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HaoZi
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Asperger's is currently separate from autism but will be lumped into Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) when the new DSM comes out.
Son is totally out of control
- Thread starter ready2run
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buddy
New Member
Thanks HaoZi, so really the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) overall umbrella category (with autism and aspergers, etc. as separate subcategories) will be called Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). Just like the schools. I wonder what they are doing with Rett? I am curious now and will read again, it was a while ago. My dear neighbor died of this. It is a degenerative genetic brain disease. The behaviors can fit on the spectrum, but certainly it is a separate medical condition...wonder where that goes, can't imagine it being just collapsed into Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). Maybe never should have been part of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) in the first place, there are lots of neurological illnesses that make kids look autistic. well, that is off topic, sorry.
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HaoZi
Guest
Not sure on Rett, but when Kiddo was diagnosis'd the doctor was really nice and wrote her report out to be certain that she was covered under the current and upcoming DSM without question.
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HaoZi
Guest
There's still a lot of educating the masses to do. Her psychiatrist didn't want to test her for Asperger's because "she's too smart to be autistic." This is the response I got from a neuropsychologist. Outside of the psychologist that finally did the testing for her and the genetics doctor, I have been seriously UNimpressed with docs of all stripes here.
Buddy....I could be wrong but from what I read IQ is one of the main diagnostic differences between AS and classic autism....Yes, maybe the wording is different in RSA....The current trend is to not just see a linear spectrum but a cylindric one, even putting all kinds of stuff like ADD, ADHD and so on on there somewhere!...I know this is outside the DSM IV.....but the therapists is starting to head in that kind of thinking direction!
Actually in RSA diagnosis doesn't mean so much, just to give therapy direction and medications....we don't have ANY help from goverment/schools/ services or anything. We go to psychiatrist, PAY cash...then you are kicked out in the cold and you try and fight your own way open choosing between therapists, talking to teachers, exct.!!!And you PAY....medical aid will help a bit.....
Actually in RSA diagnosis doesn't mean so much, just to give therapy direction and medications....we don't have ANY help from goverment/schools/ services or anything. We go to psychiatrist, PAY cash...then you are kicked out in the cold and you try and fight your own way open choosing between therapists, talking to teachers, exct.!!!And you PAY....medical aid will help a bit.....
buddy
New Member
Well, yes it is mentioned... but it is not the thing that decides diagnostic category. There does not have to be any IQ test to diagnose Asperger's or Autism. The scores can reinforce a diagnosis in some people's opinion. You will not likely find someone with Aspergers who has a low IQ (unless they refuse to cooperate on testing, or their deficits make it so they can't test well...and that DOES happen).
But there are kids with Autism who have higher IQ's and do not meet criteria for Asperger's. There is a large percentage of children with Autism also fall in a low IQ range (of course IQ testing is controversial for any use in populations with many diagnoses, big issue in the deaf/hard of hearing world and also with Autism, CP, etc.... ). But many fall within average ranges or even above average. A symptom that is used to distinguish Asperger's from Autism is whether there was a speech/language delay. Now there are many articles questioning that because there are kids who fit everything about Aspergers except that ONE thing. That is why for many it will be good to have it be just looked at as a spectrum.
Here is an article about IQ testing and autism
Autistic Children and IQ Tests
Here is another:
But there are kids with Autism who have higher IQ's and do not meet criteria for Asperger's. There is a large percentage of children with Autism also fall in a low IQ range (of course IQ testing is controversial for any use in populations with many diagnoses, big issue in the deaf/hard of hearing world and also with Autism, CP, etc.... ). But many fall within average ranges or even above average. A symptom that is used to distinguish Asperger's from Autism is whether there was a speech/language delay. Now there are many articles questioning that because there are kids who fit everything about Aspergers except that ONE thing. That is why for many it will be good to have it be just looked at as a spectrum.
Here is an article about IQ testing and autism
Autistic Children and IQ Tests
Here is another:
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Thanx Buddy for this....I have never thought about it that testing the IQ of autistic might be influenced by all this! But it's actually obvious?! Very insightfull! My son had the speech assessment 2 weeks ago....His age is 8.3 yr...his receptive language tested 11.3yr and his expressive 5yr!!!!!
buddy
New Member
Sure, it just has been so relevant to many children I work with and of course my own son that I have done some extra thinking and education about it.
