I'm in a prison again with our third baby, oldest son getting worse

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by PlainJane, Jul 26, 2014.

  1. PlainJane

    PlainJane Every dog has his day....

    I've been visiting this site since my oldest son was about 2 or 3. He's almost 7 now and he's basically destroying our family. His doctor will not budge from an autism diagnosis, but I know he is ODD, and possibly bipolar or borderline. He has no friends. The kids at school don't want to be around him. But he is sneaky. The teachers only say that he talks to much, though they do say other children express he is mean, but he's knows to do it when no one is looking. The past two years we invite his classmates to his birthday and NO ONE goes. Not a single child. And this is a large class. He argues everything, lies for NO reason, tortures his 4 year old brother and we generally don't like him being home. My 4 year old is typical and wonderful.

    We have a 1 year old, and I can see it in him. The nonstop screaming, arching his back, screaming all the time. He wakes up screaming, he wont sit in the stroller or a shopping cart for a minute. I try to go shopping and he screams, throwing his head back. If he is in a seat that has a back to it he will slam his head into it. I remember the prison I was in with my first son. (We still are) I couldn't go anywhere like moms with normal kids. He screamed and thrashed about, I couldn't go grocery shopping or to the mall, I stayed home and got quite depressed always being in. I couldn't go on playdates, because he just screamed and caused a scene. How do I explain that he is always miserable....People would say "oh he must be tired or hungry" but no he's just miserable.

    Now my third is starting those behaviors. If I take the kids to the park, he screams in the stroller. He cant walk yet, and if I try to hold him he screams and tries to throw himself back and out of my arms. I used to get such anxiety with my oldest son because I knew every where we went, he would tantrum and scream. It took a while with my middle normal child to feel like a normal mom. To go places like zoos and parks to enjoy being a mother. And now the anxiety is back. Every where we go, like the store I know I have only minute before the screaming starts. I have half a mind to ignore it since I know if I have to go through this again I'll be depressed and I know I cannot do this again. I cannot live in a prison again. Then people stare. My baby screaming, and my oldest yelling out and mouthing off. The other day in the store I out my hand on my oldest so shoulder while talking o him and he started screaming I hurt him and scratched him. He made a huge scene. I don't want to do this anymore. His doctor doesn't listen. She says its autism, but its not. Its something worse.

    He'll say his brother hit him or bit him when I saw that did not happen. He does bad things that I SAW then recalls reality different, and lies about it. He yell nonsensical phrases that don't even have meanings. He is not violent per say.

    He is the kind of kid that has lied about a teachers conduct, gotten that teacher in a lot of trouble, a huge issue as a result, and then we find out it was a lie because he didn't like something she did (which was perfectly acceptable for a teacher to do). Like he is so evil, that he would lie and watch those lies cause great and unreversable trouble for someone just to get revenge. But he is so smart and sneaky, he really knows how to hind this from the doctors and the right people.

    And now the baby too. God I hope he's not going to be the same way. I cant do this again. Some days I just want to leave with the 4 year old and let my husband raise the others. I feel so awful. I'm his mother, I'm supposed to love him, but all I see is this evil child. Like I said, he's never been one to physically attack someone, but he knows how to manipulate people and situations to get back at people in horrible ways. How can a child this young know how to do this???
  2. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Is it possible he has attachment disorder? Did he have chaotic early years? Is your husband his father or did he come into his life after a divorce? On the other hand, that would not explain your youngest son acting the same way. Any dysfunctional or mentally ill people on either side of your two son's genetic (has to be genetic) family tree? Genetics is huge, as most adoptive parents know!! (I am one).

    They do not diagnose borderline until a child is eighteen. ODD is just kind of saying "he's defiant" but it doesn't tell why. He may have a few things going on at the same time. I would see a neuropsychologist. Obviously whoever you saw is not getting it right. A fresh look may be just the help you need.

    Good luck and keep us posted.
  3. LittleDudesMom

    LittleDudesMom Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I agree with MWM in that there is something the doctor is missing. You live with your son every day - you are the expert on your son. A correct diagnosis can mean everything! It is a step in regaining your sanity. I suggest you get a second opinion. Have you learned any parenting techniques from the doctors? Often we have to adjust how we REACT in order to change their behavior. And at other times, what we do or do not do has no effect at all.

    These kids of ours are tough to raise - no manuals, no printed directions on the bottom of their feet. One of the things that really helped my son when he was chaotic and raging was a tight schedule at home. He knew what to expect and when to expect it. It took some doing, but eventually it helped even out his attitude and he became a little "less taunt". A specific routine when he got home from school, a specific time and place in the house for homework, clear behavior expectations at the dinner table, and a strict bedtime hour with a wind-down routine of reading then lights out with a little low talking. It was an adjustment for me because I dropped everything to attend to his needs at the time every night, but it made a huge difference in the long run - for both of us.

