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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 382411" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Oh, does this sound familiar!</p><p></p><p>Although I will say, difficult child 3 is more in tune with emotions, but only because we have taught him about emotions formally, from very young. We didn't realise at the time that that is what we were doing, but it did work for us.</p><p></p><p>The pin press things - we got one too, or rather one of our kids did. Not sure where it is now. Over time we have acquired a lot of the things that difficult child 3 obsesses about. A lot of paperweights have various spinning wheels, falling oil droplets etc and those got collected a lot over the years.</p><p></p><p>So much of what you describe fits with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). As you said, you have to wait for the result.</p><p></p><p>You have also spotted one of the common causes of ODD-like behaviour - continually asking a kid to do something he simply cannot, which then leads to "I will not" (because I can't) which can then spill over to the next thing you ask the child to do, even if it is something he can do. They reach a point where it is easier to shut down and refuse, than to do the little they can do. But approach them the right way, and they can comply.</p><p></p><p>We had a classic example of this last night at mother in law's. The Commonwealth Games are all over Aussie TV and difficult child 3 arrived to note that his favourite network was only showing sport. "Simpsons has been bumped for the sport," difficult child 3 commented to mother in law.</p><p>mother in law said to him in joking sarcasm, "Oh, how sad. The Simpsons isn't on! What will we do without it?" (mother in law hates Simpsons).</p><p>difficult child 3 got very sniffy about this and said, "I should have known you'd be rude about it," and walked out.</p><p>mother in law looked at us, trying to urge us to make our son apologise for being rude to her. "Don't you teach him to respect his elders any more?"</p><p>husband tried to explain, "We teach him respect by setting the example for him. It's the only way he can learn this."</p><p>mother in law was getting huffy now. "So I'm not even allowed to talk to him?"</p><p>"Of course you can talk to him! But he doesn't understand sarcasm, and it seemed to him that you were disrespecting him. He's never going to cope with everything, we are teaching him with the stuff he CAN do."</p><p></p><p>The trouble is, people in mother in law's generation do not understand kids these days anyway, and especially do not interact appropriately a lot of the time. She has always tried to interact in joking, fun ways but always requiring respect. The trouble is, most easy child kids can quickly learn the "Do as I say, not as I do" but Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids just can't do it. If you disrespect a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid, that kid will assume that you are showing them how to behave, and they will disrespect you. Not in a tit for tat kind of way, but purely in terms of "So this is how she wants me to behave."</p><p>So when you scold a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) child while you stand there with hands on your hips saying things like, "What were you thinking!" you had better be prepared to get the same things dished back to you. And for some people like my mother in law, having a child stand there with hands on hips scolding you and saying, "What were you thinking?" doers not go down well.</p><p></p><p>Last night we gave up trying to explain to mother in law. She didn't understand how her joking reference to Simpsons could have been taken so badly. And I know if difficult child 3 had been able to say to mother in law, "Well, what a pity your favourite detective show isn't on! What on earth will you do without it? Go into withdrawal?" she would have been very angry with him.</p><p>He actually handled her very politely, but the trouble was, she was joking and he didn't take it as a joke. He indicated he was hurt but kept his tone of voice polite and left the room. mother in law called to him to try to engage him, to try to win him back, and it only aggravated matters. That was when he began to get angry with her (because to him, it seemed she was trying to escalate the insult). And when SHE got offended, when to his mind she had started it, he really felt out of sorts because he had been set up to fail in that interaction. Or so it seemed to him.</p><p></p><p>mother in law just doesn't get how to talk to him. And this is odd, because she used to. But now she is getting older and more frail, she has stopped trying because frankly, it is too much effort for her in so many ways.</p><p></p><p>This all seems trivial, and very subtle. But these are the sort of interactions that happen all day every day, and how you handle them, and how you allow difficult child to handle them, will determine how successfully (or not) you and difficult child negotiate the day.</p><p></p><p>The first big rule - sarcasm is OUT. Do not use it. It is confusing, it sends mixed messages, it is likely to provoke a rage. Over time we have worked hard to teach sarcasm to difficult child but he still isn't good with it. He understands irony but it needs to be pointed out. He does not value irony as a source of humour. And people who regularly use sarcasm and irony, or even merely saying mean things and who then try to backpedal with "But I was only joking," need to learn that some jokes are just not funny.</p><p></p><p>What you are seeing with your son now, is a snapshot of where he is now. You have just seen that emotions in others are things he doesn't understand. He needs help to understand emotions in himself. This I would place as a high priority. </p><p>There is a poster you can get which has simplified faces, each depicting a different facial expression and each with a label. This is worth getting a copy of, and putting up behind the toilet door (which is a major learning centre, often neglected).</p><p>There are also computer programs you can access, stuff online, which would be worth finding and getting him to do - a sort of emotion tutorial. There is also a very useful website which has a test for prosopagnosia (aka face blindness). Run it on him when you get home. Run it on yourself. Because if he has problems recognising emotions in others, he might have trouble with face blindness too, and the sooner yo know this, the sooner you can begin to teach him coping strategies.</p><p>easy child 2/difficult child 2 copes with this by focussing on something unusual about a person's appearance. This includes what they are wearing. She will say the person's name and then quietly say to herself, "Jane - green dress with diamante trim" and for the rest of the day, she will remember the name and the person.</p><p></p><p>We have come a long way with our younger three kids. Sometime it feels like we still have a long way to go, but when we look back we know we've done a lot.</p><p></p><p>Once you know what you are dealing with, you know what you have to focus on first. Don't try to fix everything all at once, and learn to value the innate gifts of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). There are some and they are worth valuing. Help difficult child value tis about himself too, because having good self-esteem helps reduce anxiety, which often goes hand in hand with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). Even if it's just the constant, "Am I doing this right?"