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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 432924" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Welcome, Persephone (love the Greek mythology reference!).</p><p></p><p>I have often said that autism doesn't just run in our family, it gallops (homage to Cary Grant in "Arsenic and Old Lace"). So when I say that your post is familiar in so many ways, please believe me!</p><p></p><p>Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids are all capable of being very different. The underlying issues are - </p><p></p><p>communication</p><p></p><p>social issues</p><p></p><p>splinter skills (often)</p><p></p><p>repetitive behaviours (including facets of echolalia, pressured speech, perseverative speech and behaviours).</p><p></p><p>ADHD symptoms are also common and increasingly, I believe they are part of the whole gamut.</p><p></p><p>Now, that list above is not always present all the time. But they go THROUGH this at some stage and come through it and leave it behind, with varying levels of success over time. For example, difficult child 3 used to have echolalia, but was otherwise non-verbal. He now as a uni-level vocabulary. As for behaviour - he has learnt over time by copying the behaviours of those around him. So if I punished him, he copied tis and tried to punish me the same way. He had no concept of adult vs child. In his mind, however the adults in his world behaved towards him, was the way he was meant to behave in turn. If you hit a kid like this, they learn to hit. If you scold a kid like this, they learn to scold. And they are very, very good at copying you. They get into habits of behaviour really, really fast. I once stopped at the shop for an ice cream one day on the way back from the beach. After that, difficult child 3 expected ice cream every time and felt it was unfair and a break with tradition to not get ice cream each time we headed home from the beach.</p><p></p><p>Splinter skills - we just had a repeat neuropsychologist assessment done on difficult child 3. His splinter skills span the spectrum. His worst score was 1st percentile. His best was 99th. Both really extreme. We know that his real IQ (whatever it may be) cannot be determined with a wide disparity, but whatever it is, it will be closer to the high score than the low, because you can't get an artificially high score with good testing.</p><p></p><p>We can't diagnose on this site, but I can say that diagnosing on the autism spectrum is still inexact. MidWestMom & I each have a son who was given a different diagnosis to begin with. </p><p>Diagnosis, as far as it has related to us, has been as follows:</p><p></p><p>Asperger's is for the spectrum kids who did not have language delay.</p><p></p><p>Autism is the label for spectrum kids who DID have language delay, even if they are now within normal range for language.</p><p>Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified seems to be a category of "somewhere on the spectrum, but with some interesting variations" and is very subjective. Often a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified diagnosis will change later on, either entirely away from autism, or to one of the above two.</p><p></p><p>Hyperlexia (still not well recognised) seems to me to be a subset of both Asperger's and autism - it is a form of high-functioning autism, in my opinion. It is interesting - a child who is often an early reader, but obsessed with letters and/or numbers to the exclusion of everything else. PLUS difficulty in understanding what they read. So for example, before he was 3 years old difficult child 3 could pick up a newspaper or Bible and read it aloud, fluently. But he was not able to converse. Really bizarre, but it gave us some clues as to what to do.</p><p></p><p>My own (unqualified) opinion is that your son is a likely fit for high-functioning autism. I do not feel Asperger's is correct, because the language delay excludes it. Some experts do not worry about the history of language delay; instead, they look at how the child is now and make the diagnosis on that. difficult child 3, for example, often is described as Asperger's by teachers, school counsellors or doctors when they meet him, because he is clearly very intelligent and able to manage linguistically. Now. However, because he has a HISTORY of language delay, the autism label still stands and always will.</p><p></p><p>Now to prognosis - some people view Asperger's as a less severe form of autism. it is not, necessarily. difficult child 3 has a friend who also had language delay and a diagnosis of autism. However, he has been managing at school without any support. His parents didn't want him labelled and because the boy is able to do well enough, they have been able to get away with it. I believe the boy is also hyperlexic, because he learned to talk the same way difficult child 3 did - by learning to read. This friend scores as "mild" in Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) testing. difficult child 3 scores "moderate". difficult child 1 scores as moderate, and has other issues (inability to mentally multi-task) that give him a poorer prognosis, even though he never had language delay and therefore has a diagnosis of Asperger's. difficult child 1's best friend is also Aspie, and a lot more severe. I personally feel that difficult child 3, my autistic son, has more potential to succeed socially and in the workforce than his Aspie older brother.