New here, and new grandparent

[dandelion]

Hi there, this is my first time posting, though I've appreciated reading others' posts for some time.

My son is in his early 20s; he and his girlfriend welcomed their first baby earlier this year.

I am not yet 40 years old, I had my son in high school. My son's father has been in and out of jail and prison his entire adult life. I can't diagnose him with anything of course, but I assume he had conduct disorder/ASPD.

When my son was in high school, he went from skipping school to carrying guns within a year. It was crazy how fast his risk-taking escalated. He was involved in robberies and violent crimes, and because of the state and county we live in, there was little we could do. School stopped supporting us pretty quickly, police wouldn't arrest him because he had no record for a long time, therapists were at a loss. Finally, I had one family therapist tell me, "He will likely be diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder when he is grown. All you can do is set boundaries and take care of your other children."

The years between ages 15 and 18 were absolute hell. Phone calls in the middle of the night from police, to come and pick him up. Hoards of stolen goods in his room. Seeing him post photos of him and his friends with guns and stacks of cash on social media. He and his friends would walk into grocery stores, pop cash registers open with screwdrivers, and take the cash. We had access to his social media login and could see where he was about to commit a crime, but if we told police they wouldn't do anything, since they don't do crime prevention. Living like this drove us crazy.

My husband and I built an apartment for him in our backyard (only one room, but with plumbing, a portable washing machine, thermostat heat, microwave and kept his fridge stocked). He refused to flush the toilet and we would have to deal with it every few weeks.

It was absolutely awful. I begged him to let me get him into a mental health facility, he wanted nothing more to do with our family. On the other hand, he told any social worker, cop, or family member who would listen that my husband and I were abusing him, and this is why he was running around with gangs and committing crimes.

I hoped that after some time and space, he would come around and want to repair and reconnect. He has reached out and said as much, but it is usually followed with an all-caps message about how I am a horrible mother and have failed him.

One other difficult factor is that both of my parents have narcissistic (dad) and histrionic (mom) traits, and he will triangulate with them. Recently, my therapist diagnosed me with cPTSD, and I am working on healing and understanding myself.

I understand that having a grandchild is not a reason to put any boundaries aside, but I am so terribly sad that this has happened to our family. Grieving the life and relationship I wanted with my son in his teen and young adult years has gotten easier these past four years, but with the grandbaby out in the world, I am feeling it more intensely.

Posting here because this is the only group that I thought might understand. Thanks for reading.

 

[Crayola13]

I’m sorry your son has given you so much grief over the years. From what you described, he inherited some problematic genes. His dad was in and out of prison. His grandparents have personality disorders. This is a mix of genes that will continue causing problems for future generations. Mental illness and criminal behavior are often hereditary, particularly mental illness. It’s a family curse that can’t be stopped until the bloodline comes to an end.

I hope the new grand baby gets into some kind of early intervention program that may or may not help prevent him from becoming his dad and grandfather. Personality disorders are difficult to treat, even more so than mental illness. It’s so tragic how even behavioral problems and personalities are hereditary. He needs activities, routine, and when he’s old enough, counseling. He needs to understand that his dad and grandfather don’t behave normally and that those behaviors are off-limits. Those messages have to be reinforced over the course of a child’s life. Even then, there is no guarantee the child won’t inherit problematic genes.

I don’t understand not flushing the commode.

It sounds like you’ve had some counseling for yourself. You might want to stick with it because you’re distressed and at your wit’s end. Those kind of stressors can lead to physical ailments. Find activities that are fun or relaxing. Working with crafts or cross-stitching keeps the hands busy, which is very therapeutic for some people.

 

[Nomad]

hello. Welcome. You’ve experienced much trauma and much loss. I’m so sorry. And, whenever grandchildren are involved, it’s always especially difficult.

