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<blockquote data-quote="Copabanana" data-source="post: 679394" data-attributes="member: 18958"><p>I disagree. I do not believe that <em>the appearance, the overt expression of aggressive behavior in children so young</em>, says much of anything about their true nature. To believe this, really, is kind of like the idea of a bad seed, wherein adults have little or no responsibility.</p><p></p><p>Let me tell you why I think the appearance of aggressivity or passivity in children so young, does not say much.</p><p></p><p>Some children turn their sadism against themselves. To me, this is as bad or worse, as turning it against others. Some kids hide their sadism, and call it something else. This is dangerous too. Because eventually it gels in a way in the personality that is frozen and hidden and because it is called something else, it is harder to confront and work out. It is no less destructive to themselves and to others if it is called another name.</p><p></p><p>I think the key here is the flexibility and the hopefulness to be able to say: I can be mean and I can be hurt. I have feelings and so does the other person. I will try to be open to the idea that I could have and still do hurt other people, while intentional or not. I can bear to accept and take responsibility for that. Similarly, the sensitive person might say to themselves. I can and have caused hurt. It may have indirect. But still I will own it. I will work on trying to recognize when I have done so and to find my power voice and I will take responsibility.</p><p></p><p>With respect to our schoolyard I think that one key is seeing all the kids as the same, and not different. To see the kids as different is to buy in to roles, and to risk helping to perpetuate stereotypical behaviors.</p><p></p><p>An alternative way to respond is to support the seemingly more aggressively behaving children, to not only take responsibility for their aggressive behaviors but to express their own pain, sadness, or vulnerability--which are equally there within them.</p><p></p><p>In this way the aggressive-appearing kids come to be able to feel safe and strong enough to express their weakness and sensitivity. And perhaps that they may have been, even, victimized. To express that too.</p><p></p><p>And to encourage the more reserved or passive---appearing child to <em>express directly </em>their own anger and grow their power-voice, instead of wielding their power, under wraps, by denouncing the other kids, openly or in hiding as perpetrators. Or just as harmful to them, to come to believe about themselves that they are victims.</p><p></p><p>Sometimes people, young and old, stomp out the appearance of their own vulnerability, because they are afraid. If they can come to feel safe enough to feel and be more vulnerable and expressive, they have the potential to develop compassion for themselves and for others.</p><p></p><p>I can be strong enough to hear the other person's pain without being diminished, because I can feel and express my own. I can be strong enough to see the other person's sensitivity and the way I may have hurt them, because I can allow myself to be who I am in all things.</p><p></p><p>It is to see both sides. That yes, I may suffer, and I may have suffered at the other's hand, but yes, I have caused suffering too. By not taking responsibility for my own anger and sense of vengeance, however covertly expressed. Sometimes, even concealed to myself. I am equally responsible as are others, as having limited myself by my self-serving beliefs about myself and others.</p><p></p><p>There is nobody to whom this would not apply. Myself, one of the first. I have hurt my own mother and sister to the extent that they have hurt me. I have been powerful and acted powerfully with regards to them, as they have towards me. To the extent that I could not see my responsibility, I am responsible now.</p><p></p><p>I do not want to be a frozen person, unable to see large parts of myself.</p><p></p><p>Everybody has the capacity for aggression and/or submission. Everybody can be harmed and harm. Sensitivity can be every bit as aggressive, albeit, covertly expressed. Passive-aggression is aggression still. The appearance of sensitivity, of submission, can be equally a means to manipulate and to cause hurt.</p><p></p><p>Neither aggression nor submission have anything to do with innocence or lack thereof. Children who behave aggressively on the playground may be victims in their own homes. They may be modeling what has been done to them. And when they have been victimized, they cry too.</p><p></p><p>When my sister tattled about me, telling lies, I may have cried too. I was a highly sensitive child. I remain a sensitive adult. I have also tried to be other things, too.</p><p></p><p>Aggressive children, can be victims as much as the more "sensitive-appearing" children." The expression of sensitivity can be a way to control or dominate a situation. This can be a way to "work" your environment, every bit a strategy as dominance. Power comes in many guises. There was a wonderful book I once read called <u>The Powers of the Weak.</u> I think the author was Elizabeth Janeway. The only difference between power strategies of weaker groups (and Individuals) is that they are covert.</p><p></p><p>My sister was a tattle. And she crowed in private about how she was able to "win" through presenting herself to herself and others about being the victim of others. When she had contrived and manipulated the entire thing, as if she had been the general in a war. It was aggressive. It was domineering. But it was covert. She controlled it all, with the appearance of victim-hood, when it was dominance and aggression. The only difference is she called it another thing.</p><p></p><p>My sister was able on a limited scale to wield power directly and openly in her work and her life. When she openly had power, unfortunately, she became a bully. Again, I say, there is an element of sadism, the potential to bully in everybody. It is how it is channeled. And how it is dealt with by parents and other adults.</p><p></p><p>I am thinking of my own son here. He was bullied to the point where he had to be put in a non-public school. He was bullied by teachers too. Like I think Insane does, I believe teachers influence bullying, by picking sides. They do so based upon their own psychologies.