</p><p></p><p>Generally, the brighter the kid, the more they learn to adapt to a semblance of normality, and the better their long-term prognosis. difficult child 3 was not able to be told about his autism diagnosis until he was 8 years old. Later in the year he said to me, "You know - I think I'm getting better at pretending to be normal." We explained about autism to him, by comparing it to computer operating systems. When the printout comes off the computer, you can't tell whether the text document was written up and formatted on a Mac or a easy child. The same document could be done on either type of computer and it could look identical. But the operating instructions to the computer will be very different for a Mac, as for a easy child. And some people have Mac brans while others have easy child brains. Both are good, but they need to be given instructions in the right way in order to function at their best.</p><p></p><p>Some autistics are withdrawn; some are highly social. difficult child 1 is the former, difficult child 3 is the latter. But the social problems in autism do NOT mean that the person is always withdrawn. Just not fully comprehending social issues and often inappropriate. For example, easy child 2/difficult child 2 would want lots of cuddles from me and choose to give me random hugs often at the wrong time. I could be chopping herbs (and risk cutting myself) and she would grab me for a hug. Or I could be talking to someone official at the door, and I would get grabbed for a hug. If I rejected her, she would be very upset and hurt. She was very tactile, seeking out certain textures and fondling them (still does). She found creative ways to hide this in more appropriate acceptable behaviours. Even now she is nearly 25 and married, I still sometimes get a random, "Love you, Mummy," and a delightful hug. She's not underfoot any more, so I value what I get! I have seen her snuggle on the sofa with her best friend, both girls entwined in a cuddle. Nothing sexual about it, just both getting comfort from a prolonged hug. An interesting measure of this - Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) people often do like hugs but they need to have some control over when and how much.</p><p></p><p>Now to your son's behaviour issues - a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid (aka autism in whatever form) needs to be handled a different way, than the way we normally would discipline a child (successfully). What works well in most cases, is disastrous in these kids. The school is obviously doing something right, and you're obviously doing something wrong. You cannot make this kid adapt to your methods, it's clearly not working. One of the hallmarks of these kids generally is a lack of adaptability. So you need to be the one to change. This does not mean you're a bad parent, just that your parenting techniques, whatever they are, good or bad, are not working for this child and are in fact adding to the problems. Of course you are not doing this on purpose, but it is still an issue, BECAUSE your child learns by copying authority figures, and also because your child is far less adaptable than we expect kids to be.</p><p></p><p>Your child is far less able to change, but you are the adult and you are more adaptable. So you have to be the hero here, even if you feel he is being disrespectful. Watch him, observe him, not the times when you are clashing and try to see if you can work out what he is thinking, where this behaviour comes from. When I did this, I quickly realised that the behaviour I thought was disrespect (and needing discipline) was simply my child talking to me the way I talked to him. Actually, the first kid I had trouble with this way was my daughter, easy child 2/difficult child 2. difficult child 1 was always well-behaved, passive in fact. He learned to cope simply by zoning out at school. So the teachers all said he was well-behaved, but not completing his work.</p><p></p><p>School is more structured than home, plus there are a lot of other kids to copy, the classroom behaviour is very sheep-like - flock mentality. At home your son is more free to be an individual, only he doesn't really know how to be.</p><p></p><p>Do try and get your hands on "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. It will help you understand the ODD side of things (and I do not believe in ODD as a stand-alone disorder, I believe it is something induced in our children by behaviours our children are exposed to/discipline methods that are a bad fit). If the ODD has been caused/aggravated by your trying to be strict and controlling, then you need to change direction. It seems paradoxical, but what can happen when you try to really clamp down on these kids, is it becomes a power struggle as they try to assert control for themselves, in conflict with you. You need to find a way to let him have control, in areas where it doesn't matter to you, so he will let you have control where it does matter.