Catching up....

Discussion in 'Substance Abuse' started by Mikey, Aug 20, 2007.

  1. Mikey

    Mikey Psycho Gorilla Dad

    Hi all. Hmmm, where to begin?

    Last time I was here, wife and I had just confronted McWeedy about his various extra-curricular activities (which had gone way, way off the charts). I was ready to call the police, wife threatened divorce if I did, so we ended up waiting for our first "family session" with the doctor at the study.

    At that session, McWeedy and I were like two caged pit bulls chained within barking (but not biting) distance of each other. Nothing really worthwhile happened during that part of the session, other than the doctor telling me that all my "heartfelt expressions" (i.e. diatribes) missed the mark (his brain) and went straight to being a pain in another, lower part of his body. McWeedy was then excused from the rest of the session.

    The second half of the session with just the doctor was a little better, but was more disturbing than helpful. He told us that McWeedy feels "alienated" in the house. I replied "he should, because that's exactly what I want. If I had my way, he'd be in jail right now, but my wife said she'd divorce me if I called the cops.".

    "So, you're upset, and you want him to feel constant anger and resentment?" "Yes", I replied. "Anger is the only defense against him I have left".

    That shocked him. I told him that every time I let guard down, he found a way to really kick me in the groin. I'd tried every other approach I could think of, and none of them worked. "What to you mean by 'worked'?" he asked. "Trying to get him to at least consider doing the "right thing" instead of doing whatever he felt like at the moment, without any further thought."

    "What is the "right thing"?" he asked. I replied "thinking about the possible outcomes of your actions. Will you get hurt? Will someone else get hurt? Do you gain anything for what your choice costs you? Does someone else pay the price for your choice, even if you get what you want? That's what I mean by the 'right thing'".

    "Ah, I see. And how, exactly, does expressing anger and resentment help your son make good choices?"

    I replied "it doesn't". Queue the second shocked expression on the doctor's face. He didn't have to ask, I answered the question on his face...

    "Staying angry is the only thing I have left to protect me. I've tried everything I could to get him to do the right thing, and nothing works. I've come to finally understand that my son's actions are his own, and that we don't come into the picture when he's choosing what to do. So, since he seems to mostly choose bad things in his life, and won't stop no matter how much it hurts us, all I can do is protect myself until he's either gone or changed, whichever comes first."

    Now he gets it. I'm not trying to get him to do the "right thing" any more, I'm simply trying to get him to not do bad things while he's living at home and can still damage the family. And anger, threats, and a somewhat hostile environment are the only things that have worked for any length of time.

    "So that explains the alienation", he said. "Yep, it sure does, and I mean him to feel that way. If he won't do the "right thing" because it's in his best interests, then at least I can scare or intimidate him into not doing bad things while he still lives at my house."

    "Do you think it will work?" "So far, it has. I don't think it's permanent, but at least the house has been somewhat peaceful for the last week or so. But I know it can't last, so all I can do is maintain what little control I still have over my household while he's here, and keeping him off balance with anger is the only thing that works".

    "You'll lose him that way".

    "I've already lost him, at least the "him" that I wanted to know and love and be around" I replied.

    And now the shocker. The doctor pulled out a hankie and started wiping his eyes - he was crying! He told us how it breaks his heart to see a kid with so much talent throw his entire life away the way McWeedy has, for nothing. It didn't last long, but it told me just how far down my son has gone into the rabbit hole. This is a man who has been working with adolescent substance abusers for 20+ years at one of the best facilities in the midwest, and he was crying for my son. I really couldn't take that for too long....

    Needless to say we didn't get much else out of the remaining session time. But I think wife came away with a little more understanding of how serious the situation was.

    Over the next few weeks, nothing much happened. McWeedy "seemed" to stop hanging around with his doper friends. He spent a lot of time at home, or with his girlfriend. He said he'd stopped drugging, and even offered to release the weekly drug test results to us. "Fine, but that doesn't change much, does it?" I said. wife started working on me to tone down the anger, because she felt that McWeedy was "making an effort", and I needed to respond in kind.