</p><p></p><p>COPA</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Copabanana, post: 679394, member: 18958"] I disagree. I do not believe that [I]the appearance, the overt expression of aggressive behavior in children so young[/I], says much of anything about their true nature. To believe this, really, is kind of like the idea of a bad seed, wherein adults have little or no responsibility. Let me tell you why I think the appearance of aggressivity or passivity in children so young, does not say much. Some children turn their sadism against themselves. To me, this is as bad or worse, as turning it against others. Some kids hide their sadism, and call it something else. This is dangerous too. Because eventually it gels in a way in the personality that is frozen and hidden and because it is called something else, it is harder to confront and work out. It is no less destructive to themselves and to others if it is called another name. I think the key here is the flexibility and the hopefulness to be able to say: I can be mean and I can be hurt. I have feelings and so does the other person. I will try to be open to the idea that I could have and still do hurt other people, while intentional or not. I can bear to accept and take responsibility for that. Similarly, the sensitive person might say to themselves. I can and have caused hurt. It may have indirect. But still I will own it. I will work on trying to recognize when I have done so and to find my power voice and I will take responsibility. With respect to our schoolyard I think that one key is seeing all the kids as the same, and not different. To see the kids as different is to buy in to roles, and to risk helping to perpetuate stereotypical behaviors. An alternative way to respond is to support the seemingly more aggressively behaving children, to not only take responsibility for their aggressive behaviors but to express their own pain, sadness, or vulnerability--which are equally there within them. In this way the aggressive-appearing kids come to be able to feel safe and strong enough to express their weakness and sensitivity. And perhaps that they may have been, even, victimized. To express that too. And to encourage the more reserved or passive---appearing child to [I]express directly [/I]their own anger and grow their power-voice, instead of wielding their power, under wraps, by denouncing the other kids, openly or in hiding as perpetrators. Or just as harmful to them, to come to believe about themselves that they are victims. Sometimes people, young and old, stomp out the appearance of their own vulnerability, because they are afraid. If they can come to feel safe enough to feel and be more vulnerable and expressive, they have the potential to develop compassion for themselves and for others. I can be strong enough to hear the other person's pain without being diminished, because I can feel and express my own. I can be strong enough to see the other person's sensitivity and the way I may have hurt them, because I can allow myself to be who I am in all things. It is to see both sides. That yes, I may suffer, and I may have suffered at the other's hand, but yes, I have caused suffering too. By not taking responsibility for my own anger and sense of vengeance, however covertly expressed. Sometimes, even concealed to myself. I am equally responsible as are others, as having limited myself by my self-serving beliefs about myself and others. There is nobody to whom this would not apply. Myself, one of the first. I have hurt my own mother and sister to the extent that they have hurt me. I have been powerful and acted powerfully with regards to them, as they have towards me. To the extent that I could not see my responsibility, I am responsible now. I do not want to be a frozen person, unable to see large parts of myself. Everybody has the capacity for aggression and/or submission. Everybody can be harmed and harm. Sensitivity can be every bit as aggressive, albeit, covertly expressed. Passive-aggression is aggression still. The appearance of sensitivity, of submission, can be equally a means to manipulate and to cause hurt. Neither aggression nor submission have anything to do with innocence or lack thereof. Children who behave aggressively on the playground may be victims in their own homes. They may be modeling what has been done to them. And when they have been victimized, they cry too. When my sister tattled about me, telling lies, I may have cried too. I was a highly sensitive child. I remain a sensitive adult. I have also tried to be other things, too. Aggressive children, can be victims as much as the more "sensitive-appearing" children." The expression of sensitivity can be a way to control or dominate a situation. This can be a way to "work" your environment, every bit a strategy as dominance. Power comes in many guises. There was a wonderful book I once read called [U]The Powers of the Weak.[/U] I think the author was Elizabeth Janeway. The only difference between power strategies of weaker groups (and Individuals) is that they are covert. My sister was a tattle. And she crowed in private about how she was able to "win" through presenting herself to herself and others about being the victim of others. When she had contrived and manipulated the entire thing, as if she had been the general in a war. It was aggressive. It was domineering. But it was covert. She controlled it all, with the appearance of victim-hood, when it was dominance and aggression. The only difference is she called it another thing. My sister was able on a limited scale to wield power directly and openly in her work and her life. When she openly had power, unfortunately, she became a bully. Again, I say, there is an element of sadism, the potential to bully in everybody. It is how it is channeled. And how it is dealt with by parents and other adults. I am thinking of my own son here. He was bullied to the point where he had to be put in a non-public school. He was bullied by teachers too. Like I think Insane does, I believe teachers influence bullying, by picking sides. They do so based upon their own psychologies. COPA [/QUOTE]
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