I’m hoping others with more experience will post soon…but some misc. thoughts I had include:
1. Would your son consider seeing a psychiatrist to get a diagnosis? Would he consider taking medication?
2. Has he had any luck at all holding down any job? Where does he live currently?
3. If he gets a diagnosis AND both you snd more importantly , the doctor, feel he is unable to work….perhaps disability would be something to consider (although the paperwork for that is very difficult).
4. You might at some point make some choices in in what ways you are willing to help and in what ways you won’t, esp since there is a grandchild involved. For example, perhaps some baby clothes and gift cards to the food store. This is just an arbitrary example.
5. Yes…boundaries are crucial.
6. Great that you have had professional support. Having an adult child like this is extraordinarily difficult under any and all circumstances. Be sure to continue if at all possible.

 

[dandelion]

I’m sorry your son has given you so much grief over the years. From what you described, he inherited some problematic genes. His dad was in and out of prison. His grandparents have personality disorders. This is a mix of genes that will continue causing problems for future generations. Mental illness and criminal behavior are often hereditary, particularly mental illness. It’s a family curse that can’t be stopped until the bloodline comes to an end.

I hope the new grand baby gets into some kind of early intervention program that may or may not help prevent him from becoming his dad and grandfather. Personality disorders are difficult to treat, even more so than mental illness. It’s so tragic how even behavioral problems and personalities are hereditary. He needs activities, routine, and when he’s old enough, counseling. He needs to understand that his dad and grandfather don’t behave normally and that those behaviors are off-limits. Those messages have to be reinforced over the course of a child’s life. Even then, there is no guarantee the child won’t inherit problematic genes.

I don’t understand not flushing the commode.

It sounds like you’ve had some counseling for yourself. You might want to stick with it because you’re distressed and at your wit’s end. Those kind of stressors can lead to physical ailments. Find activities that are fun or relaxing. Working with crafts or cross-stitching keeps the hands busy, which is very therapeutic for some people.

Thanks so much for your response. I also hope that the baby will have access to the support they'll need. I do stick with counseling, I'm fortunate to still be seeing the same counselor who was our family therapist. Since she worked with my son, she has been a great source of support.

 

[dandelion]

hello. Welcome. You’ve experienced much trauma and much loss. I’m so sorry. And, whenever grandchildren are involved, it’s always especially difficult.

I’m hoping others with more experience will post soon…but some misc. thoughts I had include:
1. Would your son consider seeing a psychiatrist to get a diagnosis? Would he consider taking medication?
2. Has he had any luck at all holding down any job? Where does he live currently?
3. If he gets a diagnosis AND both you snd more importantly , the doctor, feel he is unable to work….perhaps disability would be something to consider (although the paperwork for that is very difficult).
4. You might at some point make some choices in in what ways you are willing to help and in what ways you won’t, esp since there is a grandchild involved. For example, perhaps some baby clothes and gift cards to the food store. This is just an arbitrary example.
5. Yes…boundaries are crucial.
6. Great that you have had professional support. Having an adult child like this is extraordinarily difficult under any and all circumstances. Be sure to continue if at all possible.

Hi, thank you for your response and sharing your thoughts.

My son did agree to a psychiatric evaluation when he was still living at home with us, but because he was over 13 years old and did not allow me a release of information, I was never allowed to know the results, nor implement any treatment plan. I am not sure if he is open to medications or counseling at this point; as far as I understand, he doesn't have a psychiatric condition that is treatable with medication, unless there is something I am unaware of.

He says that he has been working but I don't know for sure. He lives about 2 hours away from me at this point, and we have had very little contact so I can't vouch for anything he's said.

I am not open to giving him any financial support at this point and he has not asked for any. I am worried that if I start giving gifts or money he'll punish me if I don't give him what he wants, which is how it went when he was living at home.

 

[mindinggaps]

@dandelion - Thank you for sharing your story. You have come to a good place - the people here are very kind and understanding and can relate to your situation with empathy and helpful thoughts. I wanted to chime in with a couple of comments, but from a slightly different angle. I was diagnosed with ODD as a child and while my issues have never been quite as extreme as your son, I have suffered from disruptive and maladjusted behaviors.

