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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 354297" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Katya, two things I need to tell you here.</p><p></p><p>First - he sounds very egocentric in this. Part of that is the difficult child-ness. Par of it (and please don't jump on me, any of you who are gay) is something I have seen so often in SOME MALE gays - this absolutely intense self-absorption. Really intense, really, unbelievably selfish. One bloke I knew - I often wondered if he was only gay, because he loathed everyone in the world except him, and being gay was the closest he could get to sexual self-absorbtion too. But that was extreme - most of the group I describe (that subset of male gays who are self-absorbed to exclusion of all others) could be otherwise lovely people, but never, ever trust them to have as much compassion for you, as they require you to have for them. It is also this subset of gays that tend to bre most unhappy, because in reality, the world doesn't work the way they want it to; the world is full of egocentric people and there is never enough attention to make these extreme egocentric people happy.</p><p></p><p>Second - when I was in therapy for my own PTSD, I had realised that a lot of my problems stemmed back from childhood and an ongoing sense of not being valued; of actually being ignored, or left to my own devices at times when I really needed support. I felt, for my own sake, that I needed to share this revelation with my mother. Because of her health issues plus the great distance between us, I had to do this over the phone. She was very quiet while I spoke, and for a few seconds when I stopped. Then she said, "I never realised. I didn't know - I am so sorry, if the way we raised you caused you such pain."</p><p>I then realised that while I had needed to tell this to her, I had completely ignored the damage this revelation would do to her. I also had not intended to hurt her, because what I was most hurt by , the people I was most hurt by, did not include my mother. So I talked to her and tried to explain this but I don't think she believed me. She did believe me though, when I was able to name some people outside the family as being a major source or problem for me. I also had to say (and I say this to you now, as I said it to my mother), "You did the best you could do, given the circumstances; the expectations of society at that time; your own life experiences. I am telling you so you know, not so you feel responsible. I do not want you to feel any sense of blame over this. Sometimes things just happen."</p><p></p><p>I realise, of course, that it was wrong of me to try to tell my mother to not feel hurt. Looking back - I am still glad I shared my pain with her. But I wish I could have done it in a less hurtful way. Although with hindsight, I can't think of a way that would have been any better.</p><p></p><p>We're none of us perfect. And where a lot of us go wrong, is we tend to always think that when bad things happen, it is a matter for finding someone to blame. But sometimes (often!) it is not a matter of blame. Not in any way. And while we keep focussing on blame, we are holding ourselves back from moving forward.</p><p></p><p>I know with regard to my own past pain, a lot of me still blames various people. I have fantasised about going back and facing these people. I also know that these fantasies are not very healthy. Maybe a little, to a certain point; but to fully recover, I have to be able to move on.</p><p></p><p>Something you need to be able to share with your son - </p><p></p><p>1) Blame is often a distraction. And blame isn't always even appropriate. Pain happens. Sometimes pain happens because someone else did not do their job - ball bearings left lying around lead to a passerby skidding and breaking an ankle. But while clearing away the ball bearings prevents someone else also being injured, it doesn't cure the broken ankle once it's happened. Knowing why, so you can clean the problem up, is good. If the ball bearings had slipped out of an unknown hole in a bag, then hey, it's just one of those things. It is a very different story, if some person deliberately put ball bearings on the path, to try to cause trouble. But otherwise - blame has only limited purpose.</p><p></p><p>2) You know he's been in pain. But you did the best you could have done at the time. Everything you did, was designed to help your kids grow to be the best they could be. Of course you weren't able to do the job perfectly - none of us can. Of course you acknowledge that you didn't do the job perfectly. All you can say, is you did the job to the best of your ability. And because you did, then yes, it is right to acknowledge that despite your best efforts, pain still happened. But nothing is going to make that pain go away.</p><p></p><p>You have your own pain from your own past. We all do. It is simply not possible to raise a child surrounded by perfection, perfect love, no pain, no distress, always allowing that child to do and have exactly hat he wants. Because actually, that doesn't "raise" anything. Such an upbringing would actually be static, with little learned. </p><p></p><p>Learning is painful. We have to learn the balance between pain and joy, and use it all positively, to help us be the best we can be.</p><p></p><p>It sounds like he still has a lot to learn.</p><p></p><p>I strongly urge you to bend over backwards if necessary, to not give him any excuses to claim you guys rejected him. Because as long as he can blame you, he will not be learning anything and will be setting himself up for long-term relationship failure in his life.</p><p></p><p>This is his first big test, and to pass it he needs to realise that he has to take personal responsibility for some level of his pain. He has to realise he can choose to hold on to the hurt and let it really do damage, or to resolve it and move beyond it.</p><p></p><p>Hang in there, Katya. Try to let go of this, his perceptions of pain are his own responsibility and he's childishly trying to dump the load onto others. It won't make him feel better, sadly.</p><p></p><p>One last anecdote - my eldest brother, when he was about 10, committed some misdeed which he can't remember. My father spanked him with a slipper. My mother remembers seeing the slipper, the other kids saw the slipper. Even my brother can 'see' the slipper, but to this day remains convinced that dad hit him with an iron bar, not the slipper. He knows intellectually it was a slipper, but his fear at the time made it hurt a lot more, and has coloured the memory.</p><p></p><p>What we remember is always subjective, when it comes to our pain.