    At first, I resisted, but as time went on and McWeedy didn't provoke any fights, I couldn't hold out. Anger takes too much out of you. And so, I started acting less angry, more supportive, and let him in just a bit.

    My mistake.

    For about a week, I thought that backing off was "working", i.e. things weren't getting worse. But last weekend, McWeedy informed us that he was going to the lake with his girlfriend, rather than asking. He started not answering his phone again. He started arguing with his Mom again about boundaries. Those usually ended with her telling him that he hadn't earned back our trust yet - a comment that only made things worse.

    Finally, over this last weekend, things finally came to a head. McWeedy said he was going over to a friends house to work on his car, and took his girlfriend with him. Later, I saw her in front of her house, but her car was still at my house. Radar is now in full alert mode. McWeedy isn't answering his phone. Sometime later, Weedette's car disappears from in front of our house. McWeedy comes in under curfew, and when asked he said that his girlfriend got a ride back with someone.

    A blatant lie, and I knew it. He got read the riot act (again) for not answering his phone, which he said was "dead" (not true, I could see calls going in and out of his phone by checking the phone company's website). Another lie. I'm starting to smell something rotten...


    Saturday comes, and the family goes out to dinner - except for McWeedy, who's already eaten. At dinner, wife gets a "pity me" text from McWeedy, asking if we really knew how miserable he was since he'd stopped drugging, or were we so caught up in him being a good little boy that we just didn't notice? (that's a quote). wife replied that she thought he was doing much better lately, and that if he'd just give it some more time he might see that he's better off now than he was a month ago.

    A little later he texts and asks to go to see a friend play at a "battle of the bands". Where is it? "I don't know, some local high school". And he was going with one of his stoner buddies who'd just been fired for drug use. I left it up to wife, who told him that it was a real stretch for her to trust him that much, but okay, he could go. But he HAD to keep his phone on him, it HAD to be set so he could hear or feel it, and he HAD to answer it. Oh, and he still had to be home by midnight (his normal curfew).

    "Okay Mom. See you later".

    A couple of hours later, wife calls him to check in. No answer. I call him. No answer. Maybe the music is too loud? We both text him. No answer. We try again around 11pm. Still no answer. Midnight rolls around, and no McWeedy. Finally, at 12:20am, wife calls the friend's phone. He picks up, and says "Hey <McWeedy> it's your F____G mom on my phone, dude!" wife starts in immediately. You're late "I know, but my friend hasn't started playing yet". I don't hear any music, just your friend. "We're outside in between sets". You haven't been answering your phone. "It's dead". You need to come home now. "Can't I sleep over at E___'s house?" No, we don't trust you enough yet on that.

    Arguing ensues, finally wife ends by yelling that he had 20 minutes to get home. 1:00am rolls around, no McWeedy. Not answering his phone, even though I know he's making and getting calls. Friend isn't answering, girlfriend isn't answering. Nothing. Around 3:30, I call the local PD's, no reports of any injury wrecks anywhere in the county. When I said I wanted to report him as a runaway, wife chimed in and said "NO!". Finally, sometime around 4am, wife goes to sleep. McWeedy comes in around 6:30am, and simply shrugs and said "I wanted to sleep at a friend's house".

    Just like that.

    That was enough for me. So much for being "nice". I told him that whatever it was he wanted to do on Saturday night had better be worth what might happen to him as a result. "That s_ucks", and he goes in to shower before work.

    wife showed me a text message she sent him before she fell asleapp. She said that she would never forgive him for what he was doing, after she worked so hard to defend him - even threatening divorce, and this is what she gets in return.

    And yet, she still wouldn't let me call the police. Don't know what I'm going to do now. What can I do? If I do nothing, McWeedy knows he's won and will proceed to run rampant. But nothing but the threat of full nuclear holocaust on his life seems to get his attention, which wife still isn't ready to do.

    And to add to the absurdity, McWeedy asked on Sunday afternoon if he could go to the lake with his girlfriend and her parents. With as much sarcasm and vitriol as I could muster, I replied "What, you're actually asking me if you can go somewhere? You aren't simply going to run of and do whatever you want regardless of what I think?" He simply shrugs, and waits for my reply.