</p><p></p><p>To simplify - you need to become your child's facilitator and support, rather than your child's obstacle. In his mind, I mean. Right now he says you're mean, when in your mind you're just doing what parents are expected to do. But right now what he feels is important and needs to be taken on board. </p><p></p><p>There is a way. Once you find it, you will see the really great kid that the school values.</p><p></p><p>I found a really good info site once by Tony Attwood. Look him up, it will cheer you up. Attwood listed the positive qualities of those with Asperger's (it also applies to high-functioning autism).</p><p>Here are a few:</p><p></p><p>Loving</p><p></p><p>Loyal</p><p></p><p>Honest (they learn over time that lying is not one of their skills!)</p><p></p><p>Law-abiding (as long as it is the law as they understand it to be)</p><p></p><p>Motivated to focus really intently for a long time on something that interests them.</p><p></p><p>Autistic kids feel emotion really keenly, but we don't always recognise their feelings when they express them. A deadpan expressionless face can hide a crying heart. Or a happy one.</p><p></p><p>I have seen difficult child 3 with other autistic kids, out on a play-date together. These kids are often very uninhibited about supporting one another and cheering for one another. I remember watching a group of them bowling, and when one of them got a strike, the others all rushed up and hugged him, slapped him on the back and cheered him. They seemed to know when to back off because the hug had lasted long enough, they have learned to recognise each other's cues. These are teens/young adults. Similarly, difficult child 3 has recently started writing stories, but there is a lack of inhibition and self-consciousness in his writing that actually makes him seem more skilled. He writes with the openness of an elementary school child, but with a uni level vocabulary. </p><p></p><p>I used to dread ever having an autistic child. But now I have three of them, I love them to pieces and value them just as they are. </p><p></p><p>When he was younger, a Scripture teacher (we have optional religious instruction in school, it's "opt-out") came up to me and told me that she had prayed with difficult child 3 that his autism would be healed. I was so angry with her about that - she meant well, but she had no idea what a negative message that was sending difficult child 3 about himself. Also, autism doesn't just 'get better' and I did not want difficult child 3's faith (or otherwise) impaired by a lack of cure materialising. A kid's faith is a precious thing. Autistics either cling to faith, or cling to atheism. Very few of them are apathetic about faith or otherwise.</p><p></p><p>I hope this has info for you that you can use. I am glad you're here and hope we can help you.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 432924, member: 1991"] Welcome, Persephone (love the Greek mythology reference!). I have often said that autism doesn't just run in our family, it gallops (homage to Cary Grant in "Arsenic and Old Lace"). So when I say that your post is familiar in so many ways, please believe me! Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids are all capable of being very different. The underlying issues are - communication social issues splinter skills (often) repetitive behaviours (including facets of echolalia, pressured speech, perseverative speech and behaviours). ADHD symptoms are also common and increasingly, I believe they are part of the whole gamut. Now, that list above is not always present all the time. But they go THROUGH this at some stage and come through it and leave it behind, with varying levels of success over time. For example, difficult child 3 used to have echolalia, but was otherwise non-verbal. He now as a uni-level vocabulary. As for behaviour - he has learnt over time by copying the behaviours of those around him. So if I punished him, he copied tis and tried to punish me the same way. He had no concept of adult vs child. In his mind, however the adults in his world behaved towards him, was the way he was meant to behave in turn. If you hit a kid like this, they learn to hit. If you scold a kid like this, they learn to scold. And they are very, very good at copying you. They get into habits of behaviour really, really fast. I once stopped at the shop for an ice cream one day on the way back from the beach. After that, difficult child 3 expected ice cream every time and felt it was unfair and a break with tradition to not get ice cream each time we headed home from the beach. Splinter skills - we just had a repeat neuropsychologist assessment done on difficult child 3. His splinter skills span the spectrum. His worst score was 1st percentile. His best was 99th. Both really extreme. We know that his real IQ (whatever it may be) cannot be determined with a wide disparity, but whatever it is, it will be closer to the high score than the low, because you can't get an artificially high score with good testing. We can't diagnose on this site, but I can say that diagnosing on the autism spectrum is still inexact. MidWestMom & I each have a son who was given a different diagnosis to begin with. Diagnosis, as far as it has related to us, has been as follows: Asperger's is for the spectrum kids who did not have language delay. Autism is the label for spectrum kids who DID have language delay, even if they are now within normal range for language. Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified seems to be a category of "somewhere on the spectrum, but with some interesting variations" and is very subjective. Often a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified diagnosis will change later on, either entirely away from autism, or to one of the above two. Hyperlexia (still not well recognised) seems to me to be a subset of both Asperger's and autism - it is a form of high-functioning autism, in my opinion. It is interesting - a child who is often an early reader, but obsessed with letters and/or numbers to the exclusion of everything else. PLUS difficulty in understanding what they read. So for example, before he was 3 years old difficult child 3 could pick up a newspaper or Bible and read it aloud, fluently. But he was not able to converse. Really bizarre, but it gave us some clues as to what to do. My own (unqualified) opinion is that your son is a likely fit for high-functioning autism. I do not feel Asperger's is correct, because the language delay excludes it. Some experts do not worry about the history of language delay; instead, they look at how the child is now and make the diagnosis on that. difficult child 3, for example, often is described as Asperger's by teachers, school counsellors or doctors when they meet him, because he is clearly very intelligent and able to manage linguistically. Now. However, because he has a HISTORY of language delay, the autism label still stands and always will. Now to prognosis - some people view Asperger's as a less severe form of autism. it is not, necessarily. difficult child 3 has a friend who also had language delay and a diagnosis of autism. However, he has been managing at school without any support. His parents didn't want him labelled and because the boy is able to do well enough, they have been able to get away with it. I believe the boy is also hyperlexic, because he learned to talk the same way difficult child 3 did - by learning to read. This friend scores as "mild" in Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) testing. difficult child 3 scores "moderate". difficult child 1 scores as moderate, and has other issues (inability to mentally multi-task) that give him a poorer prognosis, even though he never had language delay and therefore has a diagnosis of Asperger's. difficult child 1's best friend is also Aspie, and a lot more severe. I personally feel that difficult child 3, my autistic son, has more potential to succeed socially and in the workforce than his Aspie older brother. Generally, the brighter the kid, the more they learn to adapt to a semblance of normality, and the better their long-term prognosis. difficult child 3 was not able to be told about his autism diagnosis until he was 8 years old. Later in the year he said to me, "You know - I think I'm getting better at pretending to be normal." We explained about autism to him, by comparing it to computer operating systems. When the printout comes off the computer, you can't tell whether the text document was written up and formatted on a Mac or a easy child. The same document could be done on either type of computer and it could look identical. But the operating instructions to the computer will be very different for a Mac, as for a easy child. And some people have Mac brans while others have easy child brains. Both are good, but they need to be given instructions in the right way in order to function at their best. Some autistics are withdrawn; some are highly social. difficult child 1 is the former, difficult child 3 is the latter. But the social problems in autism do NOT mean that the person is always withdrawn. Just not fully comprehending social issues and often inappropriate. For example, easy child 2/difficult child 2 would want lots of cuddles from me and choose to give me random hugs often at the wrong time. I could be chopping herbs (and risk cutting myself) and she would grab me for a hug. Or I could be talking to someone official at the door, and I would get grabbed for a hug. If I rejected her, she would be very upset and hurt. She was very tactile, seeking out certain textures and fondling them (still does). She found creative ways to hide this in more appropriate acceptable behaviours. Even now she is nearly 25 and married, I still sometimes get a random, "Love you, Mummy," and a delightful hug. She's not underfoot any more, so I value what I get! I have seen her snuggle on the sofa with her best friend, both girls entwined in a cuddle. Nothing sexual about it, just both getting comfort from a prolonged hug. An interesting measure of this - Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) people often do like hugs but they need to have some control over when and how much. Now to your son's behaviour issues - a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid (aka autism in whatever form) needs to be handled a different way, than the way we normally would discipline