Certainly not an IQ expert, but I am interested.
The language testing pretty much sounds like it supports what you are finding right? What is interesting to me... I have never once in a report (nor any of the people in settings where I have worked) put age equivalents (unless those were required norms to use, very rare) nor grade equivalents. Did we discuss them informally? of course. But never have written them down. I guess it is for many of the standardized testing concerns discussed before.... including that some people may limit a child or treat them at that age/grade. Where I come from we usually use percentiles (comparing to same age peers). I know some psychologists who put every kind of score, that is just overkill to me, lol. Just interesting how different places do different things. Of course, there is absolutely nothing wrong with age norms at all. It all comes from the same standard scores. And, I think it can be really helpful in some ways because it is something really relate-able ( we can guess how much a child of 5 versus a child of 11 would understand... so expectations can be adjusted). How did you feel about the results. Do you think it reflects real life? Sounds like the discrepancy supports your overall view of things. ???
Certainly not an IQ expert, but I am interested.
The language testing pretty much sounds like it supports what you are finding right? What is interesting to me... I have never once in a report (nor any of the people in settings where I have worked) put age equivalents (unless those were required norms to use, very rare) nor grade equivalents. Did we discuss them informally? of course. But never have written them down. I guess it is for many of the standardized testing concerns discussed before.... including that some people may limit a child or treat them at that age/grade. Where I come from we usually use percentiles (comparing to same age peers). I know some psychologists who put every kind of score, that is just overkill to me, lol. Just interesting how different places do different things. Of course, there is absolutely nothing wrong with age norms at all. It all comes from the same standard scores. And, I think it can be really helpful in some ways because it is something really relate-able ( we can guess how much a child of 5 versus a child of 11 would understand... so expectations can be adjusted). How did you feel about the results. Do you think it reflects real life? Sounds like the discrepancy supports your overall view of things. ???
ready2run
New Member
my difficult child's scores are usually given on his write ups in both age and percentile. i find it helpful a bit because i can adjust some things and see where i am expecting too much. sometimes it's way off though and i know that he probably just gave the wrong answers on purpose as he does that when he's decided he's done.
buddy
New Member
Ready, that is something my son does too. People thought I was making up excuses for him at the middle school until they went to do the 3 year re-evaluation. Guess how many tests don't have final cummulative scores? I don't get too excited about testing in general. It is a great start to things, to help get a diagnosis etc. the real info comes from daily life, data from the therapy done and school work (of course AFTER a correct diagnosis is obtained...not saying it is not important to use testing for that, just that if it doesn't "feel" right when you see the scores...it probably is not right, so many factors with a difficult child)
for several years I would watch standard testing for Q and when I saw him quit I would ask the tester... UMMM were you trying to make him draw a cross (or x) and it was always the same...yup. Of course he COULD write his name... which has a t in it. Just from an early age had a battle once with an Occupational Therapist (OT) over imitating that and for a long long time he refused in that kind of a setting. THAT is when I knew I was in big big trouble with how stuck he got and how rigid he was depending on the environment.
for several years I would watch standard testing for Q and when I saw him quit I would ask the tester... UMMM were you trying to make him draw a cross (or x) and it was always the same...yup. Of course he COULD write his name... which has a t in it. Just from an early age had a battle once with an Occupational Therapist (OT) over imitating that and for a long long time he refused in that kind of a setting. THAT is when I knew I was in big big trouble with how stuck he got and how rigid he was depending on the environment.
I didn't expect the difference to be that big in the testing scores....but it does make alot of sence and as she explained...he is a very bright child with the language knowledge of 11 y but is SO frustrated with his own disabbility of expressing it...How it made me feel?
I was a bit worried...especially when she said that if he doesn't get intervention now he will really start picking up problems to cope in grade 4! Why this made me worried: Because as you and Ready said....he already feels negative towards therapy because of the boring evaluation and stress...so he doesn't really want to go back! Yes his attitude could have played a role....during the first assessment session he was very aggitated and even walked out and said he is going now.....during the second session he was alert, bright and willing!
