Update on difficult child who recently moved out. Could it be?

[Scent of Cedar *]

Child of Mine posted a thread about clouds, silver linings, and learning how to suffer without being destroyed by it. Learning how to know you suffer, and being able to hold that knowledge (the cloud of it) with the sure intention of knowing there is a purpose, a plan, a progression to all of it that we may not be able to see. That part was the silver lining. I'm not sure which thread that was, or whether I have described the concept correctly.

It was a comfort to me, to envision being able to come into balance around that concept.

I think she called the term "Radical Acceptance." She recommended a book for us, but I haven't read it, yet.

Child, if you see this, could you post that information again, for Wavering?

In the interim, I will post this quote for you. I just posted this for Strength, too. I used to have it in my signature. Then? I seemed to lose faith with myself. I began sort of jeering at myself for ever having believed it. I must have come through that place, now.

"Faith is not, contrary to the usual ideas, something that turns out right or wrong, like a gambler's bet. It is an act, an intention, a project; something that makes you, in leaping into the future, go so far, far ahead that you shoot clean out of Time and right into Eternity, which is not the end of time or unending Time, but timelessness, that old, Eternal Now."

Russ
On Strike Against God

Cedar


Cedar

 

[WaveringFaith]

I love that poem, so true. Thank you Scent.. I like the serenity prayer too. So much is out of our control, we can only have faith and just keep going..

<3

 

[SeekingStrength]

It was a good week that he was on this positive streak, doing everything right, acting like he did 2 years ago before this all took hold of him. It does show me that it IS possible. And I do celebrate that.

That is huge--just knowing it IS possible. He did do it for a bit. Perhaps it will be two steps forward, one step back kind of thing for a while.

I like the part where you have been practicing detachment and meditating. I need to do the same. Thanks for the inspiration.

Happy Valentine's Day to you and may you feel lots of love everywhere.

 

[Echolette]

Wavering,

it seems to me that one of the characteristics of difficult child's is a certain magical thinking about getting it together, sort of "there! I looked for a job! I have turned myself around!" combined with an inability to tolerate any kind of delay or process in getting the positive feedback (actually having a job, house, money, etc) that they are seeking at that moment. I have had dozens of conversations with my son that start with "good news mom! I am applying for jobs (or "I've got a job" or "I found a therapist" or "I want to AA" or "I've decided to go clearn".). Then he eagerly wants to know what I think of his new path. Of course the new path only lasts a few days at most. He just has no ability or desire to persevere.

I can't really tell about your difficult child..he may just have major depression. But as others have said, it is incumbent on him to get treatment. But none of us are surprised that his change of attitude didn't last. Still...as I said before...any change of attitude is better than sticking to the lousy attitude...I think.

Happy Valentine's Day to you, too, Wavering. May we all have love and joy today.

 

[Childofmine]

I remember standing there giving him speeches about how all the unfortunate people in the world, like people without arms or legs, etc.. How they are still able to enjoy and be thankful for life. It was like talking to a wall.

I did that too, WF! I used to give great speeches about all kinds of lofty, noble things that I just knew...just knew...would break through to him and jolt him into changing.

He must not know these things, so it's my job as his mother to make sure he's heard it at least once.

I threw a lot of words at it---verbal and written. I still do, but I'm doing better.

None of those words changed him. Maybe they went into a bank that he can draw on later, I don't know.

I was sure I could say something brilliant, do something, that ONE MORE THING, that would turn the tide.

I see some people doing it for the entire lifetime of their adult grown children, and still wondering why nothing has changed.

I don't want to be one of those people. I don't. Yes, I am still afraid for him and for his future----sometimes paralyzingly so. I must sit with that fear, welcome it, accept it, feel it and still...do nothing because of it. I have just started learning that in the past year and I have been practicing it.

And guess what? It has not killed me yet. It was my worst fear---feeling that fear.

Let's have a great day today! Let's work hard to do something different, just one thing. It will change other things.

Happy Valentine's Day! Peace and blessings to you today.

 

[recoveringenabler]

The back and forth of it all is exhausting for us parents WF. That's why we have to get off this roller coaster and get back on our own stable ground. If we ride along with them, we are never in control of our own lives..........you've gotten off the roller coaster and for a little while you still have that shaky feeling where your knees can buckle underneath you.

