme who think people have nothing better to do than steal her towels. lol Basically harmless.

    Seems an incident happened several weeks back that is causing major issues.

    Mom took Stormy with her to drive the 2 blocks (literally around the corner) to my aunts house to pick up the newspaper. She reads my aunts paper so she doesn't have to pay for her own. As Mom was driving suddenly out of the blue Stormy starts screaming (and this kid can scream) that mom hit the ditch and lunges to grab the steering wheel. Now mom is suddenly trying to fight off a 14 yr old who is bigger than her who is screaming like a lunatic and keep control of the car........while telling the kid she did NOT hit the ditch (trust me she'd have known it if she had, I know that road) and to knock it off and get on her own side of the car. Stormy does not shut up about it. Mom gets to aunts house and sends stormy up for the paper because the kid has her shaking so bad she needs to collect herself for the drive home. Soon as Stormy sees my aunt she starts yelling how grandma hit the ditch and almost killed them yadda yadda full drama mode. Now aunt is no stranger to difficult children either and knows Stormy from her always being with mom and believed mom when mom told her the kid was nuts she did no such thing.

    So they start back home. Mind you this is 2 blocks in a quiet suburb mom has lived in for 20 plus yrs. On the way home again Stormy suddenly starts screaming that mom hit a car, lunges for the wheel (nearly sending them off the road), Mom finds herself fighting the kid off, there is NO car where Stormy claims mom supposedly hit it so Mom can't figure out what the hell the kid is talking about........Stormy is over the top drama and mom couldn't get into her drive fast enough. Out of the car the child is so into the drama and so LOUD that neighbors have come out to see what the issue is. So Mom points to where this car was she was supposed to have side swiped and asks them if there was a car parked there (because the spot is empty), since this is a neighbors car......neighbors tell her no it's been gone since that morning. Still the kid won't shut up. Bro comes out of the house to see what all the fuss is about. Stormy is all over him telling him first grandma ran them into the ditch on the way to aunts house then it the car on the way back and that she won't believe her! Mom told him the kid was nuts, she did no such thing. Neighbors did point out to him there had been no car parked where Stormy claimed Mom hit one. Bro points to mom's rear view mirror that is hanging loose. Mom tells him that means nothing it's been broken for months.....older bro had put it back on but it comes off once in a while as he keeps forgetting to finish it.

    To make it shorter. Bro believes Stormy over mom, regardless of what the neighbors tell him. (this is a pattern by the way) It just so happens older bro picks that time to stop by. Stormy is all over him telling him this wild tale. He laughs at her. Varifies the rear view mirror was already broken. Points out to younger bro all the neighbors are calling his kid a liar about this car mom hit. Even pointed out to him HAD mom hit a car she'd have paint and scratches on HER car, which there wasn't a mark. Younger bro still refuses to believe mom.

    Now, this remains a sore spot. I get my intolerance for lying from my mother. Bro is ticked off that mom is calling his daughter a liar even though evidence says she's lying.....so every time mom asks either one of them to do something, he makes snide remarks that undermine her authority (what little she'd managed to establish with the child) with Stormy. One day Mom let him have it over that nonsense. So he tells her he is not allowing Stormy to ride in her car anymore unless she gets a note from her doctor stating that it is safe for her to drive. He's probably lucky he's alive after such a comment. lol Since the day he's moved in Mom has been the primary caregiver of this difficult child. Not only normal daily care, but she has had to drive her 20 miles one way every day to care and groom her horses, drive her back to school for detention and tutoring and taking her to psychiatrist and therapist appointments and a zillion other things. Her entire days for months have been revolving around care of HIS kid, for FREE.