What the scores ment to me.....it helped my MOM to 'get it'! After I told her this huge difference she was like....: "ok, so he is not retarded....so what causes this? It must be something in his brain that's not working that well?" Yip.....it's NEUROLOGICAL!!!!!
The thing that's so frustrating...is that if you look and listen to him.....he sounds FINE! But like when he is frustrated or sad he will start swearing and so on and I guess this is because he doesn't have other ways to express his feelings...but outsiders only see: Rude and manipulative!
I was a bit worried...especially when she said that if he doesn't get intervention now he will really start picking up problems to cope in grade 4! Why this made me worried: Because as you and Ready said....he already feels negative towards therapy because of the boring evaluation and stress...so he doesn't really want to go back! Yes his attitude could have played a role....during the first assessment session he was very aggitated and even walked out and said he is going now.....during the second session he was alert, bright and willing!
What the scores ment to me.....it helped my MOM to 'get it'! After I told her this huge difference she was like....: "ok, so he is not retarded....so what causes this? It must be something in his brain that's not working that well?" Yip.....it's NEUROLOGICAL!!!!!
The thing that's so frustrating...is that if you look and listen to him.....he sounds FINE! But like when he is frustrated or sad he will start swearing and so on and I guess this is because he doesn't have other ways to express his feelings...but outsiders only see: Rude and manipulative!
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HaoZi
Guest
lovelyboy, has anyone suggested art therapy for him?
buddy
New Member
Well, your life and mine overlap so much. Really can relate to so much of what you are saying....
1. yes, can you imagine having so much to express and the areas of your brain that allow you to retrieve information, put ideas together, pick vocabulary, formulate a sentence then execute the sentence could all have issues to some degree, and those things add up and complicate eachvother and this is all happening during an event that normally is automatic and immediate for people. Of course they choose then to go to their automatic behaviors and phrases. To say whatever will just end this now. Or just say things that will allow them to desperately get what they want or need. For some it just gets frustrating to not be able to fully be involved so they just give up. And you are so right, doing therapy with these kids is way more than just trying to help work on the underlying skill issues, it is trying to overcome the emotional complications/frustrations etc. I truly don't think that other staff who work with kids realize the importance of language therapy for these students (I can't tell you how many times I was not invited to a meeting because it was thought to be "just speech") Even kids who have "only" a language disability have a horrible disadvantage in life. Just is really hard to convince people how much this affects them. In the school you wont have a choice of therapists, though whoever you had assess him seems to really understand. He needs therapists who are not locked into flashcards, etc. Someone who can work on a goal using whatever method appeals to difficult child, playing games, casual conversation, art, music, whatever works. Q lost a whole year of language progress with a very rigid, worksheet/flash card therapist last year. That does not match his Kindergarten style of learning.
2. Funny that a language disability is more neurological to your mom than being mentally retarded, lol. But it is fine, whatever allows her to see the big picture. My dad didn't get it until I asked him to sit in on an IEP at a school that was really lying to me and treating me rudely when Q was in first grade. I said he didn't have to know anything or say anything, just sit there as a witness. From then on he felt like an expert in autism,lol. HE would defend and explain to anyone anywhere. Made me a little crazy that he didn't get it from my communication, but I am not an expert mom/speech pathologist to him, I am just his kid.
3. Yes, in fourth grade the language level in texts, socially, in teaching etc. all changes (some in third too, and certainly by fifth). For language and social communication kids, this is a huge problem and where lots of behavior problems increase. This is the point where many kids who are really kids with autism start getting diagnosed. The communication aspects become so much more dramatic that people see it is not just adhd/odd types of behaviors. It will not only be the therapy that will be important, it will be the education of those who work with him and the accommodations for his skill deficits that will be very very important.
