Need advise of how to make a puppy an outside dog!

Andy

Active Member
Looks like another time to agree to disagree!

I did not get the puppy from a puppy mill and there is no reason a large dog can not spend time outside. As long as the dog is taken care of, spends oodles of time with its family (which this one will or I would not have gotten it), and is never neglected (again, no chance of this in our family), it will be happy and healthy.

Have you never ever been to homes where their dogs are outdoors when you drive up or walk up? I do not live in a tight residential area where homes are real close together. I will not be chaining it up for hours on end or getting one of those electronic collars for it. I don't believe large dogs should be confined to indoors. If that works well for you than that is your belief and good for your dog - it has learned to be happy inside all the time except for the brief times outside for exercise that is structured.

Where I live, dogs are outdoors a lot. They are happy and healthy. They get plenty of attention. I don't understand the thinking that ALL dogs must be indoors 24/7 outside of times taken outside for a daily walk or two.

This dog will be inside when we are home (even overnight) and will get lots and lots of attention! It will be happy and healthy and that is all that counts. We don't have to get so extreme and upset over this! Our puppy will be just fine!

You are not going to change my thinking on this and I can see you will not understand or accept my views. So best be subject closed!
 
I don't believe large dogs should be confined to indoors. If that works well for you than that is your belief and good for your dog - it has learned to be happy inside all the time except for the brief times outside for exercise that is structured.

Where I live, dogs are outdoors a lot. They are happy and healthy. They get plenty of attention. I don't understand the thinking that ALL dogs must be indoors 24/7 outside of times taken outside for a daily walk or two.

My dogs have not "learned to be happy" inside. They were never unhappy. They are outside as much as they want to be when I am home. I have a large fenced-in yard where they can romp and run as much as they want to--unstructured. They are not "confined."

I'm still wondering where the bichon is going to be when the golden is outside. If size is the only criteria for booting a family member to the backyard, I know some people who had better watch out!

As for training, though--your original question--I say forget it. You'll not train him to be happy about being put outside while the Bichon stays in the comfy of home.
 

DaisyFace

Love me...Love me not
As for training, though--your original question--I say forget it. You'll not train him to be happy about being put outside while the Bichon stays in the comfy of home.

Yes, the puppy will expect to do whatever the older dog is doing. The older dog will help him housetrain. The older dog will "show him the ropes". My guess is that the puppy will fuss A LOT about being "left out" if the rest of the pack is inside.

In my house, we have two dogs. Both collie mixes. One really loves just sitting outside watching traffic--BUT after an hour or two, she whines to come back inside and will cuddle up with the other dog. They go nuts if we keep them apart for too long. They're like "book-ends". It's very cute.

If your dogs end up bonding like that--you might have to put them BOTH outside! :)
 
M

Mamaof5

Guest
I have a husky\wolf hybrid (yes it's legal here). I never said he was in the house 24/7. In fact he goes everywhere we go! Bush camping, drives, park, tons of walks. I don't chain him up (I don't even have a yard - if you want to see my place check out Step2's camping thread, I posted an album of Elliot Lake, you'll even see a picture of my fur baby). I work with a no-kill shelter and the general consensus I've always heard and seen around me both with the no kill shelter and the general population is you just don't chain a dog by themselves at all for long periods of time. We have by-laws here about that.

A puppy needs more than that at that age, constant care like a human baby to be socialized and psychologically healthy. Chain a puppy at that stage for a few hours a day and you'll have a very miserable, grumpy and possibly snippy puppy. It seems like you really want to justify your ideas about this puppy and justify getting this puppy. Your other thread, I saw a lot of doubt about the idea of a new puppy even in your own thought processes and words - here too. If you can't take a dog full on all the way around in all stages it might be best to forgo getting the dog in the first place.
 
No rescue organization I know would allow anyone to adopt one of their dogs if the dog was going to be an outside dog.