Years ago I took an art class where the facilitator told us to put our judgments in a little box right outside the classroom door. She said it was hard to be creative when the voice of judgement was always present attacking us. When I was in the deep throes of my 'stuff' with my daughter, I had an imaginary little box where I would put my daughter for parts of the day...........where she was safe in the hands of God and I would go about my day. I could open that box anytime (often the top flew off on it's own!!) but it helped me.

Hang in there WF, keep that umbrella close and enjoy this day of LOVE. Celebrate all we have to be grateful for............

 

[helpangel]

I don't think you jinxed anything by posting, I'll even go one further and say it was good for you he back slid back into his old ways...

No I haven't lost my mind (well actually?) anyway let me explain LOL

If he had truly turned over a new leaf and gotten a great job, a great wife, cool car, home & family of course you and all of us would be happy for him; but years from now (in the back of your mind) you would always wonder if you had been doing something wrong? On that same note would your parents get all the credit for his success like all that time and effort you have put into him didn't count? or worse was holding him back? If you & your folks do it all for him is his success his? I don't know I guess it's all in the way of looking at things... I try not to keep score in life or get caught up in the blame game.

I look at all 3 of my kids and know it's never going to be all good or all bad, there are always things that could be better but at same time things could be a whole lot worse. I use to totally stress when a bill showed up I didn't have money on hand to pay, now when I see the red words "SHUT OFF" I kind of chuckle and say to myself "that's their way of saying we seriously would like to see some money this month".

Seriously why stress? Does it solve anything? Not for me it just gets my head spinning so I can't think of logical solutions to the problem. Whats the worse that could happen? So they shut it off - people lived thousands of years without electricity, or cable or yes even internet. I don't think someone who has had home leveled by a tornado is stressing about missing their favorite show they are just glad to be alive!

On that note enjoy your Valentine's day and have comfort in knowing yes he's at that rough point in life everyone goes thru in finding themselves (transitioning to an adult) but it's not like he's high wire without a net that's what you and your folks are doing being the net so if he falls there is no SPLAT, but you have to let him climb that ladder or he will never know what he's capable of.

Nancy

 

[Sabine]

Ok, so I don't know anything from anything but..

What this sounds like is the kid has issues, maybe bipolar, maybe social anxiety, maybe depression.

When he got a change of scenery he was able to "snap out of it", turn a new leaf. After about a week, he goes back to the same-old same old... because he CAN.

The town changed, and the faces, but the situation didn't. He's still living at home, has a roof, a bed, meals provided.

He needs to get out on his own ASAP. Make him have to work for a living. He has the basic skills, he just has to be forced to use them. Take away the soft, comfy bed, and filling hot meals, and people will show their true capabilities.

If he's truly mentally ill, he'll go into a downward spiral, end up homeless, etc. If this were to happen, and you couldn't bear it, you could always go, and scrape him up off the street, give him the basement, and care for him the rest of your days. At that point, at least you KNOW that you gave him a shot, and he just couldn't do it.

I actually think you'll see a different outcome based on his history (and this recent glimpse of normalcy). He may always be plagued with depression, but I seriously doubt he'll be homeless. He'll get up, go to work, pay his bills, maybe meet someone and start a family.. or maybe spend his evenings at the bar with some buddies. Either way, he won't be wasting away in his parents' (grandparents') house.

How to make it happen? Suddenly kicking him out of doors really isn't helping anybody. A plan has to be created, with timelines etc.

I'm not in your shoes, so I can't say what would work for you and your family.. but the following is what I would do in this situation:

Go shopping.. purchase a hiking backpack, a good sleeping bag and pad, some dried food, etc. Everything a person needs that is planning on camping out for a couple weeks. (Google hiking/camping packing lists so I wouldn't forget something).

Then I'd tell my kid to do some research, because he's going to be moving to another part of the country, and I want him to be part of the decision making process as to where he is going.

Ideally the town would be relatively small (maybe 20k people), but big enough to have some job opportunities, and a convenient campground.

Prepay the campground for 3 months, and provide 2 weeks worth of rations. Leave the kid there. It would be great if he has a vehicle, but as long as the town is small enough, he can walk if necessary.

That's it. I did just this when I was his age, and it was good for me

 

[WaveringFaith]

Thank you all for your encouraging words. All great thoughts. Ultimately it is his decision. As long as my parents keep providing him housing, I know he still won't be forced to know what if feels like to fend for himself. Perhaps that is what will shake him. Only time will tell.