    Well, that was the straw. Mom can't tolerate a liar. But the fact that bro stood behind his lying kid and demanded a doctor note.....did it. For months Stormy has been doing little things and some big things to drive Mom nuts and just aggravate her because she doesn't like mom's strict rules........and she tells her dad that it's all in mom's head and he believes her because well, that's the way he is. But the car junk was just it. She told him she wanted Stormy out of her house immediately, period. She was done with the kid. He told her where Stormy goes, he goes.........and her reply was D@mn right! lol So he told her he was working on it. (darn slowly in my opinion, but he probably is to some degree) Mom told him that wasn't good enough. That never again would the child be there weekends, she didn't care where she went but it wouldn't be Mom's house. She wouldn't be there at any time as long as bro wasn't home. Well, now see, Mom has been his sitter all this time.......and Stormy can't be trusted alone for many many reasons.......so bro blew up at mom that she darn well would be allowed in the house when he wasn't there or else! And well, my mom just doesn't take that sort of crud well. So she told him to just try it. He'd find his kid standing on the porch in the freezing cold at midnight waiting for him to get inside. And if she tried to get inside, mom would call the cops on her fanny.

    Bro backed down, knowing our mother does not make empty threats and made arrangements that Stormy stay with older bro and his wife when he's not at home. (I bet they're just thrilled lol )

    I admit I thought this was a bit over the top, not letting the kid into the house and all.........but I reserved judgement because I know mom has not told me all that the child has pulled on her, and I know she loves this kid and has done her best by her long before bro ever got custody so I figured if she'd reached that point it was for good reason. And yesterday when I talked to her.....she did finally explain why. After the car drama, mom is afraid to have the kid in the house alone with her in fear of what she'll either pull and blame on mom.....or what she'll make up about something mom supposedly did. And in that context, her demand is reasonable.

    Turns out that mom found out bro has been talking to sibs about how mom is at best senile, at worse just plain insane, and not capable of living alone anymore. This has mom highly stressed out and near panic. I know this is true because last time when he and Stormy brought her to visit he was talking that way and I shot him down. A while back he called me and started that nonsense and I shot him down. Due to my childhood with mom, I've developed a keen sense of when she's in one of her episodes, and I can pick up on it even over the phone. My radar has not gone off. I've spoken with her quite a bit over the past months.....and she sounds stressed but perfectly normal, other than the whole my kid and his daughter are trying to convince people I'm senile or nuts, which given that he is doing that, is reasonable. She is so panicked by it she went to her lawyer. He told her to throw bro and his brat out. lol So mom has finally agreed to give him a move out date that I've been telling her to do for months.

    Why this is a potential situation is that this bro is usually the one who looks after mom and helps her out. He's not normally like this when it comes to mom. It's because he refuses to believe the difficult child behavior of his kid. But sibs don't know this..........and odds are they're believing him, because after all he IS living with her, so who better to judge? Know what I mean?? Mom is terrified he's trying to get the other kids to help him get her declared incompetent and put into a nursing home, or worse committed. I don't know that is his goal......but if he's talking to the sibs the way he was talking to me it certainly sounds like it. And he did just a couple of years ago get our biodad declared incompetent and got him admitted to a nursing home. (which in my opinion is out of character for him too, and yeah Stormy was living with him then it wasn't too long after he got custody)

    Would sibs listen to me if I talked to them? Probably not. Due to the whole grandma basically raising me thing we've never been very close......and me moving here after marrying husband did nothing to help that. I honestly don't care for talking to them much because they still treat me like they did as a kid......like I'm stupid and incapable of doing anything.

    Yes, Mom is paranoid schizo. I find it ironic I've been telling them this since my early 20's and they refused to believe it. Only in the last decade has it sunk in or rather they've let themselves accept it. Mom refuses medications. But honestly doesn't do bad without them unless under stress. And even then it's just believing people are taking great pains to come in and steal her towels or some other silly thing. She has been dangerous on rare occasion but that only appears under extreme stress. (almost always directed at me specifically and once a cop) The vast majority of the time if you didn't live with her you'd never know she had the disorder. She's pretty functional.

    Mom is so panicked over this she plans to put the house up for sale in the spring and move out of state. Where, she's not sure. Sis has a room built especially for her in her new home in texas but mom hates texas. Mom likes Indianapolis......but other sis's family treat her as bad if not worse than Stormy. We've begged her to come here, so maybe this is where she'll wind up. But she also sobbed last time she visited and begged us to please come and see her this spring/summer. Now I understand what that was about. And yes, we've all made plans for a trip there as a family unit in June.......timed perfectly for my 30 yr hs reunion. Looks like we may be bringing her back with us.

