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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 305083" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Trish, "what ifs" aren't going to help you. You did what you felt was right at the time, and who knows? If you had done things differently, they may not have been any better. They may have been worse. You just don't know. What matters is how you go on from here.</p><p></p><p>From what you post here - the Job Services Counsellor saying you should have control of his money; how can this be organised? What if he refuses? Does this mean that she can order an over-ride? Or is him getting Disability going to be conditional on him giving you control? They can always recommend against him being granted Disability, I suppose. It's not an issue we had...</p><p></p><p>If this can be done, try to set up a system like we had with difficult child 1. I described it earlier. We set it up so he had to take cash out to pay us what he owed us, rather than us organising it as a direct debit. But you might need to begin with direct debit, until he gets used to a routine of sorts. The reason we did it our way (difficult child 1 withdrawing the money and bringing it to us) was to teach him personal responsiblity and independence.</p><p></p><p>The counsellor assessing him as a Peter Pan - that is what I was saying before; we cop criticism for apparently "babying" our difficult children, but sometimes they simply can't cope with the level of personal responsibility others their age handle all the time. We need, instead, to lead them into that level of responsibility a dribble at a time. Example - when difficult child 1 was 16 and first went on Disability, he had access to his bank account via card (it seems it's the only option for anyone now - difficult child 3 has his own account card, thankfully he is much more personally financially responsible than his older brother was at the same age).</p><p>So difficult child 1 was on Disability, but going to and from school each day would repeatedly check the balance on his account at the ATM. He quickly ran up the maximum monthly number of transactions and began incurring fees, purely from checking his balance obsessively. So we talked to the bank and had them overturned. Plus he had to pay us board fortnightly, after which he was allowed to spend whatever was left in his account. But if he checked his account on the in-between days (3 days out of every month) he would spend whatever was there, without thinking, "I have to wait three days until the bank transfers from my working account to the investment account."</p><p></p><p>So to begin with, to help train him, we set the computer with reminders to get him to give us his card for those three days until the transfer was done. Then we would give him his card with the reminder, "The first money you withdraw, is the $50 board you owe us. After that, you can spend what is left." What was generally left was another $50 a fortnight. Out of that he had to budget for gifts for Christmas and birthdays for family & friends, as well as anything he wanted. A lot of things he wanted cost more than $50 so he had to learn (the hard way) to leave money in his account and save up in his every day account, so eventually he could withdraw the saved balance to buy what he wanted.</p><p></p><p>Disability gets paid into a bank account. Generally it's a ready access account, the sort that a person can get at with their debit card. The payments go in on a Thursday. Sometimes it's a Friday. So if you arrange with the bank to transfer to an investment account (we used Incentive Saver) you have to be SURE that they don't try to transfer the money BEFORE the Disability has gone in. Otherwise it incurs a dishonour fee. That's why we had the three day delay. So Disability goes in (mostly) on a Thursday. Friday for transfer - too risky, in case Disability is late. So we set up transfer for Monday. We would hold the card until Tuesday afternoon, in case the bank was late to transfer (it happened a couple of times, difficult child 1 assumed all the money was his to spend freely, which he did, then incurred another dishonour fee when the bank finally tried to transfer only to find difficult child 1 had spent it all).</p><p></p><p>It took difficult child 1 several years to learn to CHECK the actual amount there, and to think, "Has the transfer happened yet?" before going hog-wild with spending.</p><p></p><p>How we set up the amount - we sat with difficult child 1 and discussed his financial obligations. We also discussed how he wanted to handle them - direct transfer to our account, or him manually withdrawing it and giving it to us. Did he trust himself enough to remember, and also to not be tempted by the pocketful of cash on his way home from the ATM?</p><p>We then allowed a moderate amount for spending money for the fortnight. How much did he think he needed? What for? He had to at least partly develop his own budget. </p><p>We then looked at how much was left, and made THAT amount, the quantity to be transferred to the investment account.</p><p>And it was the investment account (Incentive Saver, in difficult child 1's case) that we set up with multiple signatures, difficult child 1 to be mandatory signatory (so he would know that nobody could access his money without him also signing). But his signature alone would not be enough.</p><p></p><p>As a result, the Incentive Saver was getting a deposit twice a month. Interest accrued monthly as long as no withdrawal was made that month. He had to negotiate with me to get access to Incentive Saver money. I allowed it when he wanted to buy a car; when he wanted to buy an engagement ring for daughter in law; when he wanted to buy an expensive replica Star Wars light saber from a convention.</p><p></p><p>Even a very close friend was critical of the level of control we exerted over difficult child 1 and his management of his finances. But it had been Centrelink who recommended we do this, and frankly I am very glad we did it this way. It took him years longer than "normal" people, but he HAS learned and over those years we have been able to slowly ease back on the reins and let him slowly have more and more control. This year we finally knew he had made wonderful progress, when he did the bulk of the paperwork on his own tax return.