smallworld
Moderator
Previous posters asked about heading off personality disorders. At age 16, my son was diagnosed with an emergent Avoidant Personality Disorder (which is in the DSM-IV). He was severely depressed, socially withdrawn, academically underachieving and therapy resistant. Because we were bumping up against the time when he could refuse treatment, we decided to send him to a wilderness program followed by a residential treatment center. Today he is no longer depressed, he is engaged in academics and therapy, he has friends and plans for the future. Had we not taken this drastic step of 24/7 intensive treatment, I believe that my son was destined for a life of avoidance and shutdown.
S
stressedoutmama
Guest
WOW, I think that is pretty awesome!
Marguerite
Active Member
I think the important message - use what information you can get, actively intervene (even if that means choosing to take a step back from heavy control - that is also a valid active intervention) and have hope. And where possible, change your mindset towards your child - in other words, do not let the ODD tag become "he is deliberately choosing to be a problem kid" because then your resentment will make things worse.
Is ODD an early warning of personality disorders? Maybe in some cases, but I doubt it would be the majority of ODD. And I doubt all personality disorders have ODD as childhood manifestations.
I know a few adults who I believe really fit the criteria of various personality disorders. In those cases where I have some insight to their childhood, I can see possible causative factors. Or contributing factors. In one, I remember her childhood and yes, definitely ODD. But in my opinion, definitely caused by her environment, with some milder innate predisposing hereditary issues. Better handling in childhood would have reduced the problems; but as an adult she is still maturing and increasingly the personality disorders are submerging. Life experiences can either begin to resolve these problems, or they can allow them to perpetuate.
As parents, we do what we can, and have to accept the rest. What more can you do?
Marg
Is ODD an early warning of personality disorders? Maybe in some cases, but I doubt it would be the majority of ODD. And I doubt all personality disorders have ODD as childhood manifestations.
I know a few adults who I believe really fit the criteria of various personality disorders. In those cases where I have some insight to their childhood, I can see possible causative factors. Or contributing factors. In one, I remember her childhood and yes, definitely ODD. But in my opinion, definitely caused by her environment, with some milder innate predisposing hereditary issues. Better handling in childhood would have reduced the problems; but as an adult she is still maturing and increasingly the personality disorders are submerging. Life experiences can either begin to resolve these problems, or they can allow them to perpetuate.
As parents, we do what we can, and have to accept the rest. What more can you do?
Marg
smallworld
Moderator
My son, by the way, did not have an ODD diagnosis. He has always had a diagnosis of mood disorder.
W
WearyWoman
Guest
I understand what you're saying about the ODD stuff. Honestly, I think it's a mystery yet as to the origins of ODD behaviors. So much more research is needed in the area of disruptive behavior disorders. When a child presents with such strong and unusual characteristics at a very young age that persist throughout childhood and beyond, one must certainly tentatively conclude that there is a biological basis for the behavior problems.
Both of our boys have ADHD and ODD symptoms. The symptoms have been present from birth in the form of difficulty with activity level, sleep-wake schedules, colic, agitation, and difficulty with self regulation. ODD does seem to accompany other comorbid conditions, but in all cases? Maybe not. However, I am still convinced that persistent symptoms throughout infancy, childhood, the teen years, and beyond, certainly point to a biological component.
Maybe someday we'll learn more detailed information about brain development and behavior disorders. The problem is that society fails to acknowledge the influence of brain disorders on behavior in so many cases. People seem much quicker to point a finger at parents and discipline issues than to consider the impact of neurological differences on behavior.
Regardless of whether ODD is a standalone condtion or not, I believe there is always hope.
In cases where another disorder can be identified, medications for that disorder may ease the ODD symptoms. Both of my boys have ADHD, and the ADHD medications definitely curb the ODD symptoms to some extent (not completely, by any means).
My younger son has an autism spectrum disorder, and he recently started taking Intuniv, which seems to act as a mood stabilizer in children. It does help. Again, nothing is really a "magic bullet".
If I were you, I would start tracking your child's symptoms in a journal. Note the dates and times of the disruptive behaviors, along with any precursors or situational factors, such as setting, foods, sleep, and people involved. Eventually, you can analyze it for patterns, and maybe it will even open doors to the details of his behaviors you hadn't considered previously.
Consider a full neuro-psychiatric evaluation by a team of professionals. They should look for developmental and medical causes, mood disorders, ADHD, sensory integration issues, allergies, and autism spectrum disorders. The sooner you get some sort of intervention, the better. We're presently getting our youngest son in-home autism therapy services, and it does help to have someone other than Mom and Dad do everything.
I understand your situation. I hope you find some answers.
(((hugs)))
Both of our boys have ADHD and ODD symptoms. The symptoms have been present from birth in the form of difficulty with activity level, sleep-wake schedules, colic, agitation, and difficulty with self regulation. ODD does seem to accompany other comorbid conditions, but in all cases? Maybe not. However, I am still convinced that persistent symptoms throughout infancy, childhood, the teen years, and beyond, certainly point to a biological component.
Maybe someday we'll learn more detailed information about brain development and behavior disorders. The problem is that society fails to acknowledge the influence of brain disorders on behavior in so many cases. People seem much quicker to point a finger at parents and discipline issues than to consider the impact of neurological differences on behavior.
