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<blockquote data-quote="Copabanana" data-source="post: 740272" data-attributes="member: 18958"><p>I agree. But the thing is, both of us know multiple people who do not. They blame others. They avoid consequences. They want it both ways. In fact this is kind of good description of both the ego defense mechanisms, and personality disorders.</p><p></p><p>I think that holding to the very true thing, that life has consequences, period, could be crazy making. Because it is as likely as not that our sons, our children do have personality disorders from which they are unlikely to recover, and that our lives with them, will be fraught with conflict if we insist that they accept the consequences of their behaviors, or else. What if they are constitutionally limited from doing so, by their personalities? What would our own rigidity do to our relationship with our children?</p><p></p><p>I think Lil is a good model here. I have heard no evidence her son has a personality disorder, but Lil is accepting him as he is, and valuing the relationship they have. She is also validating and valuing her son's choices. Which have been stellar of late. But what shifted, is her son left her area, and he made a life. He met a girl, and with that, everything changed. He changed. I think anybody on this board if they told the truth,was surprised, if they told the truth. It was just.like.that. (I am so happy for her.)</p><p></p><p>I do not know how I feel about all of this, this accepting of consequences, which in theory and reality is unavoidable, to avoid great cost to everybody.</p><p></p><p>But I have insisted my son change. It has come to naught. And I have insisted he leave. And this has led to great suffering on his part. And he gets worse. And thus, I suffer and my life gets harder. This is not an argument to not have boundaries, or to not insist on consequences. Not at all. It is a reflection. Nothing more. Because I want to have relationship with my son.</p><p></p><p>My son loves the word "consequences." He uses it like this: <em>what is my consequence? </em>Like a child would think of a punishment. Give it to me, and lets get this over with. Like hail marys after confession. Something that an authority doles out, and then there is a clean slate. No learning. Judgement and punishment are applied externally. I just hate that way of thinking. Childish thinking. Never any responsibility to monitor and govern behavior and to take responsibility.</p><p></p><p>What if this never changes? It might not. So far. There has been no learning by my son. What will change? What would get it to change? The only thing that comes to mind, is fatherhood. M and I both believe that paradoxically my son would respond to being a parent. But there is no remote possibility on the horizon. I believe my son has given up.</p><p></p><p>My musing here is about what is our game plan if this is it? If there is minimal or no changing. And the change has to come from us. What is my game plan? I want one. I do not want to reject or distance my son for the rest of my life. I want to accept him, but be defended. This would be real growth on my part.</p><p></p><p>Thank you very much, Elsi.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Copabanana, post: 740272, member: 18958"] I agree. But the thing is, both of us know multiple people who do not. They blame others. They avoid consequences. They want it both ways. In fact this is kind of good description of both the ego defense mechanisms, and personality disorders. I think that holding to the very true thing, that life has consequences, period, could be crazy making. Because it is as likely as not that our sons, our children do have personality disorders from which they are unlikely to recover, and that our lives with them, will be fraught with conflict if we insist that they accept the consequences of their behaviors, or else. What if they are constitutionally limited from doing so, by their personalities? What would our own rigidity do to our relationship with our children? I think Lil is a good model here. I have heard no evidence her son has a personality disorder, but Lil is accepting him as he is, and valuing the relationship they have. She is also validating and valuing her son's choices. Which have been stellar of late. But what shifted, is her son left her area, and he made a life. He met a girl, and with that, everything changed. He changed. I think anybody on this board if they told the truth,was surprised, if they told the truth. It was just.like.that. (I am so happy for her.) I do not know how I feel about all of this, this accepting of consequences, which in theory and reality is unavoidable, to avoid great cost to everybody. But I have insisted my son change. It has come to naught. And I have insisted he leave. And this has led to great suffering on his part. And he gets worse. And thus, I suffer and my life gets harder. This is not an argument to not have boundaries, or to not insist on consequences. Not at all. It is a reflection. Nothing more. Because I want to have relationship with my son. My son loves the word "consequences." He uses it like this: [I]what is my consequence? [/I]Like a child would think of a punishment. Give it to me, and lets get this over with. Like hail marys after confession. Something that an authority doles out, and then there is a clean slate. No learning. Judgement and punishment are applied externally. I just hate that way of thinking. Childish thinking. Never any responsibility to monitor and govern behavior and to take responsibility. What if this never changes? It might not. So far. There has been no learning by my son. What will change? What would get it to change? The only thing that comes to mind, is fatherhood. M and I both believe that paradoxically my son would respond to being a parent. But there is no remote possibility on the horizon. I believe my son has given up. My musing here is about what is our game plan if this is it? If there is minimal or no changing. And the change has to come from us. What is my game plan? I want one. I do not want to reject or distance my son for the rest of my life. I want to accept him, but be defended. This would be real growth on my part. Thank you very much, Elsi. [/QUOTE]
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