I wonder why? My impression has always been that all the shelters are absolutely FILLED with dogs in need of homes, especially large dogs. It would seem that the people who run these places would be anxious to place as many of these animals as possible, since there are always so many dogs in need. Wouldn't they surely have a good reason for a policy like this?
 

klmno

Active Member
Suz is right - at least based on my experience with several rescue organizations. They are in need of placement for pets, but they are pretty careful to make sure it is a good fit for the person and the pet and that the pet will be taken care of well and not just "housed" when it's supposed to be the forever home. Their theory is that if they don't approach it this way, the animal ends up neglected or abused or being brought back to a shelter.

Our SPCA here has a good way of assuring good fits. They let you come in and look at pets thru glass, but before going further they talk to the family members about their vision of what type of pet they are looking for, how it will fit in their family, daily schedule, etc. Then, they let you spend time with a few individually that they think are good sizes, temperament, etc, for what you are looking for. If either the pet or the family doesn't seem comfortable and it doesn't look like there is a potential for bonding, they don't allow the adoption. If you want to come back for a second visit because you want time to think about it, they'll let you bring the other pet from the home to visit the potential adoptive pet and see how they get along. They have individual visiting rooms for this.

This might be something you should consider, Andy.
 
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DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
I am probably in more of the same situation as Andy. I live in the country...or a rural setting. It used to be much more country but the urban sprawl is moving in. I have one tiny pretty much constantly house dog. Then I have 2 pitbulls. One pit was raised in the house from 8 weeks (which was right around NYE) until about mid-April. We have two large pens in the yard with good shading. The other pit puppy is probably 3 months old now and I have nothing to do with it because Cory just brought it here and I refuse to get attached to anything more! Nina...the older one, still comes in probably several times a week to have a lovefest with her momma. She will climb up on my bed and snuggle but she is really happy outside. She knows her boundaries of our yard that she can run. She will run the yard over and over and jump practically flips every day when we go get the dogs out. Which we do...every night when it cools off so they can play.

I dont think they are jealous of our small dog, I think the small dog is jealous of them! He will stand outside the pens and beg to get let in.
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
I wonder why? My impression has always been that all the shelters are absolutely FILLED with dogs in need of homes, especially large dogs. It would seem that the people who run these places would be anxious to place as many of these animals as possible, since there are always so many dogs in need. Wouldn't they surely have a good reason for a policy like this?

Because the lifespan of an outside dog is cut dramatically. Their quality of life is far lower than that of an inside dog. They're more likely to get serious disease than an inside dog. They're more likely to bite a stranger than an inside dog. They're more likely to escape and be hit by a vehicle. I could go on and on. Unless you are in a farming community and need a ranch dog, there's really no reason for an outside dog. I know that some will disagree with me, but ask anyone if they like their neighbor's "outside dog". You'll get a resounding NO! Ask a vet if you should let your dog live outside, and there will be another big NO! Dogs are pack animals. Unless you want them to live in a pack outside, it's cruel.
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
O.K. Then inside at night it is - In difficult child's room. When we are home, it will be with us at all times but we are not home 24/7. I would think outside during the day on nice days (when it is older) when we are gone for awhile? It would have more room to move in its outdoor kennel than in the indoor crate. It will not be allowed to roam the house unsupervised - likewise, there is no room that I would want it to have free roam of while we are gone.

The dogs we had while I was growing up were outdoor dogs who did not like to be inside for very long so I don't have any experience with large dogs in the house. I don't have a problem with the dog inside overnight or in extreme weather (hot or cold or stormy) or when someone is home supervising it. That is why I got one with low shedding since I knew it would be inside a lot.

Standard poodles are one of the large dog breeds. Both the mom and dad of this puppy are outdoor dogs with barn/shed as shelter from the weather.

Thank you all for your input. I do understand where you are coming from. I assure you that it will not be kept alone or away from the family while someone is home (including overnight - it can be in difficult child's room with him). I know lots of "outdoor" dogs that are indoors with the family much of the time but can be found in their outdoor kennels during the day if their family are gone for awhile weather permitting. I just don't know how old the dog was when they started doing so.

I crate trained my dogs inside. Inside in the garage, or in a room of their own. Oscar still has a crate in our room that he goes in from time to time. He and Mandy have "their" room when we're gone. Nothing to destroy in there.