Regardless of whether ODD is a standalone condtion or not, I believe there is always hope.
In cases where another disorder can be identified, medications for that disorder may ease the ODD symptoms. Both of my boys have ADHD, and the ADHD medications definitely curb the ODD symptoms to some extent (not completely, by any means).
My younger son has an autism spectrum disorder, and he recently started taking Intuniv, which seems to act as a mood stabilizer in children. It does help. Again, nothing is really a "magic bullet".
If I were you, I would start tracking your child's symptoms in a journal. Note the dates and times of the disruptive behaviors, along with any precursors or situational factors, such as setting, foods, sleep, and people involved. Eventually, you can analyze it for patterns, and maybe it will even open doors to the details of his behaviors you hadn't considered previously.
Consider a full neuro-psychiatric evaluation by a team of professionals. They should look for developmental and medical causes, mood disorders, ADHD, sensory integration issues, allergies, and autism spectrum disorders. The sooner you get some sort of intervention, the better. We're presently getting our youngest son in-home autism therapy services, and it does help to have someone other than Mom and Dad do everything.
I understand your situation. I hope you find some answers.
(((hugs)))
wow i was going to say something but it's already been said!! LOL. you guys are great! this dad's going to have alot to read!! 
Welcome by the way and yes clearly from the responses you got you have found a great place. by the way my daughter was dxd with ODD over a year ago. Needless to say we addresssed some issues she was having, and her behaviors calmed. it was a symptom in our case of some emotional junk she hadnt' worked thru.
clearly yours is different. sounds so much like my kids while going thru the developmental stages, except she wasnt' a hitter.
Welcome by the way and yes clearly from the responses you got you have found a great place. by the way my daughter was dxd with ODD over a year ago. Needless to say we addresssed some issues she was having, and her behaviors calmed. it was a symptom in our case of some emotional junk she hadnt' worked thru.
clearly yours is different. sounds so much like my kids while going thru the developmental stages, except she wasnt' a hitter.
D
Dadontheedge
Guest
Thank you all for your advice it has been a great help. We are looking into Dr. Greene's books and websties. We now believe that he has a lot of under-developement issues that may be driving his ODD. We are still going through with getting him examined and possibly diagnosed, as that is the only way to get the school to implement an IEP. Wish us luck!
H
HaoZi
Guest
There's a lot of advice running around here re:IEPs, too. Keep us updated and let us know how things are going.
D
Dadontheedge
Guest
Update: his school has finished their assessment, though I am a little disappointed... I was under the impression that the assessment was going to be a bit more thurough than purely achedemically based. However, they did say that our little difficult child seems to be very intelligent, that much we knew, but it does give us a new avenue to pursue. They sent a consent form home for us to sign, giving them permission to give him an IQ test. I am certain that it will prove that he is execptionally smart. If so then perhaps he is acting the way he is out of bordem. I hope that's the cause. I don't know what they will do after the test is finished.
His behavior is getting worse, I fear. We started doing Dr. Greene's "Plan B" approach to see if it deters the attitude and fighting. However, like with so many other things we've tried, it works for a short while, then it all falls apart again. Now he is refusing to talk to us at all when we ask him what's going on... We're going to be looking into a child psychologist next, the family councellor is great, but I think our difficult child needs a councellor who speciallizes in kids like him. More to come!
His behavior is getting worse, I fear. We started doing Dr. Greene's "Plan B" approach to see if it deters the attitude and fighting. However, like with so many other things we've tried, it works for a short while, then it all falls apart again. Now he is refusing to talk to us at all when we ask him what's going on... We're going to be looking into a child psychologist next, the family councellor is great, but I think our difficult child needs a councellor who speciallizes in kids like him. More to come!
H
HaoZi
Guest
High intelligence does not rule out autism spectrum disorders, Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), or a learning disability. Many of our difficult children are very smart kids who have been told to "apply themselves better" to the task at hand (and I know I heard it a lot as a kid, too, and I'm gifted) but for various other reasons they simply can't (sometimes won't).
Marguerite
Active Member
School assessments are often disappointing. They are not generally so well equipped to test to the level of scrutiny our kids often need. However, a school assessment can be used as a springboard for a later private assessment - we've several times taken school results to a private psychologist who looked at the results then gave other tests specifically targetting the areas of poor result, or any areas of special interest. Because the private psychologist did not have to repeat all the testing, it was able to look more deeply for the same costs to us.
I also am wondering about possible Asperger's. Also, if Plan B is not working, then go back to the book. He is seeming to be resistant possibly out of fear or not understanding what you are trying to do - he still sees the situation as you vs him. The aim is to show him (not just tell, but show) that you are there as a support, you are a tool he can use to get what he needs. But he needs to learn to communicate those needs to you more appropriately. He needs first to see you in the helper role and not as disciplinarian primarily. Discipline as you know it probably has to go out the window utterly, but there can still be some level of management. It turns into teaching him to self-manage. But your aim is to engage him in this process and I agree, professional help may be valuable. Try to find someone with experience/capability with CPS. Or also possibly CBT (Cognitive Behaviour Therapy).
Good luck, keep us informed. There is a wealth of experience here and you have done us a favour by starting up a valuable discussion.
Marg