a child (successfully). What works well in most cases, is disastrous in these kids. The school is obviously doing something right, and you're obviously doing something wrong. You cannot make this kid adapt to your methods, it's clearly not working. One of the hallmarks of these kids generally is a lack of adaptability. So you need to be the one to change. This does not mean you're a bad parent, just that your parenting techniques, whatever they are, good or bad, are not working for this child and are in fact adding to the problems. Of course you are not doing this on purpose, but it is still an issue, BECAUSE your child learns by copying authority figures, and also because your child is far less adaptable than we expect kids to be. Your child is far less able to change, but you are the adult and you are more adaptable. So you have to be the hero here, even if you feel he is being disrespectful. Watch him, observe him, not the times when you are clashing and try to see if you can work out what he is thinking, where this behaviour comes from. When I did this, I quickly realised that the behaviour I thought was disrespect (and needing discipline) was simply my child talking to me the way I talked to him. Actually, the first kid I had trouble with this way was my daughter, easy child 2/difficult child 2. difficult child 1 was always well-behaved, passive in fact. He learned to cope simply by zoning out at school. So the teachers all said he was well-behaved, but not completing his work. School is more structured than home, plus there are a lot of other kids to copy, the classroom behaviour is very sheep-like - flock mentality. At home your son is more free to be an individual, only he doesn't really know how to be. Do try and get your hands on "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. It will help you understand the ODD side of things (and I do not believe in ODD as a stand-alone disorder, I believe it is something induced in our children by behaviours our children are exposed to/discipline methods that are a bad fit). If the ODD has been caused/aggravated by your trying to be strict and controlling, then you need to change direction. It seems paradoxical, but what can happen when you try to really clamp down on these kids, is it becomes a power struggle as they try to assert control for themselves, in conflict with you. You need to find a way to let him have control, in areas where it doesn't matter to you, so he will let you have control where it does matter. To simplify - you need to become your child's facilitator and support, rather than your child's obstacle. In his mind, I mean. Right now he says you're mean, when in your mind you're just doing what parents are expected to do. But right now what he feels is important and needs to be taken on board. There is a way. Once you find it, you will see the really great kid that the school values. I found a really good info site once by Tony Attwood. Look him up, it will cheer you up. Attwood listed the positive qualities of those with Asperger's (it also applies to high-functioning autism). Here are a few: Loving Loyal Honest (they learn over time that lying is not one of their skills!) Law-abiding (as long as it is the law as they understand it to be) Motivated to focus really intently for a long time on something that interests them. Autistic kids feel emotion really keenly, but we don't always recognise their feelings when they express them. A deadpan expressionless face can hide a crying heart. Or a happy one. I have seen difficult child 3 with other autistic kids, out on a play-date together. These kids are often very uninhibited about supporting one another and cheering for one another. I remember watching a group of them bowling, and when one of them got a strike, the others all rushed up and hugged him, slapped him on the back and cheered him. They seemed to know when to back off because the hug had lasted long enough, they have learned to recognise each other's cues. These are teens/young adults. Similarly, difficult child 3 has recently started writing stories, but there is a lack of inhibition and self-consciousness in his writing that actually makes him seem more skilled. He writes with the openness of an elementary school child, but with a uni level vocabulary. I used to dread ever having an autistic child. But now I have three of them, I love them to pieces and value them just as they are. When he was younger, a Scripture teacher (we have optional religious instruction in school, it's "opt-out") came up to me and told me that she had prayed with difficult child 3 that his autism would be healed. I was so angry with her about that - she meant well, but she had no idea what a negative message that was sending difficult child 3 about himself. Also, autism doesn't just 'get better' and I did not want difficult child 3's faith (or otherwise) impaired by a lack of cure materialising. A kid's faith is a precious thing. Autistics either cling to faith, or cling to atheism. Very few of them are apathetic about faith or otherwise. I hope this has info for you that you can use. I am glad you're here and hope we can help you. Marg [/QUOTE]
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