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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 260891" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Oh, this is screaming at me. So much of what you describe, is hwat we have experienced across the board with our kids, except for easy child. </p><p></p><p>A couple of points I must make here - </p><p></p><p>1) We cannot diagnose on this board, no matter how much a particualr case screams at us. However, we can say to you, "Please get this child checked out for the possibility of Asperger's or autism, it needs to be ruled out." There are other possibilities, but I would put Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) in some form, high on the list to consider.</p><p></p><p>2) If you can, get her father to lurk here/post here also. It has helped me and my hhusband immensely, becaause even though we already communicated well (or so we thought) sometimes what I might type here consolidates my thoughts in a way I haven't successfully communicated to him (even if I think I have). Similarly, he reads what other people respond and he might find something particularly significant that I might miss. Even the fun stuff in Watercooler - husband & I will talk about it when we're together. He heard a joke the other day and said, "We MUST PM that to *Star." I suggested not, only because it was a VERY inappropriate joke, no matter how funny. </p><p>This board has saved our sanity and is now an important part of our life as a family. And our communicartion with each other - it has helped us be even more on the same page. Wonderful.</p><p></p><p>Now I have a couple of questions for you,</p><p></p><p>1) You say Brianna tells lies - what kind of lies? And how do you know she is lying? This is important.</p><p></p><p>2) What do you know of the other kids and how they are getting along? Is there any contact with her siblings? Are any of them struggling in this way?</p><p></p><p>The problem with automatically thinking, "She needs to be in therapy again," is that with her history, it is natural to assume that she is like this because of her rough start in life. But you could be dealing with chicken-or-egg situation here. A Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid born into a neglectful household is going to have a rough time. The child will present as abused (often IS abused, especially by their standards and especially if not given access to what they need, or not having it recognised). A Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid born into a loving, caring household can still sometimes SEEM to be suffering from neglect or abuse. We got accused initially of being neglectful, with difficult child 3. CHild protective services were called on us and we had to undergo a lot of investigations. Once I got over my fear of being blamed inappropriately, I was grateful because it was opening doors for assessments and testing, which suddenly got slammed again when they dropped the case.</p><p>My point here is - her mother sounds like she wasn't up to the job, but if Brianna was born Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) (yet to be checked out) it would have greatly increased the liklihood of inappropriate management of the child. Therapy won't fix any underlying problem, it will only help the overlay, and then only if you're indepedently working to help her with whatever-it-is.</p><p></p><p>I can understand your husband and the granmother thinking she's a perfect child - to them, she may present as such. And perhaps when she is given exactly the environment she craves, she is capable of neatly slotting in so her behaviour doesn't stand out as obvious. They accept her and give her instinctively what she wants. You, for some reason, do not - perhaps you are seeing something that concerns you and you're rocking the boat just that little bit to see what happens, and what you then see really concerns you - and they're unwilling to rock the boat even a little, because "if it ain't broke, why fix it?"</p><p></p><p></p><p>If MWM & I (and those of the rest of us also thinking it could be Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)) are right, then you need to make some changes in order to help her. You've come a long way with her, but your mindset (and the therapist's) has been focussed on her problems being due to early neglect and whatever. You need to consider a thinknig shift towards, "Maybe there's something she was born with," in order to help her adapt.</p><p></p><p>I do not intend this as criticism. I am speaking from experience - we all want our kids to do well, and so when we have a kid like this we try to handle it by pushing them firmly in the direction they should be going. I made mistakes like this with difficult child 1. He now sees how I handle difficult child 3 and I know he resents it, even though he sees how vlauable it is. He is jealous, he admits it, he wishes I had got my act together a bit sooner, is all. </p><p></p><p>What you need to do - first, watch. Take notes. See the things she likes to do, the things she likes to collect. If you can without triggering a meltdown, ask her why. Again, take notes. She is a product of her nature and her nurture. Her nurture - she had a rough start. her nature - she may have been born with something like Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) (or similar) or her nurture could have triggered other problems now built-in to her makeup. THis is why you need an evaluation - a neuropsychologist assessment as a priority. </p><p></p><p>That's point 2 - a neuropsychologist assessment. If her dad and grandma are resistant to this, point out that it will help pinpoint just how smart she is, in the areas she is doing well. It will also help head off any academic problems which are likely o surface later on (perhaps as a result of her rough start). OK, that's what you tell him. Because they alone are good enough reasons, if you have a child who is clearly brilliant at least in some areas.</p><p>But what often can happen with a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid - they get to acertain point in their schooling, and the work becomes more complex, more abstract and they hit an academic brick wall and suddenly begin to do really badly. It's too late to panic then. With advance diagnosis and support, this can be minimised and often ways found around the problem. The academic brick wall can happen at a range of ages (depending on exactly how severe the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) is). For difficult child 1, it happened at about age 13. For difficult child 3, it happened last year, at 14. For easy child 2/difficult child 2, it happened in senior high school (after an earlier brick wall before she was diagnosed, when she was 8). The brick wall can be climbed, but you do better with expert help who can tell you where the footholds are.