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4year old with ADHD and ODD - at wits end
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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 175691" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Hi, welcome. THere is help here for you. If you can, get husband to read the posts here as well, or even post questions of his own. This can really help you both have THE SAME understanding of your problems. Two heads are better than one, especially when those heads should be working together.</p><p></p><p>MWM, Jenni has no choice about CHOOSING to have another baby now, or waiting - the baby is on the way. That's why the situation is becoming urgent.</p><p></p><p>Jenni, MWM made some good suggestions. I'll add to them (and reinforce).</p><p></p><p>First, ADHD plus ODD, at this age, is I don't think the full story necessarily. ODD shouldn't be a label handed out after a short time observing, it requires involved testing over a period of time. However, I keep hearing of people whose children have got this label, often still very young, and I think this can lead you astray if you're not careful.</p><p></p><p>To elaborate on MWM - ODD is a big problem and difficult to deal with. But there exists, in my observation, a manifestation in some children that LOOKS a lot like ODD but can respond positively to a change in parenting. If a child has an underlying disorder (such as ADHD, among others) plus you are trying to cope by parenting with strictness and tight controls, you risk developing this manifestation which looks like ODD. THe more you try to control the bad behaviour, the worse it gets. Although this is not your fault, it IS being aggravated by the strict controlling-type of parenting style.</p><p></p><p>There are ways, and there are ways. MWM suggested you get a copy of "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. It will help, if anything will. It shows you a window into WHY the child is behaving the way he is, and once you have this insight, it's easier to then modify your reaction to the child and your methods of handling him, to bring about te improvement in his behaviour. At the very least, it helps you turn it around form the current worsening. It's not a cure - the underlying disorder is still there. It is just an easier way of coping, and that in itself can make it easier for the child's efforts (as well as your own) to begin to make headway. </p><p></p><p>A child who is trying to behave but is constantly failing (or feeling constantly criticised) will not only stop trying, but can become very disruptive because it's easier and it lets them express their rage. But if there are some good moments in their life and they can begin to feel that they CAN hold it together, it can make a big difference in improving behaviour.</p><p></p><p>Example: difficult child 1 was a big behaviour problem. He was not only inattentive, he would make noises at the back of the class and get yelled at constantly by the teacher. His response was to make even more noises. Punishment made no difference. And when called on in class, he would refuse to respond. Sometimes he would hide. He was beginning to lash out physically with other kids, too.</p><p>It took us most of a year to get answers (initially I was told that I was the problem - a common accusation) and when at the end of the year a pediatrician told us (difficult child 1 also) that the problem was severe ADHD, and that difficult child 1 simply couldn't help a lot of what had been happening, the change was remarkable. The doctor suggested we try diet first, to see if there were some foods which made his behaviour worse. Then he was going to prescribe medications. But even before we had a chance to try ANYTHING, we saw a big improvement in difficult child 1's behaviour, and his mood. As he said to us, "I know now it's not because I'm a naughty kid. I'm a good kid after all. There's a reason for this. It's not my fault." With his self-esteem improved, his compliance improved also. Not a lot, because the problem was very bad. But enough for us to see some hope.</p><p></p><p>The other part of this story that I want you to keep in mind - while we were initially told difficult child 1 has ADHD, it turned out to be far more. He's been diagnosed with Asperger's as well. It would have helped to know sooner, we made a lot of mistakes even though we were taking ADHD into account (which he also has).</p><p></p><p>A lot of what we thought was oppositional behaviour, was difficult child 1 simply not being able to be different. He is obsessive and had repetitive behaviour patterns which he just couldn't stop. Our attempts to control these behaviours, and his inability to comply, LOOKED oppositional but were in fact out of his control entirely.</p><p></p><p>difficult child 3 was even worse, with what looked like ODD. And looking back, a lot of it was difficult child 3 raging, getting very angry, lashing out, reacting to people in the way they reacted to him. If we yelled at difficult child 3, he would yell right back. He did not discriminate between child or adult, in his eyes everybody was equal. A teacher startled him at school with a sudden loud noise and difficult child 3 turned round and shouted at her. He still does things like this - while we were shopping last Wednesday, I had allowed him to go comparison shopping to get the best price on a gift for grandma's birthday. As difficult child 3 came back into the supermarket, an old woman was behind him. difficult child 3 had stopped to talk to me, unaware for a few minutes of the old woman who was patiently waiting for him to move and let her past. When he saw her he said loudly, "Oh, it's you again. Are you following me?"