I am not sure if he is open to medications or counseling at this point; as far as I understand, he doesn't have a psychiatric condition that is treatable with medication, unless there is something I am unaware of.

Your son almost certainly has a diagnosable psychiatric condition which can likely benefit from therapy and medication. Unfortunately, for people like your son, part of their condition typically involves distrust of doctors, refusal of treatment and failure to comply with medication. However, I do believe his situation could only improve with proper treatment. Realistically though, for his condition, multiple medications would be required and it would take some time to figure out. But there are treatments which can help reduce anger, impulsive behavior, urges to steal, etc. For context, I take a cocktail of medications without which I can become angry, aggressive, impulsive with urges of violence and chaos. However, with treatment, this is kept under control. My guess is that he just never disclosed the results of his psychiatric assessment to you.

I hope the new grand baby gets into some kind of early intervention program that may or may not help prevent him from becoming his dad and grandfather. Personality disorders are difficult to treat, even more so than mental illness. It’s so tragic how even behavioral problems and personalities are hereditary. He needs activities, routine, and when he’s old enough, counseling. He needs to understand that his dad and grandfather don’t behave normally and that those behaviors are off-limits. Those messages have to be reinforced over the course of a child’s life. Even then, there is no guarantee the child won’t inherit problematic genes.

@Crayola13 is exactly correct here. One thing you can do for your grandson is to try to ensure he gets early therapy and intervention as soon as possible to hopefully prevent issues from arising. This of course is very hard to do given that you are not in control. But it is a way to help reduce the likelihood of long term problems. Again, for context, my intervention began at age 5 with therapy and medications. I credit the fact that I am a functional adult today with this.

 

[dandelion]

@dandelion - Thank you for sharing your story. You have come to a good place - the people here are very kind and understanding and can relate to your situation with empathy and helpful thoughts. I wanted to chime in with a couple of comments, but from a slightly different angle. I was diagnosed with ODD as a child and while my issues have never been quite as extreme as your son, I have suffered from disruptive and maladjusted behaviors.


Your son almost certainly has a diagnosable psychiatric condition which can likely benefit from therapy and medication. Unfortunately, for people like your son, part of their condition typically involves distrust of doctors, refusal of treatment and failure to comply with medication. However, I do believe his situation could only improve with proper treatment. Realistically though, for his condition, multiple medications would be required and it would take some time to figure out. But there are treatments which can help reduce anger, impulsive behavior, urges to steal, etc. For context, I take a cocktail of medications without which I can become angry, aggressive, impulsive with urges of violence and chaos. However, with treatment, this is kept under control. My guess is that he just never disclosed the results of his psychiatric assessment to you.



@Crayola13 is exactly correct here. One thing you can do for your grandson is to try to ensure he gets early therapy and intervention as soon as possible to hopefully prevent issues from arising. This of course is very hard to do given that you are not in control. But it is a way to help reduce the likelihood of long term problems. Again, for context, my intervention began at age 5 with therapy and medications. I credit the fact that I am a functional adult today with this.

Thank you so much for your insights, I appreciate you sharing your perspective. You are correct that my son has refused treatment, and wasn't willing to be honest with doctors and therapists, at least in the time that he was living at home and attending therapy. We also had a couple of therapists that had no experience with personality disorders, and were confused and defensive when we brought up what the family therapist said about potential ASPD behavior.

We live in a state where kids over the age of 13 have the right to refuse psychiatric treatment and no medical release is given to the parent without their consent, so yes, he did withhold the results of his psychiatric evaluation that he had as a teenager. Frankly, during that time, I doubt that he answered the questions honestly in the evaluation, he was not seeking help and was in juvenile detention at the time.

I agree that my grandchild would probably benefit from early intervention, but I am not involved in my son nor granddaughter's life at this time, per my son's refusal to communicate with me. I don't even have an address or a phone number for him.