</p><p></p><p>As for how you tell your child about their disability - it's a tricky one. </p><p></p><p>We told our kids (and as we tell them and other people, autism doesn't just run in our family, it gallops) that autism is simply a different way of brain function. While it does mean that some tasks can be more difficult, there are other tasks that our autistic kids find easier than most people. A kid with ADHD might be a terrible fidget, but when that kid focusses on something they love, they are able to do so to a very intense level. We taught them to accept the difficulties, to recognise that there can be different ways to do a task (instead of it being impossible) and that there are also gifts, unexpected delights that compensate.</p><p></p><p>Also, I am physically disabled. The kids see that while I can't go on a three mile hike, I can still use my brain and I have other things I can do well. I don't walk as far and I have to walk slower, which has meant I find more four-leafed clovers because I move slowly enough to see them before I move on.</p><p></p><p>Trish, I don't know if it will help, but my boys accept that they have a disability. This disability is sometimes adminstered (byvarious organisations) as an intellectual disability, and sometimes as a neurological disability. But despite it being at times called "intellectual disability" it does NOT mean they are stupid, or "retarded". Both my boys score very high in IQ scores. Between top 10&#37; and top 0.5% of the population.</p><p></p><p>If at any time you told DS19 that he was disabled, or even if you had said he had an intellectual disability, that was NO REASON for anyone to remove him from you. WTH?</p><p></p><p>Perhaps a big part of the problem was the conflict between you trying to treat him as 'normal' so he could have the chance to blend in and do his best, and the very real problems of his own realisation that no matter how hard he tried to be normal, he simply was not able to be, he was set up for failure. This leads to anger, frustration and a need to lash out and punish whoever he can make responsible.</p><p></p><p>Despite trying to help difficult child 1 over the hurdle of "You have a disability, but it needn't be a handicap unless you choose to make it so," there were times when he also went into denial and tried to live as if there was no problem. He would pretend to take his medications, he would drink caffeinated drinks (which he knew in his case would negate his medications and also make him violent) andwould leave the room if the conversation or a TV program touched on the subject of autism, Asperger's or ADHD.</p><p></p><p>As for your draft notes for the counsellor - I would always make sure the rent you charge is a lot less than what he would have to pay anywhere else. That gets you away from any accusations of "You're just trying to make money out of me." You just have to show him how much rents are in your area, for comparison. We mostly used the extra money from difficult child 1, to pay for large lumps of protein. Teen boys eat a lot, and his board would pay for the occasional side of lamb we'd order in. I would cook in bulk and always have food available. It's amazing how much more malleable the teen males can be, when they have a full stomach!</p><p></p><p>Seriously, I would cut his rent WAY back, to half or a quarter even, of what is the usual for that level of accomodation in your area. Because you are wanting him to do chores, and those chores are part-payment of rent. Calculate the labour costs, how much it would cost you to hire someone. Remember, he is unskilled labour. If you findhe's not doing his chores, then of course he needs to pay for someone else to do them. Sometimes the someone else can be a sibling - it's amazing the hoops someone would jump through, if they're getting paid to do chores.</p><p></p><p>Or you could charge what you do for rent but give him a discount according to hours worked. It's a thought - consider it, talk to the counsellor. Frankly, do your utmost to remove the bulk of his disposable income out of his reach. Into an investment account is preferable to charging him higher rents, because the best outcome here is NOT him leaving home and being thrown in the deep end, it's him staying at home but following the rules. Then as he learns to live right, having him increasingly develop independence until he can leave home SAFELY.</p><p></p><p>Trish, I think you need to have a written contract with him. Part of the contract should include what you have drafted, part should also include your being included as someone permitted to discuss his case with tdocs etc. But you also MUST include what YOU wiull provide for him in return. It has to be two-way.</p><p></p><p>At the moment, you want him to pay board etc, to do chores, to not drink/smoke/do drugs on the premises. But he needs to see, in writing, what you will do for him in return. </p><p>Example - providing the van (roof over the head, bed to sleep in). Electricity (partly paid for in money, partly earned through chores). Transport (petrol money). Frankly at the moment, I can't see enough swinging back his way. If he instead chose to go live in a flat somewhere, he would be free to drink, smoke and do drugs as much as he wanted, free to come and go as he pleased, free to play electronic games all the time. No chores. No restrictions. Buy fast food, not bother washing clothes/body. As he sees it, he'd be better off living away from home away from all the rules. </p><p></p><p>He needs to see that he is better off at home, sufficiently better off for him to follow your rules and stay, rather than move out and not do so well.</p><p></p><p>Talk to the counsellor, see what you can work out as a draft. But Explosive Child guidelines also make this point - you have to make it obviously a two-way street. You set the rules, sure, but you also have to give something in return. Quid pro quo. You want something from him, he has to want something from you bad enough, to do what you want. And it needs to be mutually agreed.