</p><p>I know difficult child 3. It was intended as a flippant remark. He was not intending it to sound rude. But it did. I was about to apologise to the woman (a few onlookers were looking scandalised) when I noticed the old woman smile as she walked past, and continued with a smile. I suspected then that difficult child 3 had spoken to her, probably chatted to her at some length. Enough for her to understand that this kid is different.</p><p>difficult child 3's remark would not have been seen as rude, if it had been spoken by the old woman toward either a friend of hers, or to difficult child 3. But from a child to a senior - not a good look.</p><p>But socially, difficult child 3 just doesn't get this.</p><p>By the time he's an adult, it won't matter any more. Until then, I run interference when necessary.</p><p></p><p>What I'm trying to say - ODD, especially in such a young child, is in the mind of the beholder. It is a matter of perspective and because it often isn't true ODD (but just something that looks like it) it can also be turned around, to a point. And once you have a better understanding of the child and his fears, your perspective changes and it looks a lot less like ODD.</p><p></p><p>The book helps. To get an advance idea, look at the sticky post at the top of this forum. </p><p></p><p>And another thing, along the lines of MWM's references to Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) and Asperger's. Have a look at the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire on <a href="http://www.childbrain.com" target="_blank">www.childbrain.com</a>. The link to the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire is there somewhere. It can't be used to diagnose him, but you can print the results and run it past a doctor for a more formal medical opinion. You could do this with husband if you like, or get husband to try answering the questions on his own, and then compare notes.</p><p></p><p>You do need some sense of direction with Seth, sooner. There is help available but you need to have some idea of where to go. Medication isn't always the right fix - we do tend to see a diagnosis and then try to find the pill to fix it, when sometimes pills can make other problems surface. it's a balancing game - is there a net benefit, or do the pills bring out other problems which we dislike even more? A child is moody or depressed, and sometimes we reach for the pills instead of asking the child why they are sad. </p><p>On the other hand, we medicated difficult child 3 with stims from the age of 3. And they worked almost like magic.</p><p></p><p>The rule of thumb with medications, is the WOW factor (as Temple Grandin describes it). If medications are prescribed and you try them, and the child improves dramatically with a "WOW! What an improvement!" impression on you, then the medications are a good thing. But if the medications are prescribed and the child takes them with little appreciable difference, then why bother? Why take medications which cost money, have a chemical effect on the body, but have little or no apparent effect?</p><p></p><p>Again, don't go off medications suddenly (or at all) without checking with a doctor, but you do need to realise, you as a parent DO have input into this. You live with the child, the doctor doesn't. Doctors can be wrong. But they still need to be involved in the long-term management especially where medications are concerned.</p><p></p><p>With Seth, there is a good chance he feels rejected, in so many ways. His behaviour is making your reaction to him worse (understandable) but it's not helping him. it's a vicious circle and I think you both could do with some help to get around this. Also, some counselling might be in order (again, for you both) to help you prepare him for the arrival of a baby.</p><p></p><p>If there is a chance that Seth has Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), it is possible he will have unrealistic expectations of what a baby can or can't do. You may not realise just to what extent this is a problem and again, I think professional counselling is going to help here.</p><p></p><p>We can't tell you if Seth will get better or get worse. All we can suggest, is stuff to try which has a chance of bringing improvement. A number of us here have success stories.</p><p></p><p>If you give him up, he will be starting at square one with someone else who doesn't have the long-term experience of him nor the blood-ties. even though you feel apathetic towards him at times, chances are you care about him more than a total stranger would. You certainly care enough to come here and try to find answers for him.</p><p></p><p>Give these things a try - </p><p></p><p>1) Read "Explosive Child" and try to apply at least some of it (we saw improvement in difficult child 3, from the day I started reading the book). It's something you can do regardless of what is actually wrong with him, and it's something you can do now, you don't have to wait for doctors to work out what is wrong. This helps now.</p><p></p><p>2) Try the online Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) test, informally, then show the doctor.</p><p></p><p>3) Get husband to do the same - read the book, do the test, read stuff on this site.</p><p></p><p>4) Get counselling, for you and Seth. To try to help you both, to try to help Seth get ready for the baby, to try to help you both in other ways.