</p><p></p><p>Also, your mother sounds like a genetic resource for your son's own bad behaviour...</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 354297, member: 1991"] Katya, two things I need to tell you here. First - he sounds very egocentric in this. Part of that is the difficult child-ness. Par of it (and please don't jump on me, any of you who are gay) is something I have seen so often in SOME MALE gays - this absolutely intense self-absorption. Really intense, really, unbelievably selfish. One bloke I knew - I often wondered if he was only gay, because he loathed everyone in the world except him, and being gay was the closest he could get to sexual self-absorbtion too. But that was extreme - most of the group I describe (that subset of male gays who are self-absorbed to exclusion of all others) could be otherwise lovely people, but never, ever trust them to have as much compassion for you, as they require you to have for them. It is also this subset of gays that tend to bre most unhappy, because in reality, the world doesn't work the way they want it to; the world is full of egocentric people and there is never enough attention to make these extreme egocentric people happy. Second - when I was in therapy for my own PTSD, I had realised that a lot of my problems stemmed back from childhood and an ongoing sense of not being valued; of actually being ignored, or left to my own devices at times when I really needed support. I felt, for my own sake, that I needed to share this revelation with my mother. Because of her health issues plus the great distance between us, I had to do this over the phone. She was very quiet while I spoke, and for a few seconds when I stopped. Then she said, "I never realised. I didn't know - I am so sorry, if the way we raised you caused you such pain." I then realised that while I had needed to tell this to her, I had completely ignored the damage this revelation would do to her. I also had not intended to hurt her, because what I was most hurt by , the people I was most hurt by, did not include my mother. So I talked to her and tried to explain this but I don't think she believed me. She did believe me though, when I was able to name some people outside the family as being a major source or problem for me. I also had to say (and I say this to you now, as I said it to my mother), "You did the best you could do, given the circumstances; the expectations of society at that time; your own life experiences. I am telling you so you know, not so you feel responsible. I do not want you to feel any sense of blame over this. Sometimes things just happen." I realise, of course, that it was wrong of me to try to tell my mother to not feel hurt. Looking back - I am still glad I shared my pain with her. But I wish I could have done it in a less hurtful way. Although with hindsight, I can't think of a way that would have been any better. We're none of us perfect. And where a lot of us go wrong, is we tend to always think that when bad things happen, it is a matter for finding someone to blame. But sometimes (often!) it is not a matter of blame. Not in any way. And while we keep focussing on blame, we are holding ourselves back from moving forward. I know with regard to my own past pain, a lot of me still blames various people. I have fantasised about going back and facing these people. I also know that these fantasies are not very healthy. Maybe a little, to a certain point; but to fully recover, I have to be able to move on. Something you need to be able to share with your son - 1) Blame is often a distraction. And blame isn't always even appropriate. Pain happens. Sometimes pain happens because someone else did not do their job - ball bearings left lying around lead to a passerby skidding and breaking an ankle. But while clearing away the ball bearings prevents someone else also being injured, it doesn't cure the broken ankle once it's happened. Knowing why, so you can clean the problem up, is good. If the ball bearings had slipped out of an unknown hole in a bag, then hey, it's just one of those things. It is a very different story, if some person deliberately put ball bearings on the path, to try to cause trouble. But otherwise - blame has only limited purpose. 2) You know he's been in pain. But you did the best you could have done at the time. Everything you did, was designed to help your kids grow to be the best they could be. Of course you weren't able to do the job perfectly - none of us can. Of course you acknowledge that you didn't do the job perfectly. All you can say, is you did the job to the best of your ability. And because you did, then yes, it is right to acknowledge that despite your best efforts, pain still happened. But nothing is going to make that pain go away. You have your own pain from your own past. We all do. It is simply not possible to raise a child surrounded by perfection, perfect love, no pain, no distress, always allowing that child to do and have exactly hat he wants. Because actually, that doesn't "raise" anything. Such an upbringing would actually be static, with little learned. Learning is painful. We have to learn the balance between pain and joy, and use it all positively, to help us be the best we can be. It sounds like he still has a lot to learn. I strongly urge you to bend over backwards if necessary, to not give him any excuses to claim you guys rejected him. Because as long as he can blame you, he will not be learning anything and will be setting himself up for long-term relationship failure in his life. This is his first big test, and to pass it he needs to realise that he has to take personal responsibility for some level of his pain. He has to realise he can choose to hold on to the hurt and let it really do damage, or to resolve it and move beyond it. Hang in there, Katya. Try to let go of this, his perceptions of pain are his own responsibility and he's childishly trying to dump the load onto others. It won't make him feel better, sadly. One last anecdote - my eldest brother, when he was about 10, committed some misdeed which he can't remember. My father spanked him with a slipper. My mother remembers seeing the slipper, the other kids saw the slipper. Even my brother can 'see' the slipper, but to this day remains convinced that dad hit him with an iron bar, not the slipper. He knows intellectually it was a slipper, but his fear at the time made it hurt a lot more, and has coloured the memory. What we remember is always subjective, when it comes to our pain. Also, your mother sounds like a genetic resource for your son's own bad behaviour... Marg [/QUOTE]
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