</p><p></p><p>I think your notes are a good start.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 305083, member: 1991"] Trish, "what ifs" aren't going to help you. You did what you felt was right at the time, and who knows? If you had done things differently, they may not have been any better. They may have been worse. You just don't know. What matters is how you go on from here. From what you post here - the Job Services Counsellor saying you should have control of his money; how can this be organised? What if he refuses? Does this mean that she can order an over-ride? Or is him getting Disability going to be conditional on him giving you control? They can always recommend against him being granted Disability, I suppose. It's not an issue we had... If this can be done, try to set up a system like we had with difficult child 1. I described it earlier. We set it up so he had to take cash out to pay us what he owed us, rather than us organising it as a direct debit. But you might need to begin with direct debit, until he gets used to a routine of sorts. The reason we did it our way (difficult child 1 withdrawing the money and bringing it to us) was to teach him personal responsiblity and independence. The counsellor assessing him as a Peter Pan - that is what I was saying before; we cop criticism for apparently "babying" our difficult children, but sometimes they simply can't cope with the level of personal responsibility others their age handle all the time. We need, instead, to lead them into that level of responsibility a dribble at a time. Example - when difficult child 1 was 16 and first went on Disability, he had access to his bank account via card (it seems it's the only option for anyone now - difficult child 3 has his own account card, thankfully he is much more personally financially responsible than his older brother was at the same age). So difficult child 1 was on Disability, but going to and from school each day would repeatedly check the balance on his account at the ATM. He quickly ran up the maximum monthly number of transactions and began incurring fees, purely from checking his balance obsessively. So we talked to the bank and had them overturned. Plus he had to pay us board fortnightly, after which he was allowed to spend whatever was left in his account. But if he checked his account on the in-between days (3 days out of every month) he would spend whatever was there, without thinking, "I have to wait three days until the bank transfers from my working account to the investment account." So to begin with, to help train him, we set the computer with reminders to get him to give us his card for those three days until the transfer was done. Then we would give him his card with the reminder, "The first money you withdraw, is the $50 board you owe us. After that, you can spend what is left." What was generally left was another $50 a fortnight. Out of that he had to budget for gifts for Christmas and birthdays for family & friends, as well as anything he wanted. A lot of things he wanted cost more than $50 so he had to learn (the hard way) to leave money in his account and save up in his every day account, so eventually he could withdraw the saved balance to buy what he wanted. Disability gets paid into a bank account. Generally it's a ready access account, the sort that a person can get at with their debit card. The payments go in on a Thursday. Sometimes it's a Friday. So if you arrange with the bank to transfer to an investment account (we used Incentive Saver) you have to be SURE that they don't try to transfer the money BEFORE the Disability has gone in. Otherwise it incurs a dishonour fee. That's why we had the three day delay. So Disability goes in (mostly) on a Thursday. Friday for transfer - too risky, in case Disability is late. So we set up transfer for Monday. We would hold the card until Tuesday afternoon, in case the bank was late to transfer (it happened a couple of times, difficult child 1 assumed all the money was his to spend freely, which he did, then incurred another dishonour fee when the bank finally tried to transfer only to find difficult child 1 had spent it all). It took difficult child 1 several years to learn to CHECK the actual amount there, and to think, "Has the transfer happened yet?" before going hog-wild with spending. How we set up the amount - we sat with difficult child 1 and discussed his financial obligations. We also discussed how he wanted to handle them - direct transfer to our account, or him manually withdrawing it and giving it to us. Did he trust himself enough to remember, and also to not be tempted by the pocketful of cash on his way home from the ATM? We then allowed a moderate amount for spending money for the fortnight. How much did he think he needed? What for? He had to at least partly develop his own budget. We then looked at how much was left, and made THAT amount, the quantity to be transferred to the investment account. And it was the investment account (Incentive Saver, in difficult child 1's case) that we set up with multiple signatures, difficult child 1 to be mandatory signatory (so he would know that nobody could access his money without him also signing). But his signature alone would not be enough. As a result, the Incentive Saver was getting a deposit twice a month. Interest accrued monthly as long as no withdrawal was made that month. He had to negotiate with me to get access to Incentive Saver money. I allowed it when he wanted to buy a car; when he wanted to buy an engagement ring for daughter in law; when he wanted to buy an expensive replica Star Wars light saber from a convention. Even a very close friend was critical of the level of control we exerted over difficult child 1 and his management of his finances. But it had been Centrelink who recommended we do this, and frankly I am very glad we did it this way. It took him years longer than "normal" people, but he HAS learned and over those years we have been able to slowly ease back on