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<blockquote data-quote="slsh" data-source="post: 392345" data-attributes="member: 8"><p>Hi Overwhelmed, and welcome!</p><p></p><p>I've never heard of the "prison guard" approach, at least not in the home setting (we went thru an extended period of no contact with- our son when he was probably 10, but that was in an Residential Treatment Center (RTC) and ... well, it's a long story but basically a very different setting and situation). I'm not real sure that I agree with- this idea in the home setting, for a couple of reasons. I'm assuming you are trying to build a relationship with- your stepdaughter, and it seems counterproductive to withdraw physical and emotional contact. I would also guess, just based on my personal experience, that she would up the ante if you do withdraw all contact (maybe, anyway). With my kiddo at that age, he was all about controlling us - by raging, he guaranteed he would have our total attention and that he would be in control of the situation. Obviously, if you've got a kid who has violent/destructive rages, you cannot simply ignore it. I absolutely *do* buy into emotional neutrality. My anger/frustration/sadness/any emotion at all was fuel for my son's rages. I used to be a screamer, and things would escalate pretty darn quickly around here. When I learned to keep control of my own emotions and remain neutral, no matter what, my son didn't escalate quite so much. The added benefit was that I got to stay in control of the situation (with my son, it was all about power and control and attention), so he didn't get quite the payoff he was looking for. When I turned into ranting lunatic frustrated mom, he had the control.</p><p></p><p>I have used "extinction" before, but usually for relatively short periods of time and only for selected behaviors (for example, ignoring my son's rather salty name-calling when directed at me). </p><p></p><p>My biggest doubt is that when you're dealing with a child who shows no remorse and who engages very intently on disruptive/destructive behavior, withdrawing contact until it "improves" (on its own??) seems a bit goofy. My kid was the energizer bunny when he was raging - I doubt our home would still be standing if I had just withdrawn. Had I withdrawn my attention... well, thank you would have just kept on going until I had to reengage.</p><p></p><p>My son never responded well to reward/consequence type behavior plans - in fact, positive reinforcement would provoke negative behaviors, while negative reinforcers (time outs, spanking when he was young and I was still clueless, loss of a toy or activity) actually reinforced the negative behaviors. I can't tell you how many therapists, psychiatrists, teachers, SWs, and other professionals we dealt with who didn't get this. They simply refused to believe it - until they saw it in action. That said, I think it's probably a good idea to look at other resources - 6 months with- a therapist is plenty of time, in my humble opinion, for a therapist to get a bit more clued in to the particular behaviors and needs of a child and the family. </p><p></p><p>Some practical stuff that we implemented in our home during the dark days of major rages: All sharp objects (knives, forks, tools) were stored in locked tool boxes (keyed locks, with key on a chain around my neck 24/7). All medications/cleaners/chemicals/toxic stuff in keyed tool box. Since my difficult child liked to throw things, nothing came into my home that wasn't evaluated first for it's hurt potential/breakability. Ceramic lamps got broken fairly early on. After that, it was cheapo fake brass lamps - yes, they were fairly heavy, but I was still fast enough to catch them and/or dodge them. Plastic plates and cups. No match box cars - a lot of nerf kind of toys for him. Obviously, no toy guns/knives/swords. Nothing breakable in his room.</p><p></p><p>With another kiddo in the home, I think a very helpful thing to do would be to have a safety plan for when she does rage. In my home, when thank you would start raging, I'd wheel oldest into the kitchen (raging was usually in our family room or thank you's bedroom), and then my youngest son would get my daughter and go into my bedroom and lock the door. Toys/TV were kept in my room for these times. I kept a cell phone on me so I could call 911 if necessary. When the kids were all older, we got a keyed lock for the door at the top of our stairs (where the 2 youngest kids' rooms are) - when I would tell them to, they'd head upstairs, lock the door, and play video games up there. Anything to keep them out of the line of fire. When the other kids were safe, I'd focus on thank you. We used therapeutic restraints when he was younger (we were trained by his therapist on how to do this safely, and the fact we were trained was well documented in thank you's chart - no one should restrain a child without proper training). By age 9, our therapist told us to the restraints because of his size and the danger of someone getting hurt. If he was violent, I'd call 911 for transport to hospital. If he was just spewing his verbal garbage, I would try to de-fuse the situation. </p><p></p><p>As far as discipline, I pretty much gave up on traditional kind of consequences. What's the point in ground a kid who realistically could bolt out the front door and disappear for hours? It's impossible to take away a valued toy when he's already destroyed them all. I relied more on logical consequences, or tried to anyway. He broke his bedroom door - he had to pick up the pieces. He threw the garbage can all over the kitchen - he cleaned it up. I have to admit I wasn't terribly successful in this because he was never terribly compliant (or remorseful), but... I really did try to keep it real in terms of logical consequences. I also early on figured out that school was