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13 year old in psychiatric ward for first time
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<blockquote data-quote="seriously" data-source="post: 466643" data-attributes="member: 11920"><p>I can second guess <span style="color: #ff0000">some reasons for the bipolar muttering</span>. Although I would have thought he might be heading toward schizoaffective given the apparent lack of emotional reaction? I'm not sure if I'm reading too much into your previous descriptions but flattened affect sounds like it would apply to what you are describing.</p><p></p><p>1. <span style="color: #ff0000">Public masturbation</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">2. Manic/hypomanic rx to Zoloft</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">3. Possible sx of thought disorder found in his speech - I'm guessing potential presentation of loose associations/flight of ideas, circumstantiality, pressured speech based on your very brief earlier description of his speech</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">4. Intrusive thoughts of suicide</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">5. Flattened affect, if present, can be sign of depression among many other things</span></p><p></p><p>None of these taken together or singly are conclusive of course but are often symptoms of early onset bipolar. Most child psychiatrists want at least a year of observation or a blatantly manic episode (not drug-induced) before they will give a Bipolar diagnosis to a child or adolescent. And response to treatment is always a part of the diagnostic process. Mix of depressive/hypomanic/manic in kids is very unpredictable and it is entirely possible, although very rare, to have someone who is mostly manic/hypomanic and rarely depressed or flips only between euthymic and manic. Rapidity of switching appears to be very unpredictable in kids but typically much quicker/frequent than in most adults with bipolar.</p><p></p><p>As others have said you have a complicated kid. You are certainly covering the bases and you probably have a terrific resource there at the private school for support to tackle daytime interventions and provide relatively objective observational data on his daytime behavior/moods.</p><p></p><p>I would definitely be <span style="color: #ff0000">charting </span>= start and stop of medications by name, activity levels and amount/quality of speech may be more helpful with him than apparent mood states as outward manifestations of mood states, unusual things like illness, day off from school, doctor's appointments - anything out of the ordinary if you have time, anxiety, whether he's had an incident of masturbation, # hours sleep, medications yes/no, OTC medications</p><p></p><p>I agree that your son is presenting with a mixture of issues that doesn't fit well into one category. But that is more the rule than not with kids who have significant mental illness and/or developmental disabilities.</p><p></p><p>I am actually wondering if maybe<span style="color: #ff0000"> a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) diagnosis that is NOT autism </span>might fit better with the apparently "autistic" symptoms and you should be looking for a direct or records review consult with someplace that is doing research along those lines. You might want to check out:</p><p></p><p><a href="http://medicine.yale.edu/childstudy/autism/information/autism.aspx" target="_blank">http://medicine.yale.edu/childstudy/autism/information/autism.aspx</a></p><p><a href="http://childstudycenter.yale.edu/autism/information/mdd.aspx" target="_blank">http://childstudycenter.yale.edu/autism/information/mdd.aspx</a></p><p><a href="http://www.mcdd.be/index_en.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mcdd.be/index_en.htm</a></p><p></p><p>And hx early brain injury probably throws a serious wrench in the diagnostic works.</p><p></p><p>So I think the focus for now needs to be on symptom control.</p><p></p><p>The reservations about all the medications. been there done that. <span style="color: #ff0000">If you are really unsure about the Abilify I would ask the psychiatrist about a trial of Seroquel</span>, given the pervasive suicidal ideation. If you're going to try an atypical then Seroquel is known for rapid response and treatment of suicidal ideation according to the psychiatrists I've worked with.</p><p></p><p>Frankly any of the <span style="color: #ff0000">psychiatric drugs can cause an increase in suicidal thinking/behavior</span> so it's important to have him report this to you immediately. Having him in the private school during the day is a god send and I hope you are not having to work on top of everything else and can get some rest and recovering during the day when he's gone.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">The same with long Q-t. I believe all the atypical's have a long Q-t syndrome warning on them</span>. You know the deal with that so I expect you are on top of doing ekg's and monitoring, to the extent possible, the development of long Q-t. But my guess is given the severity of his symptoms, you are going to have to<span style="color: #ff0000"> bite that bullet and take the risk if you find a medication that really helps his sx </span>but increases his risk for that.</p><p></p><p>With a kid this complicated and scary due to the animal deaths, <span style="color: #ff0000">you may want to seek a comprehensive evaluation at a major research/teaching center that takes a team approach with kids like yours</span>. Not many of those around but Yale might be one to consider. Heck, <span style="color: #ff0000">you may be within a reasonable distance to NIMH in Bethesda. If so, I would give them a call</span> and see if they have a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) screening study or other clinical trial they might be able to fit him into. You should be able to get some assessments that way that may be hard to get without $$$ privately.