</p><p></p><p>When your child can see that your main focus is to help him learn and help him cope, the ODD reduces dramatically.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 382411, member: 1991"] Oh, does this sound familiar! Although I will say, difficult child 3 is more in tune with emotions, but only because we have taught him about emotions formally, from very young. We didn't realise at the time that that is what we were doing, but it did work for us. The pin press things - we got one too, or rather one of our kids did. Not sure where it is now. Over time we have acquired a lot of the things that difficult child 3 obsesses about. A lot of paperweights have various spinning wheels, falling oil droplets etc and those got collected a lot over the years. So much of what you describe fits with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). As you said, you have to wait for the result. You have also spotted one of the common causes of ODD-like behaviour - continually asking a kid to do something he simply cannot, which then leads to "I will not" (because I can't) which can then spill over to the next thing you ask the child to do, even if it is something he can do. They reach a point where it is easier to shut down and refuse, than to do the little they can do. But approach them the right way, and they can comply. We had a classic example of this last night at mother in law's. The Commonwealth Games are all over Aussie TV and difficult child 3 arrived to note that his favourite network was only showing sport. "Simpsons has been bumped for the sport," difficult child 3 commented to mother in law. mother in law said to him in joking sarcasm, "Oh, how sad. The Simpsons isn't on! What will we do without it?" (mother in law hates Simpsons). difficult child 3 got very sniffy about this and said, "I should have known you'd be rude about it," and walked out. mother in law looked at us, trying to urge us to make our son apologise for being rude to her. "Don't you teach him to respect his elders any more?" husband tried to explain, "We teach him respect by setting the example for him. It's the only way he can learn this." mother in law was getting huffy now. "So I'm not even allowed to talk to him?" "Of course you can talk to him! But he doesn't understand sarcasm, and it seemed to him that you were disrespecting him. He's never going to cope with everything, we are teaching him with the stuff he CAN do." The trouble is, people in mother in law's generation do not understand kids these days anyway, and especially do not interact appropriately a lot of the time. She has always tried to interact in joking, fun ways but always requiring respect. The trouble is, most easy child kids can quickly learn the "Do as I say, not as I do" but Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids just can't do it. If you disrespect a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid, that kid will assume that you are showing them how to behave, and they will disrespect you. Not in a tit for tat kind of way, but purely in terms of "So this is how she wants me to behave." So when you scold a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) child while you stand there with hands on your hips saying things like, "What were you thinking!" you had better be prepared to get the same things dished back to you. And for some people like my mother in law, having a child stand there with hands on hips scolding you and saying, "What were you thinking?" doers not go down well. Last night we gave up trying to explain to mother in law. She didn't understand how her joking reference to Simpsons could have been taken so badly. And I know if difficult child 3 had been able to say to mother in law, "Well, what a pity your favourite detective show isn't on! What on earth will you do without it? Go into withdrawal?" she would have been very angry with him. He actually handled her very politely, but the trouble was, she was joking and he didn't take it as a joke. He indicated he was hurt but kept his tone of voice polite and left the room. mother in law called to him to try to engage him, to try to win him back, and it only aggravated matters. That was when he began to get angry with her (because to him, it seemed she was trying to escalate the insult). And when SHE got offended, when to his mind she had started it, he really felt out of sorts because he had been set up to fail in that interaction. Or so it seemed to him. mother in law just doesn't get how to talk to him. And this is odd, because she used to. But now she is getting older and more frail, she has stopped trying because frankly, it is too much effort for her in so many ways. This all seems trivial, and very subtle. But these are the sort of interactions that happen all day every day, and how you handle them, and how you allow difficult child to handle them, will determine how successfully (or not) you and difficult child negotiate the day. The first big rule - sarcasm is OUT. Do not use it. It is confusing, it sends mixed messages, it is likely to provoke a rage. Over time we have worked hard to teach sarcasm to difficult child but he still isn't good with it. He understands irony but it needs to be pointed out. He does not value irony as a source of humour. And people who regularly use sarcasm and irony, or even merely saying mean things and who then try to backpedal with "But I was only joking," need to learn that some jokes are just not funny. What you are seeing with your son now, is a snapshot of where he is now. You have just seen that emotions in others are things he doesn't understand. He needs help to understand emotions in himself. This I would place as a high priority. There is a poster you can get which has simplified faces, each depicting a different facial expression and each with a label. This is worth getting a copy of, and putting up behind the toilet door (which is a major learning centre, often neglected). There are also computer programs you can access, stuff online, which would be worth finding and getting him to do - a sort of emotion tutorial. There is also a very useful website which has a test for prosopagnosia (aka face blindness). Run it on him when you get home. Run it on yourself. Because if he has problems recognising emotions in others, he might have trouble with face blindness too, and the sooner yo know this, the sooner you can begin to teach him coping strategies. easy child 2/difficult child 2 copes with this by focussing on something unusual about a person's appearance. This includes what they are wearing. She will say the person's name and then quietly say to herself, "Jane - green dress with diamante trim" and for the rest of the day, she will remember the name and the person. We have come a long way with our younger three kids. Sometime it feels like we still have a long way to go, but when we look back we know we've done a lot. Once you know what you are dealing with, you know what you have to focus on first. Don't try to fix everything all at once, and learn to value the innate gifts of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). There are some and they are worth valuing. Help difficult child value tis about himself too, because having good self-esteem helps reduce anxiety, which often goes hand in hand with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). Even if it's just the constant, "Am I doing this right?" When your child can see that your main focus is to help him learn and help him cope, the ODD reduces dramatically. Marg [/QUOTE]
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