FWIW, there are too many loud scary noises to crate train a dog outside. Weather can swing to extremes quickly, and what may have been a nice day when you left can turn into a sweltering killer or a thunderstorm in a few minutes. There's no reason to have to crate train outside. Find a quiet place for the crate inside.
 

Suz

(the future) MRS. GERE
EB, rescue organizations are committed to trying to make the best possible match for their animals so that they won't have to be moved again. They do not feel that "any home is better than no home." Most have an application process, check your references, even have home visits to make sure you have a fenced yard. One rescue I volunteered with many years ago even had surprise post-adoption visits to make sure that all was well.


Why Dogs Should Be Indoor Pets: Outdoor Risks, Solving Indoor Problems

When people ask, 'why shouldn't dogs be kept outside' and 'how do I teach my dog to be an indoor dog,' share this good advice, which contains guidance from 'The Great, Awful Outdoors' by canine behavior expert and author Pat Miller, published in Your Dog newsletter.

Dogs like living indoors with their family. They are by nature pack animals, so keeping dogs outside denies them a place in the family pack. According to author and trainer Pat Miller, the reasons given for keeping dogs outdoors fall into two categories:
* Inappropriate dog behavior that can be managed and/or modified (example: 'the dog's not housetrained'), and
* People's preconceived notions, which can also be modified (example: 'dogs should be outside in the fresh air').
Certainly, dogs benefit from spending some time outside. But this time should consist of play sessions in the yard and walks around the neighborhood, not solitary confinement outdoors.

Problems that result from leaving dogs outdoors:
* Dogs kept outdoors are deprived of human companionship and have more trouble bonding with human family members. They have more trouble learning to interact properly with humans. And without adequate supervision and guidance from their owners, dogs can and will develop undesirable behaviors.
* Bored dogs left in yards often bark at every sound or movement to occupy themselves ... dig holes ... fence-fight with neighboring dogs and other animals ... chew and damage fencing, siding, decks and outdoor furnishings ... dig under fencing ... and climb or jump over fences. And when the owners do visit the dog in the yard, the dog is often out of control, having been starved of human companionship.

More risks:
* Escape from the yard, which can lead to being hit by a car, lost in the woods, hurt by people. Also: they can frighten and even bite people out of confusion.
* Taunting and cruelty from youths or adults on the other side of the fence.
* Theft.
* Poisoning.
* Neighbor complaints and threats; visits from animal control officers.
* Accidental release by a passerby, meter reader or service technician. And any resulting bites.
* Frustration from wanting to visit with passing dogs and humans, which can lead to barrier aggression, which fuels aggression towards other dogs and humans.
* Illness and chronic health problems from being out in hot, cold or wet weather.
* Sunburn or heatstroke.
* Flystrike on ears and other body parts, which can lead to open wounds and maggot infestation.
* Electrocution when digging up or chewing on wiring outside the house.
* Development of obsessive behaviors such as tail chasing, fly snapping and self-mutilation as a result of boredom and frustration.
Creative solutions to inside-out problems, courtesy of Pat Miller:
* Good manners don't just happen. The owner needs to take responsibility for helping his dog learn good behavior and house manners. That means spending some time each day in training the dog, being sure to reward him for appropriate bathroom and other behaviors. Remember that dogs are continually looking to their people for cues, so owners must provide, look for and take opportunities to reward positive behaviors and to discourage negative ones. (Example: many owners accidentally reward dogs for jumping up by pushing the dog off. Seemingly unpleasant gestures such as pushing the dog off typically encourage repeated jumping, since the dog is just looking for attention.)
* Enroll in a good training class that focuses on praise and other means of positive reinforcement.
* Provide exercise each day. A tired dog is a well-behaved dog. Throw a ball with the dog. Go for long walks. Give the dog a good exercise session before you leave for work in the morning.
* Provide the dog with lots of opportunities to display good behavior. And praise him whenever he does the right thing. Positive reinforcement leads to repetition of desired behaviors.
* Until the dog learns good house manners, confine him in a dog-safe room, puppy pen or crate inside the house when you're not there to supervise. Baby gates as well as doors can be used to control access to various parts of your house. Be sure to leave him several safe, interactive dog toys, such as a Kong toy stuffed with some treats and a little peanut butter or cream cheese. Make sure the dog has access to fresh water, especially when you're gone for a long period. When first using a crate, teach the dog that good things happen in the crate, and reward him when he displays calm behavior.
* Never use the crate for punishment, since that will cause the dog to develop a negative association with the crate. You can use the crate for a time-out, but keep things cheerful -- for example, if the dog gets revved up again after an exercise session ends, you might say 'Oops! Time out' and instruct him to go to the crate in a calm, upbeat voice. Miller suggests an indoor, portable tether as a good alternative to a crate for time-outs when you are home to watch the dog. A time-out should be a short, pleasant interlude for the dog.
* If you have to be gone from the home longer than the dog can hold his or her urine, arrange with a dog walking service or neighbor to take the dog out. Some people have taught dogs (usually small breeds) to use a box containing commercial dog litter or Astroturf that can be hosed off.
* Avoid leaving food, garbage and debris in areas that your dog can access. Clear off counters and put trash and garbage cans in closets, or use cans with tight-fitting lids.
* If fleas are a problem, use a good, modern form of flea control, such as the easy-to-use topical treatments that include Frontline and K9 Advantix.
* If someone in the house has allergies to animals, the best moves are to see an allergy specialist and to follow practices for reducing the chance of allergic reactions. These include vacuuming, keeping the dog off human furniture, washing hands after touching the dog, etc. You can find free allergy tips on the web.
 