</p><p></p><p>USe whatever resources you canaccess (ie the school) to get some sort of assessment done now. it won't be perfect but when you are back on your feet you will at least have a starting point and further testing should simply piggyback onto what was already done, and therefore be cheaper. Kids shouldn't be tested too often (because ten all that gets tested, is how good the kid is at doing tests). However, previous testing can be reevaluated and sometimess new, more detailed tests can be added to the list. It's a bit like doing some athletic events such as foot race and hurdles, then someone elsecomes along and says, I don't need you to do the foot race or hurdles again, we've already recorded your times for those, but your performance in the hurdles makes us think that some data on your performance in long jump, high jump and maybe even pole vault, would be really useful."</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile, if you choose to use this as your working hypothesis, there are things you can do now, yourselves, without it costing you a cent.</p><p></p><p>Step 1 - read "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. Even if people don't think she's explosive. There are other books also, but I feel for you this would be a good start. Maybe for your husband if he could handle the idea, read "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time" by Mark Haddon. It's fiction, but written from the point of view of a 15 year old boy with Asperger's. Read anything by Temple Grandin or Tony Attwood.</p><p></p><p>Step 2 - back off from pushing her for a while, and see how you go. Again, do this as you observe and record. Try to get others to also record. Do a PMI - that's Plus, Minus, INteresting (these are the categories you make notes on). Take note of who she gets on well with, who they are, how old they are, what they are interested in. I suspect you will find she DOES have friends but they are possibly bright or odd kids much younger than her, or some surprising adults in her environment.</p><p></p><p>Step 3 - find out what makes her feel calm and happy. Do not restrict her access to this. Someone on another thread mentioned that her son likes to wear gloves and have his gloves in his pocket - so for a kid like this, you have spare gloves available. difficult child 3 likes to blow bubbles, so we have lots of little bubble bottles (the kind they hand out at weddings) scattered around. He tops them up with dishwashing liquid and used to take one to school (it was in his IEP). One day at school he left his bubble bottle in the classroom and a teacher refused to let him go fetch it, then put him on detention for the resultant meltdown. That's an example of what NOT to do. difficult child 3 is older now, is no longer so dependent on these things, but he is very dependent on other things. It varies. We watch, we support. Over time, we help him wean off but always he will need something.</p><p></p><p>I'll shut up now. I could go on and on.</p><p></p><p>I return to my most important question - your daughter's lies. Can you give us more detail here?</p><p></p><p>Sorry you need us but glad you found us.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 260891, member: 1991"] Oh, this is screaming at me. So much of what you describe, is hwat we have experienced across the board with our kids, except for easy child. A couple of points I must make here - 1) We cannot diagnose on this board, no matter how much a particualr case screams at us. However, we can say to you, "Please get this child checked out for the possibility of Asperger's or autism, it needs to be ruled out." There are other possibilities, but I would put Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) in some form, high on the list to consider. 2) If you can, get her father to lurk here/post here also. It has helped me and my hhusband immensely, becaause even though we already communicated well (or so we thought) sometimes what I might type here consolidates my thoughts in a way I haven't successfully communicated to him (even if I think I have). Similarly, he reads what other people respond and he might find something particularly significant that I might miss. Even the fun stuff in Watercooler - husband & I will talk about it when we're together. He heard a joke the other day and said, "We MUST PM that to *Star." I suggested not, only because it was a VERY inappropriate joke, no matter how funny. This board has saved our sanity and is now an important part of our life as a family. And our communicartion with each other - it has helped us be even more on the same page. Wonderful. Now I have a couple of questions for you, 1) You say Brianna tells lies - what kind of lies? And how do you know she is lying? This is important. 2) What do you know of the other kids and how they are getting along? Is there any contact with her siblings? Are any of them struggling in this way? The problem with automatically thinking, "She needs to be in therapy again," is that with her history, it is natural to assume that she is like this because of her rough start in life. But you could be dealing with chicken-or-egg situation here. A Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid born into a neglectful household is going to have a rough time. The child will present as abused (often IS abused, especially by their standards and especially if not given access to what they need, or not having it recognised). A Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid born into a loving, caring household can still sometimes SEEM to be suffering from neglect or abuse. We got accused initially of being neglectful, with difficult child 3. CHild protective services were called on us and we had to undergo a lot of investigations. Once I got over my fear of being blamed inappropriately, I was grateful because it was opening doors for assessments and testing, which suddenly got slammed again when they dropped the case. My point here is - her mother sounds like she wasn't up to the job, but if Brianna was born Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) (yet to be checked out) it would have greatly increased the liklihood of inappropriate management of the child. Therapy won't fix any underlying problem, it will only help the overlay, and