    Hang in there, we understand of what you speak!
  4. PlainJane

    PlainJane Every dog has his day....

    Thank you both. Nothing unusual happened. My husband and I have been together 14 years. Happy marriage. Neither of us have any mental health issues. No alcohol or drug abuse. We don't even fight in front of the kids. We are both happy, moderately social people. Not life of the party, but we have friends and chat with neighbors, hubby is well liked at work etc. (I am home with the kids).

    Family history is kind of sucky though. My mother is mentally ill. She was never officially diagnosed with anything other than depression, though she is classic borderline. She also has the depressive/manic cycles of a bipolar, so maybe that's the case too. I stopped talking to her nearly a decade ago. Her mental illness, victim mentality and overall toxic personality was horrible. I have been so much happier without her.

    My husband's grandmother and his sister have classic NPD symptoms. He fully agrees, its not just me hating my in laws lol. His grandmother is dead now, but his sister, who we have no contact with has caused endless issues among his family. His other siblings are aware of her personality issues, but keep low contact.

    I worry greatly about genetics in this case. Both hubby and I have the genetic potential to be carrying these disorders. I worry we have passed them onto our kids. The problem is, none of these people were officially diagnosed. But from my understanding people with personality disorders are not always diagnoses because they lack the insight into their problems, they think its everybody else.

    I've never really expressed to my sons doctor about the genetic history. I guess I'm concerned she will hear "I don't like thee people in my family and my husband's family so therefor they are crazy". I feel like without being able to say that a doctor who is qualified to say so, diagnosed these people, that my thoughts on these family members and their personality disorders wont be taken seriously.

    My husband has expressed that he doesn't feel our sons doctor listens to our concerns. Because our son does not act out in front of her, and because he is not getting is serious trouble at school, it seems they act like we are exaggerating and looking for problems. But both my husband and I see it. And a few other people that my son knows are not in "important positions of power" (like the bus driver) he has shown this true side too. Its like he knows which people he needs to fool and which people cant actually affect him that much.

    How does he know his at his age? How at such a young age, does he know to put up a fake appearance for the school principal, but knows he can mouth off to the bus driver and get away with it. He's done this, and she has spoken to me, and I believe her, but when she writes him up, it seems they don't take her seriously, because he is "so good" for his regular teachers. He already knows which people have the "power" in the school setting... :(

    He's not the kind of kid that would hurt someone physically for no reason. Its not a physical aggression, but more of a very sly ability to manipulate the people around him to get what he wants. And if he doesnt get what he wants, he doesn't usually strike out physically, but knows how to turn the table on that person.
    Example, he doesn't get to pick out a treat at the store, so he starts talking very loudly about how he is so hungry and I never let him eat when he's hungry, and at least he can eat in school...all the while smiling and quietly telling me so only I can hear "I'll stop if you let me get a treat".
  5. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    He doesn't sound Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) at all. Aspergers is now a part of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), but he doesn't sound Aspie either. They are usually too clueless about people to be that manipulative at such a young age. Is he seeing a neuropsychologist or a psychiatrist or are you just taking him to a pediatrician? Pediatricians are not really trained to test for childhood disorders and tend to know very little about them. in my opinion, partly due to the family history, it is best to get him completely evaluated. That way you can also know what may be going on with your younger son. neuropsychologist testing is very intensive...six to ten hours of it...but in my opinion it is the best and most accurate. Everything is covered, pretty much. Is it possible that any of your relatives whom you feel had personality disorders also had bipolar disorder or schizophrenia? Any hallucinations? Hospitalizations? Suicide attempts? Suicide? Does your son have nightmares or talk about people or things that are not really there or say he hears things in his head? How does he relate to his same-age peers?

    You really should probably write it all down and then make an appointment. with an expert who can evaluate your son and help him. The sooner a child gets help, the better the prognosis.

    Good luck!!!!
  6. jugey

    jugey Active Member

    Hello plainjane,

    I can relate to your story. Our, now 13 yr old daughter, was a lot like your son. To some extent she still is. Our family history is also similar. We have seen several psychiatrists, psychologists and paediatricians over the years and I still don't think we have an accurate diagnosis. We finally got a neuropsychologist evaluation is 2011 and it was very helpful. It helped us to understand her and not see her as evil and manipulative. It also helped the clinicians we've seen since....finally the bad parenting perspective was dropped. I can't tell you how many times I was told to create a reward chart in order to inspire her! Drove me nuts!!!