Witz, Suz, I was agreeing with you. I KNOW the rescue organizations would not have such a policy for no good reason. My dogs are inside, and I wouldn't have it any other way! I've never had an "outdoor" dog and wouldn't ever consider it.

My impression is that we've failed in convincing Andy to take another look at her decision. Her last post said "subject closed." My intent was to try to re-open the subject. I feel strongly about this too.

I was trying to invite thought/discussion about why a shelter would refuse adoption to someone wanting an "outdoor" dog--except that it's better for the dogs to wait for an alternate placement.
 
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Fran

Former desparate mom
Andy, I have 3 very large dogs that were adopted from rescue groups. They are indoors most of the time especially in the summer. I don't give them run of the house. They follow me from room to room but they are generally confined to front hallway, kitchen and garage. It keeps the fur to areas that are easily vacuumed. I exercise them twice a day. Once a day in the woods for sure (except in extreme heat). It's a lot of work but they are a breed that needs it. They need to "work".
In our county, it is against the law to tether a dog outside for more than 2 hrs. You will get a fine.
I understand about outside dogs. I never knew that dogs were to stay in the house as I grew up. Everyone's dogs were outside dogs. Since then I have learned that it isn't the best way to raise a dog. Having it with it's pack(us or each other) makes for a more settled, more balanced dog especially while it is a puppy and learning to be attached to it's pack.
Like I said, I didn't know that dogs were supposed to be inside pets but as we learn more, we improve our ways of treating our pets. As it should be.
Good luck and I hope you don't feel attacked. We learned that being outside and alone is not the way to raise a puppy that will be well adjusted.
 

flutterby

Fly away!
My dog's outside time has never been structured. She goes out when she wants to go out - and it's not just to go potty.

Golden's are labs and they don't do well alone. Dogs are pack animals, but labs do worse alone than some other breeds. They tend to have more anxiety. I would never have a lab without having another dog if I was working - or otherwise gone a lot. I think you're going to create a lot of anxiety with this dog, which will create damaging behavior.
 
Golden's are labs and they don't do well alone. Dogs are pack animals, but labs do worse alone than some other breeds. They tend to have more anxiety. I would never have a lab without having another dog if I was working - or otherwise gone a lot.

I had wondered about that. I say I have two standard poodles, but the truth is that I know she is a purebred standard--AKC papers and all--and he was presented as a purebred (no papers), but I have my doubts. I think he's more than half poodle for sure, but I've always wondered if there was a sneaky black lab somewhere in his past.... He has the poodle coat but definitely some lab features. His temperamant is very different from hers, which makes life interesting around here. They balance one another. She's absolutely independent and assertive, and he's completely hen-pecked and dependent on her. Times they've needed to be separated temporarily--like for a vet trip when only one needs to go--he acts completely helpless and pitiful. Every night she cleans up his face before bed as if he were her puppy.