    So, if sibs start this process............. I will do what I can to stop it. Mom is perfectly capable of living alone independently with minimal supervision. (same as anyone for her age) I will not let them railroad her into a nursing home at this stage. There is no reason for it.

    I don't know what bro's motivation for this is. Mom has offered him the house to rent so she could get out from under it and move away and he turned her down. So I'm thinking it's mostly because he is in denial about his daughter and her manipulative behavior ect. Which is a horrible shame because Stormy needs some serious therapy for the neglect / abuse she endured at the hands of her mother and is not getting it due to her father's denial of her need for it. She can be an awfully sweet kid who deep down just craves love and affection and acceptance.......but she can also be dangerous as hades with her so far passive aggression and manipulation. I saw that when she visited and she was only here 2 days! Yes, it was that bad. Everyone picks up on it except her dad. Everyone.

    So, at the moment, I'm the only one in my mom's corner and she is holding on to me for dear life. I don't know what I can do to stop my sibs should they start such a process, but I'll do whatever I can, even if it means moving her in here temporarily.

    Life sure is screwy.

    I hope bro moves out soon and that is the end of it. Then come spring Mom moves over here and that is that. :sigh:

    Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. Any knowledge of how to stop such a process would be helpful too, just in case. Dunno if I could since it would be 4 against one.
  2. TeDo

    TeDo Guest

    Lisa, I am so sorry. Just out of curiosity, what happened to biodad's house and money? Did bro get it? Could bro be doing this to get the house without having to pay rent? I think it is VERY wise for mom to get away from there but sell the house first. That way, there is no way bro or Stormy can benefit. She will have sold the house and have her money and she can move with you before June if things work out that way. The sooner the better the way it sounds. I would encourage her to get it listed asap and get the h*** out of there. I am proud of her for sticking up to them. Would it do any good for you to talk to sibs about how manipulative Stormy is? Maybe plant some doubt against bro's misplaced loyalty. I don't know. Just a thought. Keep us posted. This sort of thing irritates me!!!
  3. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Tedo our biodad never owned anything in his life except old clunkers and the man had no money to his name, not even retirement other than social security. I suspected at the time there was possible conflict between the girlfriend, biodad, and Stormy.....along the lines of Stormy against those two when bro wasn't around. Biodad was living with them because he could no longer work. After what I see going on with mom I'm guessing bro was doing what he's doing now and siding with Stormy.......girlfriend was fed up and told him it was his biodad or Stormy, bro put biodad in a nursing home. About little more than a year later girlfriend told bro she'd had enough and to get out.

    Bro probably doesn't want the house. It's worth a considerable amount, but even maneuvering Mom out of it via nursing home would do him little good in acquiring it, her will was written years ago. I know what it states as I'm executor, even though i don't want to be. I'm the only one she trusts completely. Probably because I've told her for years that I want nothing of hers, to give it to the other kids or go out and spend and enjoy it. lol

    I think it's more of a denial deal. Stormy must be telling him the truth because how can she lie to the Daddy who has done everything to save her? So, if she's not lying mom must either be senile or insane. Know what I mean?? Bro is an ex difficult child himself. I'm seeing the same stubbornness concerning Stormy that he had when we were trying to convince him his ex was severely abusing his children. In his eyes right now it's him and Stormy against the world. ugh

    Sad part of this is, bro is usually a really great guy with all the right traits. But this is one of his biggest faults, he is loyal to an absurd degree. His kids literally lived through hell due to his loyalty to ex and the blind love thing. His eldest daughter only turned out fairly easy child simply because she hates her mother so profoundly that she made up her mind to never be anything remotely close to her. His son is simply a mess on his 3rd stint in prison. Stormy is well on her way to becoming a major disaster herself if he doesn't get his head out of his fanny. ugh
  4. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    in my opinion it is time to get your mom a video surveillance system installed in her home when bro and Stormy are not around to know, then to get PROOF that Stormy is this disturbed. Proof on video will go a LONG way to proving to others that your mom isn't nuts. Your mom's dr and atty both need to be able to state that she is NOT a danger to herself or others and that she IS able to care for herself. Usually the court will not go against the dr and atty if there is even on family member on the side of the older person. That would be you.