    "Go. Get the H___ out of here. Not like your asking means much anyway". Maybe I shouldn't have said it that way, but I was tired of shielding him from the damage his actions have done to the my and wife's emotions. He came home much too late to discuss his previous night's escapades, and wife's only reply when I said we needed to discuss some kind of consequences before we spoke to him was to yell at me "what can we do? Nothing!" Then she stalks out.

    So, folks, there it is. You wanted an update, and you have it.

    Oh, Sarge is fine. Came home the next day, seems he had some bad flu bug. 12 other cadets in his group in China got it as well after he left. He's doing great, now that he's in college. I think he's one of those people who really needed to get out of HS and into college - he's happy, motivated, and excited to go to school.

    Dancer is plugging along. In school, taking three dance classes, and has become quite the social butterfly. So far, the McWeedy drama doesn't seem to be taking any more of a toll on her than it has in the last year or so. She did say something strange, though, last night. I had apologized to her for not doing some of the things I'd promised I would do, but that staying up all night really screwed up the rest of the day. She said it was okay, and I said "no, it isn't but one way or the other it will get better". She said "like when you kick him out of the house?"

    I thought carefully, and replied "Maybe, but if that happens it will be because of his own choices. I can't have him deliberately ruining the rest of the family's lives with his drama". She then pouted and said "that would be sad". "What would, honey?" "If he left. I don't want him to leave....."

    And that was the conundrum I took to bed with me to ponder last night.

    So there it is, folks.

    Mikey
     
  2. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    Mikey, you have some choices you need to make. You may think the anger is protecting you, but it isn't. It just eats away at you and resolves nothing.

    So, you can let wife take over McWeedy 100%. Obviously, you have to let wife know this is going to happen. That means you are civil to him but make no decisions whatsoever. He asks to go somewhere, you tell him to ask his mother. He wants something, he asks mom. He's in trouble, she decides what should be done. McWeedy will probably love it. Your wife will hate it but it sounds like the only chance you have to survive this mess is to get your feet out of the doggy doo.

    You can tell your wife that the police will be called when he is out past curfew, when you think he is doing drugs, whenever you think or know what he is doing is illegal and she's just going to have accept that.

    There is one reality you need to face. Your son is addicted. Even if he wants to quit, he needs help to do so. He admitted that when he said he was miserable without his drugs. I thought before and I still think your best alternative is to get him into rehab NOW. Even if it doesn't work, you know you'll have tried.

    You can keep going the way you are. Ultimately, I think it will kill you. You're either going to have a heart attack or stroke out. There's only so much abuse a body can stand before the blood pressure explodes inside.

    And now I'm going to ask you a favor. Don't do a reply giving me the excuses why you can't do this, that or the other. I'm just giving you your possible options as I see them. What you decide to do with them is up to you.

    by the way -- Glad to hear Sarge is okay. I was worried about him.
     
  3. slsh

    slsh member since 1999

    Mikey, as the wife of a man who previously was not only *not* on the same page but was in a completely different book many many years ago... you need to turn it completely over to wife now. She has effectively tied your hands in terms of forcing the issue or applying anything even remotely logical in terms of consequences. She asks what can you do but at the same time won't let you do what you *can*, and then gets mad at you just for extra measure (trust me, been there done that, I understand the dynamics unfortunately). It's an impossible situation and it's time to completely back away from McWeedy and let wife deal with it. But that means that the next time he takes her car, credit cards, phone, she cannot look to you to solve the problem within *her* limits. She needs to do it. The next time he blows off curfew and doesn't answer the phone, *she* needs to be the one monitoring the phone bill and losing sleep. You can support and empathize but I wouldn't go much further than that. You will need to put the blinders on and bite your tongue a lot.

    I'm not criticizing her at all - I totally understand that she doesn't want to force the issue for whatever reason. But if she is going to place limits on what the consequences for his behavior are, then she needs to be the one to deal with the behaviors, completely.

    Just my opinion.
     
  4. Big Bad Kitty

    Big Bad Kitty lolcat

    Seeing where you are at this point, All I can do is agree with the others. I echo the recommendation to let wife run the ship.

    I offer a big hug and a shoulder to lean on. Remember, it is not giving up. It is giving it over.