He'd be absolutely LOST by himself. You have me wondering if it's the lab I think is in him, or if it's just the luck of the draw. I've never owned a lab so don't know much about their traits.
 

Star*

call 911........call 911
Get a dog door and a baby gate.

Also - as far as the term 'backyard breeder' - just from my point of view is anyone that isn't raising purebred dogs to show or continue to improve the line or sells their puppies without a contract that states you will spay or neuter your pup so there aren't more unwanted puppies in the world. - Basically someone that just puts 2 dogs together and has a litter of puppies and has NO kennel license. It's not necessarily a slam, it's a description - and an accurate one to those people who have worked in shelters and seen 100's and 1000's of dogs put to sleep every year because people like her (not necessarily her) breed 2 dogs because they want money.

I think the dog door is the answer for your pack. Make sure he has his tags, collar, and an elevated food and water bowl in the (whatever room is the back door to your back yard) and until he's totally potty trained I'd put some newspaper by the back door and take him out like you would any other dog potty training until he starts taking himself out. Once he's potty trained and used to the baby gate? You can take it down as you like and let him be part of the pack when you are ready for him to join you and when you go away and don't want him to run the house, put it back up and he'll be used to it being there. When he's older - you can probably dispense with the gate alltogether because if you put his crate and bedpillow in the crate and cover the crate with a blanket and make it like a den(Cave) and toss all this goodies in there ? hell associate the cave with good things - and go in there on his own to feel safe. NEVER NEVER use the crate for punishment or you will NEVER get him in there. Cave = GOOD. Cave= TREATS. Leave the door open and possibly tie it open for the first few weeks to keep difficult child from playing with it (I"M THE JAILER) and let the pup get used to it. EACH TIME YOU TOSS A TREAT IN THERE? SAY THE WORD BED, PLACE, BLANKEY - whatever.....BUT KEEP IT THE SAME WORD....and you may want to toss in a TSHIRT OF YOURS. NOT difficult child's.....and if he tosses in his shirt ? REMOVE IT. (UGH KIDS ARE SUCH A PAIN)

Another thing - Do NOT encourage the Bichone to go in there - or you will have a fight - that needs to be the new guys haven. ONLY. Also....You may want to sit in front of the cage door the first few times you toss in a cookie and tell him it's okay and talk softly to him. If he doesn't stay in ? It's okay - let him come out the minute he wants to. No biggie. Just keep sitting there with him - he goes in, gets the snack...you've said PLACE....pointed - maybe even snapped your fingers.....he's gone in - you toss the cookie - GOOD BOY....you sit down ----and he crawls over you - THAT"S FINE. Eventually he'll stay. When he does? NO WORDS - just a pet - and get up and leave him a snack - and let him be.

That's how you crate train them. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES SHUT THAT CAGE DOOR UNTIL HE STAYS IN THE CAGE WITH YOU SITTING THERE FOR AT LEAST 4 minutes on his own. THEN SLOWLY SLOWLY SHUT THE DOOR.....STAY THERE..maybe 2 minutes..and then treat......then open and good dog.......then away you go. Increase that each time by a minute....it takes a lot of patience and time. DO NOT RESPOND TO HIS BARKS - DO NOT SHSH him ........just ignore him. He really shouldn't do a thing - give him a treat when you leave with Pnut butter on it - and that should keep his mouth busy.....until you return when you do he gets another treat. TREAT TREAT TREAT. ONLY YOU!!! NOT difficult child.....HUBBY OKAY - BUT NO ONE ELSE.

Hope this helps......and if you decide not to get the doodle and go for a shelter dog? Good for you too!

Congratulations on your new addition, just be sure that this is someone you want for the next 10-15 years. If it is a X-doodle read up on both breeds and their quirks.

Pootie reminds me every day that she does NOT want another mani-pedi - but it's coming. Purple again.

Hugs
Star
 
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