I ended up having a decent valentine's day with friends and we had the first warm weather day in months. I really savored the peace as I walked in a park. I used to take nature walks all the time before the difficult child drama began 2 years ago. I almost remembered what that felt like. Warm weather makes me happy. Maybe I have seasonal affective disorder, this has crossed my mind. I get pretty down in the winter days. But that's another show. ha

I hope everyone is enjoying their weekend and enjoying some bit of peace..

Hugs--

 

[BusynMember]

Hey...it's up to him to change. You can't control him anymore. And, no matter what, even if he is mentally ill, he has to take control of his own illness. I have struggled with mental illness all of my life and nobody scraped me off the ground and took me in nor is it necessary. Like all illnesses, there is treatment and you won't be around forever. He has to learn to take care of himself. I wouldn't buy him anything or rent him anything, if it were me. He needs to do this himself. Of course, this is just how I see it. If Gramps and Gran want to pay for him, there is always a necessary and often unpleasant payback. Like your sibs do, your son will have to kiss their feet and put up with verbal abuse to keep on getting the free money. And he may not like that, but when you depend on somebody, as an adult, for your money and your well being, you pay a hefty price. Maybe he will walk out on them. You never know.

I'm glad you had a decent V-day and I sure wish you'd send some of that warmer weather this way Hope you can keep your mind serene and focused on yourself...and continue detaching gently from your son and his drama.

Hugs

 

[Sabine]

The "kid" has been provided with a roof and food forever. To send him out on the street with nothing but the shirt on his back..well I doubt most of the parents on this board could live with themselves if they did that.

What sending a person to a campground (as opposed to a shelter) does, it keeps them in the realm of "normal" society. The other campers are families with children and retired couples, NOT homeless druggies. People are social creatures, and they tend to become like those they surround themselves with.

Plus, homeless shelters are DEPRESSING, and you take (I'm assuming here) a normal guy who's main problem is depression, and the situation is more likely to turn out poorly.

Anyway, so, he goes to the campground, his basic needs are met. He begins the search for a job. Hopefully he finds one in a week or so. Begins working. It'll take a week or even two to get a first paycheck. He buys food with it. It'll take a couple months' worth of paychecks to save enough to put a deposit on an apartment.

If his job search isn't fruitful in the first week, he'll need to apply for food stamps and the like, because time is running out. The pressure of a "ticking clock".. watching food stores dwindle, is quite motivating!

Even if this is not applicable for Wavering's difficult child, maybe it'll help someone out there

by the way, it's important the campground is located in a warm climate. When I went out on my own, winter weather short circuited the entire thing...

 

[BusynMember]

Sabine...most of us have. I know this shocks you. I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd do it. Sometimes there is no choice. Some of us send them out and still help a little. Some of our kids have lived on the streets or are living on the streets. I have done it.

My daughter is clean now. It has been ten years. We sent her out with nothing. Her brother did take her in, but he is VERY straight and the conditions were if she so much as lit up one cigarette she was out on the street and she knew he meant it. Almost as soon as she moved there, she quit her drug use, detoxing in his basement, not telling anyone, but just doing it. She got a job, walking to and from work. She helped him with the chores and cooking (it was mandatory for her). She paid him rent. She grew up. She did everything she COULD have done at home, but would not do because she knew we'd pick her up if she fell. She went back to college and paid for it, getting financial aid. She owns a house with her boyfriend now. She is expecting my first grandaughter. We are the best of friends.

Yes, I cried for three straight weeks after I did it. Other than the roof over her head, she had no money and her brother wasn't going to give her any. She left saying, "I'll hate you forever." Now she says, "You did the right thing or nothing would have changed." I went to Narc-Anon and therapy and was supported in this move. Even if she had not been able to talk her brother into taking her in, she was out of the house with nothing. She had broken the rules too many times, been arrested too many times, she was on the road to death and destruction and jail. I wasn't going to help her get there by making it cozy for her to do so. Do you know what? She even quit smoking cigarettes. I know her baby will be VERY healthy. She won't even take an aspirin.