Because my son had a chronic illness, he was in therapy very young, but I don't think anyone was thinking about ODD or any kind of behavioral issues at that time, though in hindsight there were some signs early on. At that age, you can't know until years later whether those early signs are actually indicative of ODD/ASPD or something they'll grow out of.

I am glad to hear that early intervention was helpful for you, it's wonderful that you have been able to change course and live a functional adult life.

 

[mindinggaps]

@dandelion It sounds like you've really done the best you possibly can for you son and you should not fault yourself for his challenges. Likewise, since you don't have contact with your grandchild, there is only so much you can do. As others have mentioned, it is important that you take care of yourself.

Remember, your son is ultimately an adult responsible for his actions - unless he is willing to accept treatment and be honest about his situation, little can be done. Deceiving doctors, refusing treatment, lying about diagnoses and manipulating health care providers are all part of his condition. I have been through this myself and it is very hard to gain control once things spiral to a certain level. You have done what you can for him and been a positive support in his life.

I hope others can continue to provide some support and guidance.

 

[dandelion]

@dandelion It sounds like you've really done the best you possibly can for you son and you should not fault yourself for his challenges. Likewise, since you don't have contact with your grandchild, there is only so much you can do. As others have mentioned, it is important that you take care of yourself.

Remember, your son is ultimately an adult responsible for his actions - unless he is willing to accept treatment and be honest about his situation, little can be done. Deceiving doctors, refusing treatment, lying about diagnoses and manipulating health care providers are all part of his condition. I have been through this myself and it is very hard to gain control once things spiral to a certain level. You have done what you can for him and been a positive support in his life.

I hope others can continue to provide some support and guidance.

Thank you so much.

 

[Tiredof33]

Congrats on the new baby. I hope the best for your relationship with your grandchild. Your son is young so he may decide to get the help he needs. I hope so. Some will not understand, but I'm relieved my son has no children. My son just turned 44 years old. He has been difficult for sure. He also started acting out at an early age too and I have had him in so many programs. He was recently admitted to a behavior center for the weekend on his birthday. Drugs and alcohol combo. He found a sober living house, I paid for. Constant gimmi money, which I did. I checked, he's not there. Lasted about 3 days! Lies, lies, more lies. I've been through this many, many years, but I would be lying too if I did not admit the hope, the heartbreak. AGAIN! I confronted him and as always a well spun fictional story. He's no contact with me, which is a good thing right now.

 

[dandelion]

Congrats on the new baby. I hope the best for your relationship with your grandchild. Your son is young so he may decide to get the help he needs. I hope so. Some will not understand, but I'm relieved my son has no children. My son just turned 44 years old. He has been difficult for sure. He also started acting out at an early age too and I have had him in so many programs. He was recently admitted to a behavior center for the weekend on his birthday. Drugs and alcohol combo. He found a sober living house, I paid for. Constant gimmi money, which I did. I checked, he's not there. Lasted about 3 days! Lies, lies, more lies. I've been through this many, many years, but I would be lying too if I did not admit the hope, the heartbreak. AGAIN! I confronted him and as always a well spun fictional story. He's no contact with me, which is a good thing right now.

Thank you so much for sharing your story. I am so sorry to hear that you have been living with this pain and stress for so long.

It sounds like you did a lot to try and help your son, getting him into different programs even recently. I hope you were able to find some rest during this no contact time.

 

[New Leaf]

Hi Dandelion,
Welcome and so sorry for your need to be here. I’m also sorry for your struggles with your son. You have given him many opportunities to receive help and unfortunately, as for many of us here, that does come down to what his choices are as an adult, and finding a healthy balance for your own life and future.

I hoped that after some time and space, he would come around and want to repair and reconnect. He has reached out and said as much, but it is usually followed with an all-caps message about how I am a horrible mother and have failed him.