    You need to ask the atty what needs to be done to PROVE that your mom is able to handle her own affairs. You also need some proof of how disturbed Stormy is. in my opinion Stormy was about to have someone shove proof of her problems in Daddy's face and she did this to create a smoke screen. Bro and Stormy very well may try to prove your mom is incompetent as that move-out dates comes close or if she follows through on it. So SHE needs to start collecting ammunition to prove that Bro is neglecting Stormy's needs and is not getting the therapy she needs and that Stormy is out of control. The BEST way to fight this is to prove that BRO is incompetent as a parent (and refusing to get therapy for a severely abused/neglected child IS neglect and incompetent parenting period end of discussion at least in my book) and that Stormy is so disturbed that she needs major help and is capable of manipulating enough to set this whole mess up.

    Also, what is the chance that STORMY is hallucinating? Not so much lying as that she actually saw a car there or thought that Gma ran into a ditch? I am NOT saying she isn't manipulative or that she couldn't have done this all as manipulation, but I am wondering if there is any schizophrenia/hallucinating going on in HER mind?

    I also would start to contact your mom's neighbors and ask them to keep an eye out and if they would be willing to testify that your mom is fine to live alone, is not incompetent, etc..... They may carry some weight, esp if your other sibs spend very little time with your mom.

    I am sorry this is all such a big mess. It really sounds like your bro is using his kids' problems to justify gaining full control over your mother's assets. Of course he doesn't want to RENT the house. HE would have to PAY rent then. If he gets control of her assets, he can lock her up or ship her out or do whateveer and spend all the $$ LONG before any audit would catch problems. Then the rest of you kids would have to figure out how Occupational Therapist (OT) support her and he would be all "I don't know what happened. It all went to her. She spent it all before we could get control of it. I TOLD YOU she was incompetent." Plus he could force her to allow Stormy to stay in the house with her and yoru Mom would be at the mercy of Stormy because Stormy would be her "caretaker" when bro wasn't around. You know that just has NO good ending at all.
  5. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Susie, bro is not the type to try to take Mom's assets. If that were the case, I'd already be on her doorstep, and easy child would just have to figure out what to do for a sitter. Even desperate financially he wouldn't do that. Eldest bro maybe......sis in Indy probably........not this bro though.

    Stormy sees both a psychiatrist and therapist, but it's for the ADHD *cough*, other issues are totally ignored because he is in denial and school is just beginning to see some issues as she's managed to hold the facade up there until recently. And yes, there is the possibility she believed what she claimed and was hallucinating. Mom says there have been many other instances that were not as serious as this one. Lord knows the kid was cursed on both sides of the family as far as gene pool is concerned. Her mother is a mental disaster area, and that is being kind. But unless psychiatrist/therapist have picked up on this odd behavior too......Mom has little hope in proving anything. But at the moment, family would be hard pressed to get either her docs or the lawyer to say she is incompetent. Stressed maybe, incompetent, no. That they would have to agree makes me feel better.
  6. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    Lisa, there is ALWAYS the chance they could bring in other docs who would say anything they want for a fee. There are LOTS of docs out there who will do this. LOTS of them. So be sure that the docs your mom sees normally have seen her recently and are willing to go to court if they are needed (meaning if bro finds a doctor to take his side, which any shyster lawyer will have lined up long before he meets your bro). Your bro sounds VERY easily led so a shyster could easily lead him to thinking this is for your mom's best interests.

    I am sorry that it is such a mess.
  7. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    Why doesn't your mom talk to a local realtor and management property people about renting the property out period. Doesn't have to be to Brother and Stormy child. What she did, and what she's doing to your Mom is not fair,and she knows apparently that stressing her out will get her stirred up and gone. SO - gone it apparently must be in some form for a while - Say "I'd like to rent my home out for two years while I vacation wtih my daughter in ohii?"