the reins and let him slowly have more and more control. This year we finally knew he had made wonderful progress, when he did the bulk of the paperwork on his own tax return. As for how you tell your child about their disability - it's a tricky one. We told our kids (and as we tell them and other people, autism doesn't just run in our family, it gallops) that autism is simply a different way of brain function. While it does mean that some tasks can be more difficult, there are other tasks that our autistic kids find easier than most people. A kid with ADHD might be a terrible fidget, but when that kid focusses on something they love, they are able to do so to a very intense level. We taught them to accept the difficulties, to recognise that there can be different ways to do a task (instead of it being impossible) and that there are also gifts, unexpected delights that compensate. Also, I am physically disabled. The kids see that while I can't go on a three mile hike, I can still use my brain and I have other things I can do well. I don't walk as far and I have to walk slower, which has meant I find more four-leafed clovers because I move slowly enough to see them before I move on. Trish, I don't know if it will help, but my boys accept that they have a disability. This disability is sometimes adminstered (byvarious organisations) as an intellectual disability, and sometimes as a neurological disability. But despite it being at times called "intellectual disability" it does NOT mean they are stupid, or "retarded". Both my boys score very high in IQ scores. Between top 10% and top 0.5% of the population. If at any time you told DS19 that he was disabled, or even if you had said he had an intellectual disability, that was NO REASON for anyone to remove him from you. WTH? Perhaps a big part of the problem was the conflict between you trying to treat him as 'normal' so he could have the chance to blend in and do his best, and the very real problems of his own realisation that no matter how hard he tried to be normal, he simply was not able to be, he was set up for failure. This leads to anger, frustration and a need to lash out and punish whoever he can make responsible. Despite trying to help difficult child 1 over the hurdle of "You have a disability, but it needn't be a handicap unless you choose to make it so," there were times when he also went into denial and tried to live as if there was no problem. He would pretend to take his medications, he would drink caffeinated drinks (which he knew in his case would negate his medications and also make him violent) andwould leave the room if the conversation or a TV program touched on the subject of autism, Asperger's or ADHD. As for your draft notes for the counsellor - I would always make sure the rent you charge is a lot less than what he would have to pay anywhere else. That gets you away from any accusations of "You're just trying to make money out of me." You just have to show him how much rents are in your area, for comparison. We mostly used the extra money from difficult child 1, to pay for large lumps of protein. Teen boys eat a lot, and his board would pay for the occasional side of lamb we'd order in. I would cook in bulk and always have food available. It's amazing how much more malleable the teen males can be, when they have a full stomach! Seriously, I would cut his rent WAY back, to half or a quarter even, of what is the usual for that level of accomodation in your area. Because you are wanting him to do chores, and those chores are part-payment of rent. Calculate the labour costs, how much it would cost you to hire someone. Remember, he is unskilled labour. If you findhe's not doing his chores, then of course he needs to pay for someone else to do them. Sometimes the someone else can be a sibling - it's amazing the hoops someone would jump through, if they're getting paid to do chores. Or you could charge what you do for rent but give him a discount according to hours worked. It's a thought - consider it, talk to the counsellor. Frankly, do your utmost to remove the bulk of his disposable income out of his reach. Into an investment account is preferable to charging him higher rents, because the best outcome here is NOT him leaving home and being thrown in the deep end, it's him staying at home but following the rules. Then as he learns to live right, having him increasingly develop independence until he can leave home SAFELY. Trish, I think you need to have a written contract with him. Part of the contract should include what you have drafted, part should also include your being included as someone permitted to discuss his case with tdocs etc. But you also MUST include what YOU wiull provide for him in return. It has to be two-way. At the moment, you want him to pay board etc, to do chores, to not drink/smoke/do drugs on the premises. But he needs to see, in writing, what you will do for him in return. Example - providing the van (roof over the head, bed to sleep in). Electricity (partly paid for in money, partly earned through chores). Transport (petrol money). Frankly at the moment, I can't see enough swinging back his way. If he instead chose to go live in a flat somewhere, he would be free to drink, smoke and do drugs as much as he wanted, free to come and go as he pleased, free to play electronic games all the time. No chores. No restrictions. Buy fast food, not bother washing clothes/body. As he sees it, he'd be better off living away from home away from all the rules. He needs to see that he is better off at home, sufficiently better off for him to follow your rules and stay, rather than move out and not do so well. Talk to the counsellor, see what you can work out as a draft. But Explosive Child guidelines also make this point - you have to make it obviously a two-way street. You set the rules, sure, but you also have to give something in return. Quid pro quo. You want something from him, he has to want something from you bad enough, to do what you want. And it needs to be mutually agreed. I think your notes are a good start. Marg [/QUOTE]
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