We do our children who are adults no favors helping them stay children and dependent upon us. Please do not judge us or speak harshly to us. We are further along in our journey than you are. We are a tough love group. Our home/our rules. For most of us, we struggle not to enable our adult children so that they have the opportunity to grow up and treat others with the respect we deserve. We as parents are as important as our children and being abused is not something we tolerate. You are not as close to retirement as most of us. It is unfair of us to give up our retirement money to fund a drugged up or lazy adult just because he or she will not get his or her life together. You will not find many of us who don't set strong limits on our adult children. They have the choice...follow our rules or leave. They usually tend to swear, abuse us, then leave. So they have made the decision to walk out that door. Some of us HAVE used up part of our retirement before we saw it doesn't help our kids and it makes OUR lives horrible.

Read some of our stories. We are not enablers and most of us have cut off the money supply after seeing that it does not change our adult children one wit. Now, we also are very tolerant. You do what you feel is right, but you also have to respect our paths and what we do and we do it from our own experiences. We can not get ill, have a heart attack or die because we are still parenting a 25 year old child when we are 55. Other people love us and want us around. Our difficult children think it's all about them, but it's not.Your oldest is 13. It is hard for somebody with such a young oldest (smile) to understand how it gets when your "child" is 23 and still acting 10 and refuses to look for a job or grow up. You're not there yet. I hope you never are.

Likely if you send a difficult child who is 23 to a campground, assuming he'd go, he would find drug users and not even stay at the campgrounds. We have tried, many of us have tried. to get places for our difficult children to stay and they don't or they get thrown out for behavior. What would you do if your 23 year old adult child came home high, threatened you or hit you, stole your money, swore at you, scared you? You can't know that yet, but this is what we face here. These adult kids do not listen to what we want them to do or we wouldn't be here. They tend to have no respect for "normal" and spurn societal norms. Many of us have been assaulted, robbed and threatened by our own children. It is not like a thirteen year old at all. I wish you luck with your children, but they are still young enough where you have some control over them.

Now I respect that the campground worked for you. If you read our stories, you will see that most of our grown kids have NO DESIRE to fit into society, to make money by holding a job (except perhaps drug dealing) and are non-compliant when we get them places to stay, which is why they are homeless. Trust me on this.Some do get food stamps and other help, yet others panhandle and, again, the ole sell drugs bit. That is where most of our kids actually are at. They are not motivated by anything other than to come home, banging on the door, often in the middle of the night, demanding we buy this or that for them. When we give them money, they don't buy food, they buy drugs. I'm happy for you that you were overwise motivated and I commend you. If only it were always that simple to motivate our grown kids!

With that, I would ask that before you lash out, you read first. And remember that our children are much older than yours and things change when they are legally able to do whatever the hello they want to do. You are not in our shoes. I hope you never are.

Thank you for your consideration and have a peaceful day

 

[Sabine]

Wow,

Just as I'm writing from my experience, you are writing from yours. We all tend to overlay what we think is happening in the OP's home in our responses as to what our recommendations are to the OP.

Each person here is in a different phase of life/child rearing. Midwest, you're absolutely right, if a parent has already tried the "get the child out of the house" phase, then they would (and should!) disregard the "campground solution". That parent will know that that solution isn't right for their situation.

In a house that the children have been in a holding pattern, and aren't threatening the parents with life and limb, and still have a glimmer of hope, and the parents want to try something else (aren't ready to take the plunge of kicking them out on the street).. then maybe the campground solution could be a good one.

I'm sorry if my initial sentence "well I doubt most of the parents on this board could live with themselves if they did that" was ill-founded. I didn't mean to make such a sweeping assumption. And the thing is, is I doubt the parents on this board resorted to kicking the kids out on the street FIRST. My post wasn't MEANT to address the situation where a parent had tried all these things and is at his/her wits end. My suggestion is geared for the "not quite there" crowd.

And, as for the parents having to spend their retirement money? My suggestion of the backpack/supplies/campground? Under $500 if you shop around. Most "kids" will cost the household that amount in a month or two anyway.

 

[Sabine]

Oh, and if something about my tone made me sound like I was "lashing out", again, I meant no such thing! (Even in the above post ). I hold nothing against anyone here. I'm just trying to help.

It seems like a lot of parents get on here, looking for support, and maybe some ideas. Support is coming out of the woodwork (it's wonderful!). I'm not very good with support, but I tend to be full of ideas If my ideas aren't good for your situation, then just ignore them. Ideas are just that, and may come across as "idea-lic".