I’m so sorry Dande. It is somewhat similar in my case. Sparse attempts for connection and the “It”s all your fault” declaration. I have come to the conclusion that whether it be mental illness, addiction or a combination, the propensity to project and blame loved ones is designed to keep us second guessing ourselves, fear outcomes, feel obligated to “help” and be engulfed with guilt at mistakes we made along the way. It keeps us in a numb state, easier to manipulate. It sounds like you have navigated through this “fog” and have set boundaries. Good.

I understand that having a grandchild is not a reason to put any boundaries aside, but I am so terribly sad that this has happened to our family. Grieving the life and relationship I wanted with my son in his teen and young adult years has gotten easier these past four years, but with the grandbaby out in the world, I am feeling it more intensely.

Oh boy. Grandchildren. I know how this feels, it’s hard incredibly hard. I am sorry for the pain of it. Late hubs and I were deep in the trenches with our three grands, while their parents wrestled with their addiction, it was awful.

I'm fortunate to still be seeing the same counselor who was our family therapist. Since she worked with my son, she has been a great source of support.

I’m glad you are receiving help. This will be especially important while processing your emotional health with a grandchild involved.

He lives about 2 hours away from me at this point, and we have had very little contact so I can't vouch for anything he's said.

Sometime not knowing is better, other times it’s hard. Please continue to take good care of yourself.

It sounds like you've really done the best you possibly can for you son and you should not fault yourself for his challenges. Likewise, since you don't have contact with your grandchild, there is only so much you can do. As others have mentioned, it is important that you take care of yourself.

I agree whole heartedly. Perhaps in time things will change and you will have more contact? Other than that hope, is it possible to occasionally be able to send gifts for your grand baby? If not, maybe keep a momento box for her, where you can write little notes, if that would ease your pain. I’m so sorry Dandelion that you are going through this. It is tough enough to deal with our adult children going wayward, grands in the mix adds another challenge to working through our feelings.
Wishing you strength and peace
(((Hugs)))
New Leaf

 

[Tiredof33]

Dandelion I hope you'vd had a chance to relax the last few days. I too married young & hubby showed so many troubling signs I was not mature to recognize. The marriage was an abusive nightmare. I could not get rid of him & I knew if the relationship continued my husband would kill me.
This was during the 70's when I had to have hubby cosign for a furniture loan coming from my paycheck, my credit union. I had almost 8 years employment but women had very few rights. My church pastor told me to stay in the marriage, I was the glue holding the fam together & hubby would out grow his alcohol, drugs, other women.
He finally left for 2 years & when my he wanted to come back I said no. Kids let him in, he tried to kill me, all male police still would not make him leave. I called the state's attorney's office & finally got help. Hubby pulled a knife on police & was arrested. All in front of my young son. Hubby called me from jail collect. I refused the call, but he was out of jail soon. Life was h*ll!
I blamed myself for all of the trouble my son got into. My poor choices hurt us all. No gov help back then & I was one of the working poor. No support ever with the kids.
We all have done the best we could with what we had. Mdy son loves sympathy & pity parties. I apologized man years ago & I have finally let the guilt go.
I know plenty of people from group therapies that have turned their lives around & had great jobs & great kids.
If they want it they will find a way.
It is not you fault, none of us are perfect!!
(((HUGS)))

 

[dandelion]

Hi Dandelion,
Welcome and so sorry for your need to be here. I’m also sorry for your struggles with your son. You have given him many opportunities to receive help and unfortunately, as for many of us here, that does come down to what his choices are as an adult, and finding a healthy balance for your own life and future.

I’m so sorry Dande. It is somewhat similar in my case. Sparse attempts for connection and the “It”s all your fault” declaration. I have come to the conclusion that whether it be mental illness, addiction or a combination, the propensity to project and blame loved ones is designed to keep us second guessing ourselves, fear outcomes, feel obligated to “help” and be engulfed with guilt at mistakes we made along the way. It keeps us in a numb state, easier to manipulate. It sounds like you have navigated through this “fog” and have set boundaries. Good.