    It has become clear that medication is totally necessary in our case! We recently weaned her of all medications and the instability that showed up as totally unbearable. As soon as we got her back on new medications she stabilized and is now much more manageable and happy....she's lighter.

    I hope you find a good psychiatric doctor(s) very soon so that you can find some peace. My advice is bang on every door available until someone listens!!!

    Good luck!

    Peace out!
  7. amelia d

    amelia d Hope outweighs experience

    You are not going to want to hear what I say...but, just put it into perspective. My stepson was diagnosed with ASP after I encouraged his father to get him tested. My first experience with him was when he shut the door in the face of my daughter and me. That was 10 years ago(he was 8), and it hasn't improved since. There were never any friends or birthday party invites. I caught him look around and then splash the kid next store in the face repeatedly in the pool while this child cried. My husband is the kindest man you will ever meet. He lost his wife to cancer when his son was 5 y/o, so he never wanted to focus on issues. This child was raised by a single father and doting grandparents who spoiled him rotten, and never corrected his bad behavior. Does your son act differently with you and your husband? My stepson will do everything he can to oppose me. If I say it's black, he'll say it's white. If I agree with him, he'll change his answer. He will do things specifically to embarrass me, but then act like he doesn't now what the problem is. You mentioned in earlier posts that your son asks you questions he already knows the answer to..well, just wait until he's figured out how to google the answer. When he asks me a question now, I ask what he thinks. We both know it has become a game of how much more he knows about the topic, and how he can make me seem stupid. I have learned a couple of things over the years. First, he'll never be that warm, friendly son I would have hoped for. Aspergers kids (and adults) lack empathy . This doesn't mean that they don't understand how to piss people off..trust me, he's very good at it. Second, he will likely never accept me as his mother and third, he will never admit he's wrong. He lies when given the opportunity to tell the truth; and he is not a good liar. He is exhausting, manipulative and very often mean. Deliberately. Your son will likely not change. It used to make us sad that he had no friends and seemed isolated, but kids with aspergers don't view things the same way. I don't think he cared as much as we did. He has been in therapy for years, with no real improvement. Occasionally he'll have a friend, but it never last long because everything has to be on his terms. On the flip side, he has a blind, misplaced sense of loyalty to certain people on his mother's side of the family; though they've never treated him well.The one thing that I have been told multiple times is, "you're the adult". That is somehow supposed to both empower me and give me the patience and desire to keep trying with a child who is pretty unlikable. But the advice is not wrong. I should be able to extend him more patience and show more encouragement with him. But as you know, living with the constant negative response feels like you are always wearing a heavy coat..no matter how warm it is. Try keeping your interactions with him short. Read him a story, or let him read one to you. Let him decorate a cookie (don't sweat how crazy it is). This is not a child who is going to respond to long term goals. Short, specific and enjoyable will make you and him (probably) feel better.
    I would get both him and the infant to a doctor who is willing to run tests that will rule out any physical issues. Then move on to mental and psychological issues. As you probably know, they likely will treat only the symptoms (our boy was on anti-depressive medications for a bit, then adhd medications (made him more agitated ). As they move through school. accommodations can be made to help them succeed. My biggest joy was his acceptance to a college that will move him out of the house. His condition and our dysfunctional relationship has caused stress and pressure on everyone in the house. I believe it is one of the reasons my daughter is now having problems with drugs. My marriage is always stressed. Best of luck to you and your family..sorry this is so long.
  8. Wiped Out

    Wiped Out Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I definitely agree with MWM, write it all down and make an appointment with an expert. When my son was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and we started the medication merry-go-round I seriously wondered if anything would help. As we took him to therapy twice a week for many years and eventually once a week for many more, I wondered if anything would help. He was hospitalized 6 times over the years (3 times in 3 months) and I wondered if anything would help. Life with my difficult child was so hard.

    He is now 17 and doing so much better than I ever would have believed. He is still a difficult child but there is no violence and he isn't manipulative like he used to be; there is some of that but not much. When my dad and his wife's grandkids turn 10 they take them for a week. When difficult child turned 10 there was no way they could. They have now had him since last Friday and say he is doing so well. While I enjoyed the break, I am looking forward to seeing him today. His teachers comment on how much he has improved and actually enjoy having him on their caseload and in their classes.

    I'm telling you this so that hopefully you will see that things can get better (believe me in the darkest days I didn't think it was possible). This place helped through so much of it and kept me going. Sending gentle hugs your way; keep posting, it really helped me to hear the support and advice people here gave.