just going to have to deal with- school issues - I had enough problems at home, LOL. If he didn't turn in homework, or was disruptive or whatever at school, I expected school to deal with it. He didn't get consequences at home for behaviors at school. </p><p></p><p>The one book that I would highly recommend is "The Explosive Child". I'm not big on self-help books, but this one was ... well, it was just so many things to me. First off, I *swear* he was writing about my son. I giggled through the book the first time around, just out of sheer relief that someone really got a child like mine. It's was also very helpful in getting me to prioritize what behaviors were in need of immediate attention, and which ones could be dealt with- later. For me, the physical violence was always the priority. Name-calling, lying, etc., were not so urgent - but it's different for every family. It also really helped me to get a glimpse into my son's head - how he saw himself (at the ripe old age of 6) as my equal, how he was optimistic (he just knew he was going to "win" and how long it took to win just didn't matter). Really excellent excellent book.</p><p></p><p>Is there a family history of substance abuse, depression/mood disorders, suicide? Did bio mom drink/use during the pregnancy? How did your daughter hit developmental milestones - slow, accelerated, on target? It's *great* that she's doing well in school - don't take that personally. Sometimes kids are able to hold it together in more unfamiliar settings, while unleashing in more comfortable ones. The fact that she can and is holding it together in school is, I think, a very positive sign. </p><p></p><p>As far as type of evaluation - a lot depends on family history and her development, in my humble opinion. If she was delayed, or precocious, in her development, I'd probably lean more towards a neuropsychologist or neurodevelopmental evaluation. If there's a family history of mental illness (diagnosed or not), I'd lean more towards a psychiatric evaluation. I think finding a good therapist is essential, more for you and your husband - getting input on managing behaviors from a professional who gets your child is priceless. I do believe there's benefit in therapy for even young kids, but in my son's case, we've only seen him sporadically use the tools he's learned (and he started therapy 15 years ago, LOL). Don't expect to see dramatic changes overnight - but the advice you and husband get from a good therapist who is working with your daughter should at least be helping you guys to manage the behaviors. In our experience, finding a good therapist was challenging. Some really know their stuff and some... not so much. If you're not happy with- a therapist (or psychiatrist or whomever), I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time trying to make it work. They work for you - they need to make an effort to meet your needs and address your concerns.</p><p></p><p>Anyway... sorry this got so long. I'm glad you found us!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="slsh, post: 392345, member: 8"] Hi Overwhelmed, and welcome! I've never heard of the "prison guard" approach, at least not in the home setting (we went thru an extended period of no contact with- our son when he was probably 10, but that was in an Residential Treatment Center (RTC) and ... well, it's a long story but basically a very different setting and situation). I'm not real sure that I agree with- this idea in the home setting, for a couple of reasons. I'm assuming you are trying to build a relationship with- your stepdaughter, and it seems counterproductive to withdraw physical and emotional contact. I would also guess, just based on my personal experience, that she would up the ante if you do withdraw all contact (maybe, anyway). With my kiddo at that age, he was all about controlling us - by raging, he guaranteed he would have our total attention and that he would be in control of the situation. Obviously, if you've got a kid who has violent/destructive rages, you cannot simply ignore it. I absolutely *do* buy into emotional neutrality. My anger/frustration/sadness/any emotion at all was fuel for my son's rages. I used to be a screamer, and things would escalate pretty darn quickly around here. When I learned to keep control of my own emotions and remain neutral, no matter what, my son didn't escalate quite so much. The added benefit was that I got to stay in control of the situation (with my son, it was all about power and control and attention), so he didn't get quite the payoff he was looking for. When I turned into ranting lunatic frustrated mom, he had the control. I have used "extinction" before, but usually for relatively short periods of time and only for selected behaviors (for example, ignoring my son's rather salty name-calling when directed at me). My biggest doubt is that when you're dealing with a child who shows no remorse and who engages very intently on disruptive/destructive behavior, withdrawing contact until it "improves" (on its own??) seems a bit goofy. My kid was the energizer bunny when he was raging - I doubt our home would still be standing if I had just withdrawn. Had I withdrawn my attention... well, thank you would have just kept on going until I had to reengage. My son never responded well to reward/consequence type behavior plans - in fact, positive reinforcement would provoke negative behaviors, while negative reinforcers (time outs, spanking when he was young and I was still clueless, loss of a toy or activity) actually reinforced the negative behaviors. I can't tell you how many therapists, psychiatrists, teachers, SWs, and other professionals we dealt with who didn't get this. They simply refused to believe it - until they saw it in action. That said, I think it's probably a good idea to look at other resources - 6 months with- a