Oh boy. Grandchildren. I know how this feels, it’s hard incredibly hard. I am sorry for the pain of it. Late hubs and I were deep in the trenches with our three grands, while their parents wrestled with their addiction, it was awful.

I’m glad you are receiving help. This will be especially important while processing your emotional health with a grandchild involved.

Sometime not knowing is better, other times it’s hard. Please continue to take good care of yourself.

I agree whole heartedly. Perhaps in time things will change and you will have more contact? Other than that hope, is it possible to occasionally be able to send gifts for your grand baby? If not, maybe keep a momento box for her, where you can write little notes, if that would ease your pain. I’m so sorry Dandelion that you are going through this. It is tough enough to deal with our adult children going wayward, grands in the mix adds another challenge to working through our feelings.
Wishing you strength and peace
(((Hugs)))
New Leaf

Hey New Leaf, thank you so much for your thoughtful response. I hadn't thought of a keepsake box for grandbaby, and I really like that idea. Thank you.

 

[dandelion]

Dandelion I hope you'vd had a chance to relax the last few days. I too married young & hubby showed so many troubling signs I was not mature to recognize. The marriage was an abusive nightmare. I could not get rid of him & I knew if the relationship continued my husband would kill me.
This was during the 70's when I had to have hubby cosign for a furniture loan coming from my paycheck, my credit union. I had almost 8 years employment but women had very few rights. My church pastor told me to stay in the marriage, I was the glue holding the fam together & hubby would out grow his alcohol, drugs, other women.
He finally left for 2 years & when my he wanted to come back I said no. Kids let him in, he tried to kill me, all male police still would not make him leave. I called the state's attorney's office & finally got help. Hubby pulled a knife on police & was arrested. All in front of my young son. Hubby called me from jail collect. I refused the call, but he was out of jail soon. Life was h*ll!
I blamed myself for all of the trouble my son got into. My poor choices hurt us all. No gov help back then & I was one of the working poor. No support ever with the kids.
We all have done the best we could with what we had. Mdy son loves sympathy & pity parties. I apologized man years ago & I have finally let the guilt go.
I know plenty of people from group therapies that have turned their lives around & had great jobs & great kids.
If they want it they will find a way.
It is not you fault, none of us are perfect!!
(((HUGS)))

Hi Tiredof33, thank you for sharing your story. I can relate to having a violent partner; your story reminds me much of my son's father. I'd kept him out of my son's life since the age of 2, hoping that not being exposed to him wouldn't repeat the pattern. Bio father still pops up from time to time, leaving me the same message he's been leaving on my voicemail for 20 years: he's in treatment and wants to reconcile. I haven't spoken to him in years.

Thanks again for sharing and connecting here. I am really grateful to find this community, it's so hard to talk about these things with anyone who hasn't been through it.

 

[elizabrary]

Hi Dandelion- How well I know what you are going through. I kicked my daughter out when she was 19 and had an infant. I had many, many sleepless nights worrying about the baby. Until she was about 6 their life was very unstable. My daughter and granddaughter were in and out of my life during those years. When my daughter was being insane I had to cut them off and it was so very difficult because I worried about my granddaughter and she and I have always been close. The good news it that my daughter has turned her life around, has a wonderful job, and is in law school. However, I still worry about how those early years affected my granddaughter, who at this point is an absolute delight.

For you I hope the child's mother is in a better place. I called CPS on my own daughter numerous times, which was also horrible. I can tell you because my granddaughter was shifted around so much in her early years she is an extremely adaptable kid. She makes friends easily and is very resilient. I try to always find the good in a bad situation. I know the pain and fear you are feeling and I wish I could do something to help you. Please be extra kind to yourself and spend this time investing in you. I had to really work to develop and maintain my peace of mind while I was going through all of this with my daughter. Sending peace to you.