</p><p></p><p>If you can do all of these before September, then Seth will be starting junior Kindergarten with the best chance of success you could give him. No guarantees, but at least you will have tried something with a chance of bringing noticeable improvement.</p><p></p><p>Keep us posted, feel free to ask anything or dump when you need to.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 175691, member: 1991"] Hi, welcome. THere is help here for you. If you can, get husband to read the posts here as well, or even post questions of his own. This can really help you both have THE SAME understanding of your problems. Two heads are better than one, especially when those heads should be working together. MWM, Jenni has no choice about CHOOSING to have another baby now, or waiting - the baby is on the way. That's why the situation is becoming urgent. Jenni, MWM made some good suggestions. I'll add to them (and reinforce). First, ADHD plus ODD, at this age, is I don't think the full story necessarily. ODD shouldn't be a label handed out after a short time observing, it requires involved testing over a period of time. However, I keep hearing of people whose children have got this label, often still very young, and I think this can lead you astray if you're not careful. To elaborate on MWM - ODD is a big problem and difficult to deal with. But there exists, in my observation, a manifestation in some children that LOOKS a lot like ODD but can respond positively to a change in parenting. If a child has an underlying disorder (such as ADHD, among others) plus you are trying to cope by parenting with strictness and tight controls, you risk developing this manifestation which looks like ODD. THe more you try to control the bad behaviour, the worse it gets. Although this is not your fault, it IS being aggravated by the strict controlling-type of parenting style. There are ways, and there are ways. MWM suggested you get a copy of "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. It will help, if anything will. It shows you a window into WHY the child is behaving the way he is, and once you have this insight, it's easier to then modify your reaction to the child and your methods of handling him, to bring about te improvement in his behaviour. At the very least, it helps you turn it around form the current worsening. It's not a cure - the underlying disorder is still there. It is just an easier way of coping, and that in itself can make it easier for the child's efforts (as well as your own) to begin to make headway. A child who is trying to behave but is constantly failing (or feeling constantly criticised) will not only stop trying, but can become very disruptive because it's easier and it lets them express their rage. But if there are some good moments in their life and they can begin to feel that they CAN hold it together, it can make a big difference in improving behaviour. Example: difficult child 1 was a big behaviour problem. He was not only inattentive, he would make noises at the back of the class and get yelled at constantly by the teacher. His response was to make even more noises. Punishment made no difference. And when called on in class, he would refuse to respond. Sometimes he would hide. He was beginning to lash out physically with other kids, too. It took us most of a year to get answers (initially I was told that I was the problem - a common accusation) and when at the end of the year a pediatrician told us (difficult child 1 also) that the problem was severe ADHD, and that difficult child 1 simply couldn't help a lot of what had been happening, the change was remarkable. The doctor suggested we try diet first, to see if there were some foods which made his behaviour worse. Then he was going to prescribe medications. But even before we had a chance to try ANYTHING, we saw a big improvement in difficult child 1's behaviour, and his mood. As he said to us, "I know now it's not because I'm a naughty kid. I'm a good kid after all. There's a reason for this. It's not my fault." With his self-esteem improved, his compliance improved also. Not a lot, because the problem was very bad. But enough for us to see some hope. The other part of this story that I want you to keep in mind - while we were initially told difficult child 1 has ADHD, it turned out to be far more. He's been diagnosed with Asperger's as well. It would have helped to know sooner, we made a lot of mistakes even though we were taking ADHD into account (which he also has). A lot of what we thought was oppositional behaviour, was difficult child 1 simply not being able to be different. He is obsessive and had repetitive behaviour patterns which he just couldn't stop. Our attempts to control these behaviours, and his inability to comply, LOOKED oppositional but were in fact out of his control entirely. difficult child 3 was even worse, with what looked like ODD. And looking back, a lot of it was difficult child 3 raging, getting very angry, lashing out, reacting to people in the way they reacted to him. If we yelled at difficult child 3, he would yell right back. He did not discriminate between child or adult, in his eyes everybody was equal. A teacher startled him at school with a sudden loud noise and difficult child 3 turned round and shouted at her. He still does things like this - while we were shopping last Wednesday, I had allowed him to go comparison shopping to get the best price on a gift for grandma's birthday. As difficult child 3 came back into the supermarket, an old woman was behind him. difficult child 3 had stopped to talk to me, unaware for a few minutes of the old woman who was patiently waiting for him to move and let