4. The one that is hardest..... Having people write off your child as a rude, disrespectful troublemaker. The story of my life. Tonight my son, after having his seizure symptom pattern (which is not obvious to people who dont understand, just looks like he gets tired or has headaches) was lying on my father's couch during a family get together. People were in the room he was in playing games an talking (which is a trigger for him to blurt out in the first place, irrelevant comments, just trying to be a part of things). I went to give him his medications and it was like it woke him to a different level and he grabbed them roughly, started saying every word or phrase that is shocking, all in random crazy order not making any sense in the situaiton (he had not been told no to anything, he was taking the medications fine, not complaining about THAT, just seemed very very automatic) he was angry sounding and looking, threw the water he had in the cup (My dad and his wife are pretty much neat freaks) then he started spitting....the nasty kind, hocking loogies I think they call it...sigh) One sister got caught up....Q you need to stop...of course it escalated at that point. the rest of us just got our things (it was about that time anyway which is harder...a transition) and I let my dad and murt clean up with no apologies (I will thank them later, but he would have reacted) and went out to the car knowing he would follow (that's it he wasn't really being uncooperative, just could not stop). ON the ride home.... it just continued, didn't escalate, just kept on stuck in those words and phrases...and spitting at me the whole way home. Since I had given the medications, it was starting to calm down, in the house he decided to take a bath and it all just faded away.
Try to get any school anywhere to realize this is not a rude child with a bad mother. I defy any non difficult child "good mother" to handle that how I did. I suspect this kid would have been black and blue and still doing it at this moment due to people escalating him. Not bragging, just letting you know that I get it, we are good parents and our kids are not just "bad" kids. It is so heart breaking that this is how it is playing out for them. I have a friend with a child in a wheel chair that said she would much rather deal with all of the physical complications. Her daughter is perceived as a sweet little special needs kid. There is not the added social stigma put on her from the school and public. I agree.
5. When kids sound "fine" until those moments. Their language choices stay with what they know, and what is easy to get out. So, their abilities are not pushed at those times. They will artfully avoid or redirect or just talk off topic. Or they will control the topic by starting their own conversations and not allowing the conversation to take a turn for something different. They come up with ingenious methods, not consciously, just coping skills they learn to do for survival. People tend to WAY over-estimate a child's abilities due to this. It is really hard to deal with because you are not going to go around telling every single person what the real reason they are acting this way is. But it is a good skill to have for the most part. It will allow them to get by in most casual situations.
SO, you know now. It is amazing and you can help him work toward more functional skills. I dont know if you have the opportunity, but for us, we have done private along with school speech/language therapy. I am starting him again. When you shop for a therapist, ask how they do therapy. See if they are play based, or whatever you think matches your child's style. No matter the style, they have to be able to work on a goal in more than one way. They have to be flexible and be able to switch methods on the spot. If you see a pattern of same old same old when your child is in therapy IF they are not making progress....then ask for a different therapist who can match his learning style better. Everyone has kids they click with and kids they dont. by the way, I always tell them my child is likely to call them a Nword bword etc... I tell them that I need a therapist who will not over-react and who will not take it personally. Some say they will and dont, that is understandable because it is shocking to be called those things, but some wont ever try.... so I feel like it is worth getting it on record so they can't say they didn't know and I can say i warned you....smile
Hope you dont mind my little soap box here, your situation and your son really touched me.
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HaoZi
Guest
Even if you can't find someone that does art therapy, when he loses his words encourage him to draw what he feels, even if it's just picking a color that matches his mood (to him) and scribbling. Set up an area for him to draw if he doesn't have one already and when things get hairy, just say "Draw it out for me." If he doesn't carry his art stuff with him it wouldn't hurt to keep a notebook and pencil or crayons in your purse so it's always available.
I agree Buddy...there does seem to be alot in common!
The speech therapist is bussy doing her post graduate on AS...and works mostly with them...The therapist who assessed him was referred to by the psychiatrist, because she did her masters in social skill training. She seems very good, but I knew from the beginning she was to loud...laughing out loud and abruptly...this confusses my son! Luckily she can't see him so she asked the other therapist at the practice to see him. This therapist works mostly with AS and she seems very gentle (but luckily not in the mothering way....my son don't like the cuddling type!)....she speaks in soft tone of voice and looks relaxed!
Hope this will work out! Interestingly the ST thought it would be a good idea to give my son some kind of device like earplugs to put in his ears in class, wich will amplify the teachers voice and cut out background noise? He is very excited.....don't know if any one tried this before?