then only if you're indepedently working to help her with whatever-it-is. I can understand your husband and the granmother thinking she's a perfect child - to them, she may present as such. And perhaps when she is given exactly the environment she craves, she is capable of neatly slotting in so her behaviour doesn't stand out as obvious. They accept her and give her instinctively what she wants. You, for some reason, do not - perhaps you are seeing something that concerns you and you're rocking the boat just that little bit to see what happens, and what you then see really concerns you - and they're unwilling to rock the boat even a little, because "if it ain't broke, why fix it?" If MWM & I (and those of the rest of us also thinking it could be Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)) are right, then you need to make some changes in order to help her. You've come a long way with her, but your mindset (and the therapist's) has been focussed on her problems being due to early neglect and whatever. You need to consider a thinknig shift towards, "Maybe there's something she was born with," in order to help her adapt. I do not intend this as criticism. I am speaking from experience - we all want our kids to do well, and so when we have a kid like this we try to handle it by pushing them firmly in the direction they should be going. I made mistakes like this with difficult child 1. He now sees how I handle difficult child 3 and I know he resents it, even though he sees how vlauable it is. He is jealous, he admits it, he wishes I had got my act together a bit sooner, is all. What you need to do - first, watch. Take notes. See the things she likes to do, the things she likes to collect. If you can without triggering a meltdown, ask her why. Again, take notes. She is a product of her nature and her nurture. Her nurture - she had a rough start. her nature - she may have been born with something like Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) (or similar) or her nurture could have triggered other problems now built-in to her makeup. THis is why you need an evaluation - a neuropsychologist assessment as a priority. That's point 2 - a neuropsychologist assessment. If her dad and grandma are resistant to this, point out that it will help pinpoint just how smart she is, in the areas she is doing well. It will also help head off any academic problems which are likely o surface later on (perhaps as a result of her rough start). OK, that's what you tell him. Because they alone are good enough reasons, if you have a child who is clearly brilliant at least in some areas. But what often can happen with a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid - they get to acertain point in their schooling, and the work becomes more complex, more abstract and they hit an academic brick wall and suddenly begin to do really badly. It's too late to panic then. With advance diagnosis and support, this can be minimised and often ways found around the problem. The academic brick wall can happen at a range of ages (depending on exactly how severe the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) is). For difficult child 1, it happened at about age 13. For difficult child 3, it happened last year, at 14. For easy child 2/difficult child 2, it happened in senior high school (after an earlier brick wall before she was diagnosed, when she was 8). The brick wall can be climbed, but you do better with expert help who can tell you where the footholds are. USe whatever resources you canaccess (ie the school) to get some sort of assessment done now. it won't be perfect but when you are back on your feet you will at least have a starting point and further testing should simply piggyback onto what was already done, and therefore be cheaper. Kids shouldn't be tested too often (because ten all that gets tested, is how good the kid is at doing tests). However, previous testing can be reevaluated and sometimess new, more detailed tests can be added to the list. It's a bit like doing some athletic events such as foot race and hurdles, then someone elsecomes along and says, I don't need you to do the foot race or hurdles again, we've already recorded your times for those, but your performance in the hurdles makes us think that some data on your performance in long jump, high jump and maybe even pole vault, would be really useful." Meanwhile, if you choose to use this as your working hypothesis, there are things you can do now, yourselves, without it costing you a cent. Step 1 - read "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. Even if people don't think she's explosive. There are other books also, but I feel for you this would be a good start. Maybe for your husband if he could handle the idea, read "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time" by Mark Haddon. It's fiction, but written from the point of view of a 15 year old boy with Asperger's. Read anything by Temple Grandin or Tony Attwood. Step 2 - back off from pushing her for a while, and see how you go. Again, do this as you observe and record. Try to get others to also record. Do a PMI - that's Plus, Minus, INteresting (these are the categories you make notes on). Take note of who she gets on well with, who they are, how old they are, what they are interested in. I suspect you will find she DOES have friends but they are possibly bright or odd kids much younger than her, or some surprising adults in her environment. Step 3 - find out what makes her feel calm and happy. Do not restrict her access to this. Someone on another thread mentioned that her son likes to wear gloves and have his gloves in his pocket - so for a kid like this, you have spare gloves available. difficult child 3 likes to blow bubbles, so we have lots of little bubble bottles (the kind they hand out at weddings) scattered around. He tops them up with dishwashing liquid and used to take one to school (it was in his IEP). One day at school he left his bubble bottle in the classroom and a teacher refused to let him go fetch it, then put him on detention for the resultant meltdown. That's an example of what NOT to do. difficult child 3 is older now, is no longer so dependent on these things, but he is very dependent on other things. It varies. We watch, we support. Over time, we help him wean off but always he will need something. I'll shut up now. I could go on and on. I return to my most important question - your daughter's lies. Can you give us more detail here? Sorry you need us but glad you found us. Marg [/QUOTE]
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