her past. When he saw her he said loudly, "Oh, it's you again. Are you following me?" I know difficult child 3. It was intended as a flippant remark. He was not intending it to sound rude. But it did. I was about to apologise to the woman (a few onlookers were looking scandalised) when I noticed the old woman smile as she walked past, and continued with a smile. I suspected then that difficult child 3 had spoken to her, probably chatted to her at some length. Enough for her to understand that this kid is different. difficult child 3's remark would not have been seen as rude, if it had been spoken by the old woman toward either a friend of hers, or to difficult child 3. But from a child to a senior - not a good look. But socially, difficult child 3 just doesn't get this. By the time he's an adult, it won't matter any more. Until then, I run interference when necessary. What I'm trying to say - ODD, especially in such a young child, is in the mind of the beholder. It is a matter of perspective and because it often isn't true ODD (but just something that looks like it) it can also be turned around, to a point. And once you have a better understanding of the child and his fears, your perspective changes and it looks a lot less like ODD. The book helps. To get an advance idea, look at the sticky post at the top of this forum. And another thing, along the lines of MWM's references to Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) and Asperger's. Have a look at the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire on [url]www.childbrain.com[/url]. The link to the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire is there somewhere. It can't be used to diagnose him, but you can print the results and run it past a doctor for a more formal medical opinion. You could do this with husband if you like, or get husband to try answering the questions on his own, and then compare notes. You do need some sense of direction with Seth, sooner. There is help available but you need to have some idea of where to go. Medication isn't always the right fix - we do tend to see a diagnosis and then try to find the pill to fix it, when sometimes pills can make other problems surface. it's a balancing game - is there a net benefit, or do the pills bring out other problems which we dislike even more? A child is moody or depressed, and sometimes we reach for the pills instead of asking the child why they are sad. On the other hand, we medicated difficult child 3 with stims from the age of 3. And they worked almost like magic. The rule of thumb with medications, is the WOW factor (as Temple Grandin describes it). If medications are prescribed and you try them, and the child improves dramatically with a "WOW! What an improvement!" impression on you, then the medications are a good thing. But if the medications are prescribed and the child takes them with little appreciable difference, then why bother? Why take medications which cost money, have a chemical effect on the body, but have little or no apparent effect? Again, don't go off medications suddenly (or at all) without checking with a doctor, but you do need to realise, you as a parent DO have input into this. You live with the child, the doctor doesn't. Doctors can be wrong. But they still need to be involved in the long-term management especially where medications are concerned. With Seth, there is a good chance he feels rejected, in so many ways. His behaviour is making your reaction to him worse (understandable) but it's not helping him. it's a vicious circle and I think you both could do with some help to get around this. Also, some counselling might be in order (again, for you both) to help you prepare him for the arrival of a baby. If there is a chance that Seth has Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), it is possible he will have unrealistic expectations of what a baby can or can't do. You may not realise just to what extent this is a problem and again, I think professional counselling is going to help here. We can't tell you if Seth will get better or get worse. All we can suggest, is stuff to try which has a chance of bringing improvement. A number of us here have success stories. If you give him up, he will be starting at square one with someone else who doesn't have the long-term experience of him nor the blood-ties. even though you feel apathetic towards him at times, chances are you care about him more than a total stranger would. You certainly care enough to come here and try to find answers for him. Give these things a try - 1) Read "Explosive Child" and try to apply at least some of it (we saw improvement in difficult child 3, from the day I started reading the book). It's something you can do regardless of what is actually wrong with him, and it's something you can do now, you don't have to wait for doctors to work out what is wrong. This helps now. 2) Try the online Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) test, informally, then show the doctor. 3) Get husband to do the same - read the book, do the test, read stuff on this site. 4) Get counselling, for you and Seth. To try to help you both, to try to help Seth get ready for the baby, to try to help you both in other ways. If you can do all of these before September, then Seth will be starting junior Kindergarten with the best chance of success you could give him. No guarantees, but at least you will have tried something with a chance of bringing noticeable improvement. Keep us posted, feel free to ask anything or dump when you need to. Marg [/QUOTE]
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