therapist is plenty of time, in my humble opinion, for a therapist to get a bit more clued in to the particular behaviors and needs of a child and the family. Some practical stuff that we implemented in our home during the dark days of major rages: All sharp objects (knives, forks, tools) were stored in locked tool boxes (keyed locks, with key on a chain around my neck 24/7). All medications/cleaners/chemicals/toxic stuff in keyed tool box. Since my difficult child liked to throw things, nothing came into my home that wasn't evaluated first for it's hurt potential/breakability. Ceramic lamps got broken fairly early on. After that, it was cheapo fake brass lamps - yes, they were fairly heavy, but I was still fast enough to catch them and/or dodge them. Plastic plates and cups. No match box cars - a lot of nerf kind of toys for him. Obviously, no toy guns/knives/swords. Nothing breakable in his room. With another kiddo in the home, I think a very helpful thing to do would be to have a safety plan for when she does rage. In my home, when thank you would start raging, I'd wheel oldest into the kitchen (raging was usually in our family room or thank you's bedroom), and then my youngest son would get my daughter and go into my bedroom and lock the door. Toys/TV were kept in my room for these times. I kept a cell phone on me so I could call 911 if necessary. When the kids were all older, we got a keyed lock for the door at the top of our stairs (where the 2 youngest kids' rooms are) - when I would tell them to, they'd head upstairs, lock the door, and play video games up there. Anything to keep them out of the line of fire. When the other kids were safe, I'd focus on thank you. We used therapeutic restraints when he was younger (we were trained by his therapist on how to do this safely, and the fact we were trained was well documented in thank you's chart - no one should restrain a child without proper training). By age 9, our therapist told us to the restraints because of his size and the danger of someone getting hurt. If he was violent, I'd call 911 for transport to hospital. If he was just spewing his verbal garbage, I would try to de-fuse the situation. As far as discipline, I pretty much gave up on traditional kind of consequences. What's the point in ground a kid who realistically could bolt out the front door and disappear for hours? It's impossible to take away a valued toy when he's already destroyed them all. I relied more on logical consequences, or tried to anyway. He broke his bedroom door - he had to pick up the pieces. He threw the garbage can all over the kitchen - he cleaned it up. I have to admit I wasn't terribly successful in this because he was never terribly compliant (or remorseful), but... I really did try to keep it real in terms of logical consequences. I also early on figured out that school was just going to have to deal with- school issues - I had enough problems at home, LOL. If he didn't turn in homework, or was disruptive or whatever at school, I expected school to deal with it. He didn't get consequences at home for behaviors at school. The one book that I would highly recommend is "The Explosive Child". I'm not big on self-help books, but this one was ... well, it was just so many things to me. First off, I *swear* he was writing about my son. I giggled through the book the first time around, just out of sheer relief that someone really got a child like mine. It's was also very helpful in getting me to prioritize what behaviors were in need of immediate attention, and which ones could be dealt with- later. For me, the physical violence was always the priority. Name-calling, lying, etc., were not so urgent - but it's different for every family. It also really helped me to get a glimpse into my son's head - how he saw himself (at the ripe old age of 6) as my equal, how he was optimistic (he just knew he was going to "win" and how long it took to win just didn't matter). Really excellent excellent book. Is there a family history of substance abuse, depression/mood disorders, suicide? Did bio mom drink/use during the pregnancy? How did your daughter hit developmental milestones - slow, accelerated, on target? It's *great* that she's doing well in school - don't take that personally. Sometimes kids are able to hold it together in more unfamiliar settings, while unleashing in more comfortable ones. The fact that she can and is holding it together in school is, I think, a very positive sign. As far as type of evaluation - a lot depends on family history and her development, in my humble opinion. If she was delayed, or precocious, in her development, I'd probably lean more towards a neuropsychologist or neurodevelopmental evaluation. If there's a family history of mental illness (diagnosed or not), I'd lean more towards a psychiatric evaluation. I think finding a good therapist is essential, more for you and your husband - getting input on managing behaviors from a professional who gets your child is priceless. I do believe there's benefit in therapy for even young kids, but in my son's case, we've only seen him sporadically use the tools he's learned (and he started therapy 15 years ago, LOL). Don't expect to see dramatic changes overnight - but the advice you and husband get from a good therapist who is working with your daughter should at least be helping you guys to manage the behaviors. In our experience, finding a good therapist was challenging. Some really know their stuff and some... not so much. If you're not happy with- a therapist (or psychiatrist or whomever), I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time trying to make it work. They work for you - they need to make an effort to meet your needs and address your concerns. Anyway... sorry this got so long. I'm glad you found us! [/QUOTE]
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