    Hang in there. Prayers for the family.
     
  5. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I agree with the others at this point. wife is tying your hands right now. I have been your wife and to some extent I am probably still her. She will get to her breaking point in her own good time. Sometimes it takes a mother longer it seems. After all, these are our babies.
     
  6. gottaloveem

    gottaloveem Active Member

    Well I am glad to know Sarge had nothing more than the flu.

    It sounds like things are extremely stressful at your house.
    I think your wife might believe that if you two work with him
    enough, your son will "get it". Ah but no, difficult child's never change like that,they change on their own timeline, they change when the going gets real tough, and even then they are dragging their feet.

    I will give you a the quick version of what happened to my friend
    and her son:

    All through high school he did very well (my friends son) he was
    smoking pot, but his grades were good and teachers loved him.
    They weren't strict but he wasn't making life miserable for them.Well he went downhill senior year(I still don't know the details) He did manage to win an award for a film he directed and even had it nominated in the Student Film across America festival (for college kids,her son was still in high school ) He is very talented. About two weeks ago, my friends came back from a trip and things at home weren't great, a family argument followed and my friends son pushed her. My friends husband found out, and he told my friend, that's it and they kicked their son out of the house. They told him HE is responsible for paying for college (financial aid in his name) They will not help him he is on his own.


    Wow I thought, one strike you are out, I felt bad
    because he really was doing OK, now he is on his own and very
    mad at his parents. This was Alex's friend since they were born. I was shocked they took such a hard stance but maybe they are saving themselves aggravation while they are making him grow up. He already got a job after he was kicked out. (Earlier this summer he quit his job he had so he could party his "last" summer before college away) My friend does suspect he moved on to harder drugs.


    You and your wife will have to do something drastic before you
    have any peace in your house.Your wife wont be ready till you
    dump him in her lap. It's a good strategy, you haven't tried it yet.

    As always I wish you luck with McWeedy. I will keep my fingers crossed that he does have a lightbulb moment and "gets it" without too much hardship.

    Hang in there! Try to detach completely.


    Lia
     
  7. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    I am sending supportive thoughts and prayers your way. It is
    difficult when everyone is on the same page. Obviously, that is
    not the case and having a hundred CD members agree with you or
    giving suggestions is not going to make things aok for your family. I am very truly, sincerely, sorry that it is difficult.
    I do wish that you and your wife and your daughter could/would
    attend a meeting together but I know you wish many things also.
    Post as often as it helps you. You are part of our family and
    even if we can't solve your problems we sure as heck can listen
    and read whenever you need support. DDD
     
  8. gottaloveem

    gottaloveem Active Member

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dammit Janet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with the others at this point. wife is tying your hands right now. I have been your wife and to some extent I am probably still her. She will get to her breaking point in her own good time. Sometimes it takes a mother longer it seems. After all, these are our babies. </div></div>

    And yes, it does take us mommies a lot longer. We will always look at them as our babies we need to take care of. I feel bad for your wife, I know how painful this can be.

    And I wish the doctor. wouldn't put you on any guilt trip for being angry. Does McWeedy actually think you wouldn't be angry at him for his selfish behavior?
     
  9. gottaloveem

    gottaloveem Active Member

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DDD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It is difficult when everyone is on the same page. Obviously, that is not the case and having a hundred CD members agree with you or giving suggestions is not going to make things aok for your family.
    Post as often as it helps you. You are part of our family and
    even if we can't solve your problems we sure as heck can listen
    and read whenever you need support. DDD</div></div>



    Couldn't be better spoken (written?)
     
  10. everywoman

    everywoman Active Member

    Mikey, sometimes detachment simply means acceptance: He is going to do what he is going to do. You and wife are not going to kick him out. At this point in the game, you need to back up and let natural consequences play things out. You are busted, with no cards left to play. Get out of the game. Don't call.I never call difficult child's cell) Don't check up on him (It's just going to be a lie anyway). Don't make smart comments (Sometimes I slip but I try really hard to bite my tongue). Learn to look the other way (Okay this take some practice, but it can happen: glazed eyes could just mean he is getting a cold; he could have stumbled on something lying in the hall).... Sometimes, sadly, that's all we can do until....one of three things will happen: he will stop, the cops will stop him, or he will die! That's the sad reality. I know I sound jaded---but I have been dealing with this for years---mine is 19 and has been at it since 15. My rules now are simple: don't ask me for anything, don't steal anything I own, and don't bring drugs into my house! It is amazing what you can learn to not see when you stop looking. It makes life more pleasant for you and those you love! Good luck.
     