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://clinicalstudies.info.nih.gov/cgi/detail.cgi?A_2006-M-0065.html" target="_blank">http://clinicalstudies.info.nih.gov/cgi/detail.cgi?A_2006-M-0065.html</a></p><p></p><p>If you get to the point of considering enrollment in a clinical trial, feel free to PM me or post about it and I can share our experiences and the things I've learned to ask about or consider before agreeing. We have done multiple clinical trials, mostly medical but also a couple psychiatric ones, over the past several years.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="seriously, post: 466643, member: 11920"] I can second guess [COLOR=#ff0000]some reasons for the bipolar muttering[/COLOR]. Although I would have thought he might be heading toward schizoaffective given the apparent lack of emotional reaction? I'm not sure if I'm reading too much into your previous descriptions but flattened affect sounds like it would apply to what you are describing. 1. [COLOR=#ff0000]Public masturbation 2. Manic/hypomanic rx to Zoloft 3. Possible sx of thought disorder found in his speech - I'm guessing potential presentation of loose associations/flight of ideas, circumstantiality, pressured speech based on your very brief earlier description of his speech 4. Intrusive thoughts of suicide 5. Flattened affect, if present, can be sign of depression among many other things[/COLOR] None of these taken together or singly are conclusive of course but are often symptoms of early onset bipolar. Most child psychiatrists want at least a year of observation or a blatantly manic episode (not drug-induced) before they will give a Bipolar diagnosis to a child or adolescent. And response to treatment is always a part of the diagnostic process. Mix of depressive/hypomanic/manic in kids is very unpredictable and it is entirely possible, although very rare, to have someone who is mostly manic/hypomanic and rarely depressed or flips only between euthymic and manic. Rapidity of switching appears to be very unpredictable in kids but typically much quicker/frequent than in most adults with bipolar. As others have said you have a complicated kid. You are certainly covering the bases and you probably have a terrific resource there at the private school for support to tackle daytime interventions and provide relatively objective observational data on his daytime behavior/moods. I would definitely be [COLOR=#ff0000]charting [/COLOR]= start and stop of medications by name, activity levels and amount/quality of speech may be more helpful with him than apparent mood states as outward manifestations of mood states, unusual things like illness, day off from school, doctor's appointments - anything out of the ordinary if you have time, anxiety, whether he's had an incident of masturbation, # hours sleep, medications yes/no, OTC medications I agree that your son is presenting with a mixture of issues that doesn't fit well into one category. But that is more the rule than not with kids who have significant mental illness and/or developmental disabilities. I am actually wondering if maybe[COLOR=#ff0000] a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) diagnosis that is NOT autism [/COLOR]might fit better with the apparently "autistic" symptoms and you should be looking for a direct or records review consult with someplace that is doing research along those lines. You might want to check out: [URL]http://medicine.yale.edu/childstudy/autism/information/autism.aspx[/URL] [URL='http://childstudycenter.yale.edu/autism/information/mdd.aspx'][/URL] [URL]http://www.mcdd.be/index_en.htm[/URL] And hx early brain injury probably throws a serious wrench in the diagnostic works. So I think the focus for now needs to be on symptom control. The reservations about all the medications. been there done that. [COLOR=#ff0000]If you are really unsure about the Abilify I would ask the psychiatrist about a trial of Seroquel[/COLOR], given the pervasive suicidal ideation. If you're going to try an atypical then Seroquel is known for rapid response and treatment of suicidal ideation according to the psychiatrists I've worked with. Frankly any of the [COLOR=#ff0000]psychiatric drugs can cause an increase in suicidal thinking/behavior[/COLOR] so it's important to have him report this to you immediately. Having him in the private school during the day is a god send and I hope you are not having to work on top of everything else and can get some rest and recovering during the day when he's gone. [COLOR=#ff0000]The same with long Q-t. I believe all the atypical's have a long Q-t syndrome warning on them[/COLOR]. You know the deal with that so I expect you are on top of doing ekg's and monitoring, to the extent possible, the development of long Q-t. But my guess is given the severity of his symptoms, you are going to have to[COLOR=#ff0000] bite that bullet and take the risk if you find a medication that really helps his sx [/COLOR]but increases his risk for that. With a kid this complicated and scary due to the animal deaths, [COLOR=#ff0000]you may want to seek a comprehensive evaluation at a major research/teaching center that takes a team approach with kids like yours[/COLOR]. Not many of those around but Yale might be one to consider. Heck, [COLOR=#ff0000]you may be within a reasonable distance to NIMH in Bethesda. If so, I would give them a call[/COLOR] and see if they have a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) screening study or other clinical trial they might be able to fit him into. You should be able to get some assessments that way that may be hard to get without $$$ privately. [URL]http://clinicalstudies.info.nih.gov/cgi/detail.cgi?A_2006-M-0065.html[/URL] If you get to the point of considering enrollment in a clinical trial, feel free to PM me or post about it and I can share our experiences and the things I've learned to ask about or consider before agreeing. We have done multiple clinical trials, mostly medical but also a couple psychiatric ones, over the past several years. [/QUOTE]
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