Have a wonderful day! I love Wisconsin, it's a beautiful State!

 

[BusynMember]

Thank you, Sabine. Most of us here have tried finding places for our kids. Drug addiction is nasty.

Wisconsin is COLD right now...lol

 

[recoveringenabler]

Sabine, you are very thoughtful to put yourself out there to try to help. What you cannot possible know is the devastation we here on the PE board have for the most part already gone through by the time we land here with our adult kids. Some of our kids are older then you are now and we've been going through this hell for decades.

One of the most important things we look for here is empathy and compassion from others who've walked in our shoes...........often we are judged in society or no one around us truly understands the heartbreak we live with daily. We are terrified for our kids and we've gone through losses and grief other parents will never have a clue about. We are broken, exhausted, depleted and have no where to turn. And when we find other parents who feel as we do, it is a miracle which brings an enormous amount of comfort to us.

Not one of us here arrives at the thought to put our kids out on the street with only a shelter address easily.......... by the time that becomes a possibility, believe me, we have exhausted everything else and likely for years...........and also likely to our own detriment with our health and our finances in ruins.

Many of our kids despise us, manipulate us, lie to us, do damage to our homes and our lives, steal from us, are violent with us, force us to live as hostages in our own homes........ruin our relationships and put us through years and years, sometimes decades of a nightmare not one of us can easily escape from.

Although I understand how much you want to help, I hear that, I would caution you to tread lightly, here on the PE board many of us are very vulnerable, shaken, very, very tired and we've heard everyone's assessment of us for a long time.............everyone's ideas about what we should be doing or not doing...........what we need more then anything else is compassion, empathy, understanding and a very soft place to rest as the battles in real life continue to rage...........

 

[Sabine]

Sorry, didn't realize this was a private board, maybe having a password would help keep the "wrong sort" out...

 

[recoveringenabler]

Sabine, this is not a private board and we value your input, I was trying to explain to you how it feels to be our age and to have gone through what we all here have been through so you could perhaps understand more and gear your responses in a way which takes in to account that we are weary and vulnerable and have often already covered many of the bases by the time we arrive on the PE side. Having empathy is difficult when you haven't walked in our shoes. Some of us are almost twice as old as you are and have been in this hell for quite a long time, and of course, you would have no way of knowing what this is like for us.

I was asking you for compassion. Your response seems unduly defensive.

 

[helpangel]

It's kind of one of those "till you walk in those shoes" deals to fully understand where many of these parents are coming from. I was a difficult child and am the parent of 3 difficult child's; when my parents kicked me out @ 17yo my version of your campground was working & traveling with a carnival.

I know what it is like to be 800 miles from parents and not have 2 nickles to rub together; I've made soup from hot water, ketchup, salt, pepper & creamer at a bus station. The point is with these kids if they were meant to survive they do, the ones that don't survive probably wouldn't have even if we the parents allowed them to destroy us financially & emotionally enabling their failure to thrive.

My friend & I know her daughter killed her husband, coronary during one of her rages. Another friend lost his grandfather after his brother emptied his bank account, charged $20,000 and totaled his car. At some point it isn't "can't live with kicking them out" and becomes "I (and the family) can't survive if they stay"

Pray you never have to walk in these shoes, my parents saved my life by forcing me to grow up.

Nancy

 

[Childofmine]

Sabine, keep coming back. One of the norms in recovery is: Take what you like and leave the rest.

And respect for all becomes a key as we all hurt and grow and change, and fall back and make progress.

Each of us can only do what he/she feels is right. We all have to look in the mirror every day. We have all been where we have been and are where we are today, inch by inch by inch and by the grace of God.

Four years ago, it was completely unthinkable to me that my son would ever be homeless. "Not while I had a roof over my head myself." Not gonna happen. You'll see on other threads that I turned him away in the middle of the night Saturday night. Again.

Sabine, you can't know the horror of living with active addiction of your precious child---now an adult---under your own roof. It is impossible to fully know it until you live it.

And I pray you never do.

I remember sitting in Al-Anon and hearing other mothers talk about telling their adult children not to contact them anymore. Privately, secretly, I thought to myself: I will never do that. There is never a situation that will come when I will do that.

And I haven't. Yet. But Sabine, today I don't say never anymore. My son, with his actions and his persistent self-destructive behaviors, has taught me that.

You are welcome here. But never say never.