  11. Mikey

    Mikey Psycho Gorilla Dad

    Katmom/everywoman, re: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is amazing what you can learn to not see when you stop looking. </div></div>

    If only it were that easy for me. Being a male who's last name ends in a vowel, it's hard for me to be deatached. I've tried and tried, but I can't bring myself to simply detach. Instead, I shift my emotions back and forth; right now, I'm cycling through the "put him on the street if he hates it so much at home" side of the pendulum swing.

    As long as he lives here, I don't think I can ever truly detach. I'll either be too optomistic or too angry. I'll either go over the top trying to keep him out of harms way, or I'll be fighting with wife over whether or not to call the police. But I don't think I'll ever be able to find peace the way you describe it.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm not disparaging your suggestion. God knows that I've come full circle with you good people over the last six months, and now am willing to consider doing things that would have horrified me earlier. I don't judge, but I do know myself. And try as I might, that might be one goal I'll never be able to attain.

    Thanks so much for your kind reply, though. I really appreciate both your suggestion, and the experience behind it.

    Mikey
     
  12. Mikey

    Mikey Psycho Gorilla Dad

    Lia, re: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your wife wont be ready till you dump him in her lap. It's a good strategy, you haven't tried it yet.</div></div>
    You're right, but that time may actually have come and gone in a split second. wife had a "discussion" tonight with McWeedy, and it seems that the esteemed young gentleman has finally conviced wife that we're just impediments to his life. "Oh yeah, I care about you guys. Sure I do." Yes, he cares about us in the same way that he cares whether or not a bird pooped on his car. S_ucks if it happens, but no big deal to simply clean it off and go on with your life.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will keep my fingers crossed that he does have a lightbulb moment and "gets it" without too much hardship.</div></div>
    I do too, but I'm ashamed to admit that I'll never trust him again between now and that moment when the bulb does go off (if it ever does). And with my luck, the darn thing will probably burn out two seconds after it lights up. Oh well.....

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hang in there! Try to detach completely.</div></div> See my earlier post. :wink:

    Mikey
     
  13. Mikey

    Mikey Psycho Gorilla Dad

    Sorry MB, but re: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may think the anger is protecting you, but it isn't. It just eats away at you and resolves nothing.</div></div>
    You're partially right. It does eat away at me. Every day. But just tonight, McWeedy admitted that he's truly afraid we'll kick him out. Personally, I think he's more worried about losing his "living ameneties" than he is losing contact with us. C'est la vie (or, should I say "C'est la guerre"?)

    He then starts in with the pity party of "I've quit drugging", to which I replied "No, you haven't".

    Hunh?

    "You may not be using at the moment, but you haven't quit drugging. It's that you've finally been given sufficient motivation to stop doing illegal and harmful things while living at my house. That's not "stopping", that's "coping because of fear".

    To which he wholeheartedly agreed. I finally told him that I no longer care if he gets his life straight. He either will or he won't. But while he's living in my house, on my dime, he will abide by the same rules as everyone else, or he was welcome to try his own hand at self-sufficiency.

    Did I mention this was during his conversation with wife? I'll take it as a good sign that she didn't jump in on me during the conversation, nor did she try to defend McWeedy afterwards. That fact didn't go unnoticed by McWeedy, either. I think he realizes that this weekend's antics probably cost him the only ally he had left in our house.

    And, to go back to the original topic, it was my anger and his resultant fear that brought us to this point. I think it's terrible that our relationship has devolved to such a state, but it is his choice. And if I can't get him to do the right thing for his own benefit, then at least I will have control of my own house. If he hates it so much here, and feels so little connection to the family that we don't register on his mind when he's contemplating bad things, then the front door is open and I won't stand in his way.