Something to smile at!: The other day my son couldn't get smarties in the shop, so he said out loud...oh sh*t! The old lady looked shocked and I told him to appologize to her.....he felt very bad! So I told him this is why at home I encouraged him not to swear....He then accused ME for his fault because he said I only told him not to swear at home and never told him not to swear in public! OMW!!!!
The speech therapist is bussy doing her post graduate on AS...and works mostly with them...The therapist who assessed him was referred to by the psychiatrist, because she did her masters in social skill training. She seems very good, but I knew from the beginning she was to loud...laughing out loud and abruptly...this confusses my son! Luckily she can't see him so she asked the other therapist at the practice to see him. This therapist works mostly with AS and she seems very gentle (but luckily not in the mothering way....my son don't like the cuddling type!)....she speaks in soft tone of voice and looks relaxed!
Hope this will work out! Interestingly the ST thought it would be a good idea to give my son some kind of device like earplugs to put in his ears in class, wich will amplify the teachers voice and cut out background noise? He is very excited.....don't know if any one tried this before?
Something to smile at!: The other day my son couldn't get smarties in the shop, so he said out loud...oh sh*t! The old lady looked shocked and I told him to appologize to her.....he felt very bad! So I told him this is why at home I encouraged him not to swear....He then accused ME for his fault because he said I only told him not to swear at home and never told him not to swear in public! OMW!!!!
buddy
New Member
LOL. Good then, now you have told him so he will NEVER do it again, I am sure (wink).
The system you are talking about is an FM system (there are other names depending on the type of signal). They even have them wiithout the ear phones, kind of like a dedicated FM hearing aid but those are very expensive. Kids who are actually hard of hearing/deaf have either an attachment to the aid or have aids that have the mechanism built in. Research on this is VERY good. There are whole districts that are now building sound field systems (so the whole class, library, auditorium) has speakers that send out the voice of the teacher or student who is taking a turn talking at a 20 to 40 dB level louder than the noise in the room. Districts that have done this have had standardized test scores increase. So for an individual, they wear headphones of some sort that can receive a signal from the microphone that the teacher is wearing. It will be beneficial if there are two microphones. So, when kids are taking turns talking or asking questions in a class, the teacher can pass a microphone to the person who is talking. When these systems are used in whole classes, kids learn to take turns better because they dont talk unless they have the mic. And no one knows who is being targeted for needing the system when it is used with speakers. One fellow Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) got the PTA to fund this for one class in each grade. Kids on the spectrum with language issues, adhd kids, etc. were put in those classes if possible. The teachers chose to be in those classes. It was really fantastic to see. I am truly impressed with your person for advocating for that and if you can get it DO it. IN fact, I will re-initiate this with Q. He has had such small groups it has faded away, but if we get him used to it again, we can then branch out.
The system you are talking about is an FM system (there are other names depending on the type of signal). They even have them wiithout the ear phones, kind of like a dedicated FM hearing aid but those are very expensive. Kids who are actually hard of hearing/deaf have either an attachment to the aid or have aids that have the mechanism built in. Research on this is VERY good. There are whole districts that are now building sound field systems (so the whole class, library, auditorium) has speakers that send out the voice of the teacher or student who is taking a turn talking at a 20 to 40 dB level louder than the noise in the room. Districts that have done this have had standardized test scores increase. So for an individual, they wear headphones of some sort that can receive a signal from the microphone that the teacher is wearing. It will be beneficial if there are two microphones. So, when kids are taking turns talking or asking questions in a class, the teacher can pass a microphone to the person who is talking. When these systems are used in whole classes, kids learn to take turns better because they dont talk unless they have the mic. And no one knows who is being targeted for needing the system when it is used with speakers. One fellow Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) got the PTA to fund this for one class in each grade. Kids on the spectrum with language issues, adhd kids, etc. were put in those classes if possible. The teachers chose to be in those classes. It was really fantastic to see. I am truly impressed with your person for advocating for that and if you can get it DO it. IN fact, I will re-initiate this with Q. He has had such small groups it has faded away, but if we get him used to it again, we can then branch out.
buddy
New Member
http://www.audiologyonline.com/
Frequency Modulation Systems for children with normal hearing.
http://www.tecear.com/
Frequency Modulation Systems for children with normal hearing.
http://www.tecear.com/
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