    This way - and not to sound morbid - but this way - your Mom can sort through her stuff NOW - get rid of junk she doesn't really want to leave behind for YOU to deal with when she IS gone - and name and lable stuff she does want to go to whom etc. Pack it up, box it away. etc.....and come live with you and make a few bucks renting her house out - no one is the wiser. She has a little income - she's away from the stress. It's not permanent like selling - and if she chooses to GO back - the house is there the renters have a move out day. If she doesn't and wants to sell? Then she's in a position to do land contract with renters possibly.

    Then she has a chunk of change - goes where she wants - and tells manipulative children to kiss her rosey red cheeks.

    Just a thought.
  8. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Star, I've talked to her about that, and other ways of getting her out of there even if she wanted to hold onto the house. Up until the last phone call yesterday......she was having no part of it. That is why I know it must be awfully bad, because she's finally decided to move. I'll run it past her and see what she thinks. I know it's not always easy to give up your home.

    Good thing is, her house is in one of the best neighborhoods in the city, which means the most sought after houses in the city, or rather just outside the city. Even in this housing market, she probably won't have much trouble selling it if that is what she wants to do. She might not get what she would have a few years ago, but it's been paid off for more than a decade, so she won't lose anything either.

    She makes it a point to be very sociable with all her neighbors, all know her very well. All do check on her if they don't see her out and about because she is not a home body. And those with kids, I'm pretty sure have figured out Stormy has some fairly serious issues going on. Most won't allow her in their homes without an adult either, so it's not just Mom.

    I think Mom went through a lot of stuff when stepdad passed away and got rid of a ton of stuff. As far as any real mementos are concerned, she gave us kids our stuff years ago. The only things she has now are basically what she picked up during her marriage to stepdad.......which isn't a lot as she's not the hoarder he was., She could easily yard sale it all and no one would care much. Pics she has of the grands and great grands, well we all have copies (or I know I do).

    I still find it ironic that I swore just a few years back on this board I'd never let my mother come live with me............and now I just may do that in order to keep her from being put into a nursing home against her will. lol But then, she's mellowed immensely since then too.

    I'm trying to coax her to move. I don't care if it's over here (which the family and I would like to see happen) or if it's down with sis in texas (she won't take advantage either). She needs out of that town, regardless of the Stormy situation. Texas sis and I have been trying to talk her into moving for a couple of years now.
  9. buddy

    buddy New Member

    any way he could be thinking he could just outright get the house without any money involved? This sounds so vicious to do to your own mother, esp since she offered housing and to care for a kid after having done her kid-raising time. Sorry you are going through this.... must be awful to have family go at each other like that. HUGS, please care for yourself too.....

    (edit: nevermind I missed a post you answered he is not the kind to take her assets... sorry)
  10. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    Just because he wouldn't normally be the kind to take her assets does NOT mean that it isn't what this is about. He seems to be very easy to manipulate, esp by his daughter. The daughter, while a teen, may be pushing him to do this so that she can get freedom to do what she wants and money to blow. in my opinion it is possible that she could get him to do that.

    Do you know the neighbors? Can you get them to send you their version of what happened that morning and of other problems with Stormy? Something in writing would be best. THis would help you help your mom get the other siblings on your mom's side. Stormy seems like she is very damaged and possibly like she is either on drugs or is having bigger mental illness issues cause hallucinations. Under NO circumstances should your mother EVER drive Stormy again - it just isn't safe.

    in my opinion your mom was 100% right to tell your bro that Stormy could NOT come into the house if he was not with her. Stormy seems quite dangerous. She could easily have killed your mom by grabbing the wheel of the car. She could easily do it at any other time too. PLEASE have your mom lock her bedroom door if she doesn't already. It would NOT be out of character for Stormy to hurt her at night while your bro is sleeping.
  11. JJJ

    JJJ Active Member

    I don't think Stormy is lying exactly. It sounds like she was hallucinating -- the panic, the insistence that it happened despite "reality", etc.

    You are right that she needs serious help.
  12. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    Hound - Don't have her sell per se - have her talk to a real estate management group that would RENT out her place for a while. Maybe even furnished. ??????

    Just a thought. That way if where she moves isn't working out - it wouldn't have to NOT work out for long and she'd still have HER home to go back to plus a residual income.