    After tonight, I don't think wife will, either. Her call, her conversation, her decision. She's the captain, I was just along for the ride. I'll wait and see where the boat goes now.....

    Mikey
     
  14. Sunlight

    Sunlight Active Member

    amen to all that everywoman said.

    your wife needs to stop being so wimpy and realize this kid is ruining the family peace and he knows no one will stop him.

    sad.
     
  15. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Mikey...I want to point one thing out. One of the other posters above mentioned that all this has the potential of actually killing you through a heart attack or stroke. She wasnt kidding.

    On May 5th or 6th of this year, after a weekend of screaming and fits with my son, my husband had a mild stroke. Thank heavens it was no worse than it was but it was a wake up call to the stress that these kids can put us through.

    I was/am more like your wife in that I get mad at the antics and then scream for husband to come "fix" things then basically tie his hands in many cases. That is hard to admit. I dont want to see my kid homeless or in pain or or or. He also knows how to tug at my heart strings and his dads so he can wiggle back in. Then its the same thing all over again. We get the few good days or weeks...then its bedlam again. I start wanting husband to fix things and it stresses him out.

    You need to find a way so that you arent always in the middle of that stress. It can cause physical harm to you. Something really has to give and if it is in the way you parent your son...well oh well if it keeps you alive. Better an alive Mikey than a dead one because that isnt going to change McWeedy.
     
  16. Big Bad Kitty

    Big Bad Kitty lolcat

    Don't use your last name ending in a vowel as an excuse to not detach. You are turning this into a macho Italian thing. You are not fooling this dago. Just stop.

    You wonder where McWeedy gets it? Exhibit A:

    ~~McWeedy needs to stop drugging because it is bad for his health. He could have an asthma attack and die.
    ~~Mikey needs to stop controlling because it is bad for his health. He could have a heart attack and die.

    Apple, tree. Pot, kettle.

    Get yourself BACK to your meetings, and throw in an alanon meeting for good measure. Get a new sponsor. Detach. Serenity prayer. You know the drill.
     
  17. Sunlight

    Sunlight Active Member

    yell
    be quiet
    throw stuff
    threaten
    be angry
    cry
    laugh
    hide
    run
    stay

    does it really matter? you can do what you want, it wont change him. stop trying.

    change you.
    love what bad kitty wrote.
     
  18. Mikey

    Mikey Psycho Gorilla Dad

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ant'smom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...does it really matter? you can do what you want, it wont change him. stop trying.</div></div>
    Isn't that the point? I'm not trying to change him any more. I simply expect that certain rules will be followed for his continued access to the family resources. Whether he chooses to make those changes permanent, temporary (until he moves out), or even less temporary (i.e. until he's shown the door) is up to him.

    Not arguing, but I really have moved beyond the 'trying to change him' stage. Maybe I'm a little more like everywoman's role than I thought...

    Mikey
     
  19. Sunlight

    Sunlight Active Member

    I am glad you are getting more detached. I am thinking the rules you set are not being followed anyway so why make rules?? ignore him. no car, nothing but a roof and food if he saunters in. let him do his own laundry too. why let him have a cellphone when he abuses it by not answering etc. he is using that same phone to call his buddies. if you pay for it, shut it off and make him uncomfortable.
     
  20. Sunlight

    Sunlight Active Member

    Don't know what I'm going to do now. What can I do? If I do nothing, McWeedy knows he's won and will proceed to run rampant.

    If only it were that easy for me. Being a male who's last name ends in a vowel, it's hard for me to be deatached. I've tried and tried, but I can't bring myself to simply detach. Instead, I shift my emotions back and forth; right now,
    As long as he lives here, I don't think I can ever truly detach. I'll either be too optomistic or too angry.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    mikey, I was reading those word of yours I posted here. that is what makes me see you still trying too hard. dont get too frustrated with me pushing you a bit here. I used to hope and then be hurt too. no more. my son does his own thing. he is older and I kicked him out several times from age 18 on. took me quite a while to remove my life from his choices. you can start now by ignoring his actions and stop participating. if he is not home at curfew lock up for the night. all you have done has not changed his actions. he hasnt won, but you can change your course of action.
     
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