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Power struggles and talking back -- need suggestions?
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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 171520" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>It's hard for us to know exactly what we would do, without personally being there.</p><p></p><p>I do know that chasing doesn't come into it with me - because I can't chase the child. I have no choice but to stand there, and wait. </p><p></p><p>difficult child 3 used to run away from a number of his carers when he was tiny. They would chase - and he would run, thinking it was a game. He also didn't respond to his name being called at the time, because his language delay was so poor tat he didn't recognise it ashis name - or any name. </p><p></p><p>But he never ran away from me. He might run a few steps, then stop and look. I would still be standing where I had been to begin with. He would eventually come back - because what else was there to do?</p><p></p><p>I would engage him and get him to unlock the car door, though, once he had the keys.</p><p></p><p>And letting a young child have the keys - we all do it, or have done it. I remember my mother doing it, my sisters doing it with their kids - baby's getting fretful, so jingle the keys and let the baby play with them.</p><p></p><p>Adrianne, I do take your point about safety - it IS something to watch out for.</p><p></p><p>One important thing to consider - if the driver doesn't have the keys, then nobody is going anywhere. And just standing around gets boring, fast. </p><p></p><p>I see this as like trying to train a dog to not go running away with the ball, and to instead bring the ball back and put it in the owner's hand. It can be done, with the most difficult dog. It's a matter of consistency, discipline and breaking bad habits.</p><p></p><p>A dog that grabs the ball and runs away with it, is a dog that has been badly taught and also a dog that doesn't get to play 'fetch' any further. If you have kids, what happens at this point (far too often) is that the kids chase after the dog, shouting and yelling. Since kids who are playing run around shouting and yelling, the dog interprets this as "game". And the best way to keep the game going, is to keep the ball.</p><p></p><p>To put an immediate stop to bad behaviour like this, you must first stop ANYONE chasing the dog. You shouldn't even slyly grab the ball when the dog isn't looking, because to the dog, this is still part of the game - being able to sneak the ball back is still continuing the grab and chase game.</p><p></p><p>By refusing to chase, and insisting on the dog bringing the ball back to you, then rewarding the dog for doing so (and you need a different reward, not merely throwing the ball again) is the way to begin to turn this around. But all it takes is one episode of kids laughing and chasing the dog, to undo all the good work you've put in.</p><p></p><p>That said - some dogs are murder to try to re-train. Some never get it right. I grew up with a kleptomaniac canine who couldn't be trained, and who would steal whatever was in reach, and take it off somewhere to chew. Of course we chased - because when a dog has a brand new pair of shoes and is chewing them, you want to rescue the property. Trying to prevent the dog from getting hold of the wrong stuff, was the only way we could handle it. Not easy, when you live four people in a small caravan and all your worldly possessions are in the (accessible to dog) annexe outside.</p><p></p><p>Bringing this back to your daughter - trying to retrain her isn't going to be easy. </p><p></p><p>Step 1 - try to avoid letting her have things like the keys. Not easy, but you have to really stand firm. If she throws a tantrum in public - let her. The time is long past, when you can care what other people think. What YOU want from your daughter is far more important.</p><p></p><p>Step 2 - don't chase her. But do make sure she has a label on her (I used sticky schoolbook labels - on difficult child 3's BACK so he wouldn't play with it and pull it off). Then stand, and wait. Also, carry a spare key in your purse, or round your neck, or somewhere she can't get at. </p><p></p><p>Step 3 - don't punish her when she comes back. Her punishment is that the time of departure had to be delayed, because she had the keys and was not where the keys were needed. So maybe with time wasted, there is no time to stop for ice cream as you had planned? Conversely, you can reward promptness with "Good! We now have time to stop for an ice cream."</p><p></p><p>Step 4 - where possible, engage her. Find ways to involve her and make her feel useful and productive. For example when shopping, send her to find the baked beans. When she's older and more mathematically adept, ask her to find the most economical baked beans. If she has the keys, get her to open the car. And if you're concerned she will later try to start the car, get into the habit of engaging the immobiliser at all times.</p><p></p><p>You say difficult child wants the digital camera - would it be of any benefit to teach her how to use it? Or is she a total klutz who doesn't have a clue? Is there ANY way you can engage her here? If she really is a problem, then she will have to be kept away from any time the camera is in use. But maybe if she is amenable to being taught, then camera lessons could be a reward that you could use, if she is able to behave herself well enough. </p><p></p><p>Any reward, though, needs to be immediate. Same with any punishment (although from your description, you'd be constantly punishing her and that sends her a bad message).</p><p></p><p>She really does sound a handful. Maybe by limiting the situations to begin with (to reduce the likelihood and frequency of problems) you can make a beginning.</p><p></p><p>Small bites. Small doses. Hopefully, small successes with lots of praise for getting it right.</p><p></p><p>Supernanny may not be a bad idea, in some respects - sometimes a fresh opinion looking from the outside can see little things that too-close familiarity can miss. Not that all the typical Supernanny techniques will work for her - they won't, for all kids. I've noticed tat even Supernanny changes things around to suit the situation.</p><p></p><p>But talking to her, trying to reason with her, when she's being a little horror - sounds like it's just not working. She's not respecting you and that's not good. You need to get that respect back, by showing her that even if she runs off with the car keys, you are in control. because only you can drive that car, and you're quite calm about staying put until the keys are brought back - to you.</p><p></p><p>Natural consequences is not weakness. But natural consequences also take you out of the picture, as the punisher. It turns it around totally, so difficult child is the one punishing herself, because she brought it all on herself. You might have been ready to give her a treat fore being good - but what a pity, there's no time now, because you had to wait so long for the car keys...</p><p></p><p>You get my drift?</p><p></p><p>You can use this with "Explosive Child" but it really does take a very strong will to stand there and not chase her, when you see her run. She's after an attention pay-off, and you must not give it to her.</p><p></p><p>I wish I could help you more, but you are the one with her, I am not. All I can tell you, is that difficult child 3 did things like this, and he doesn't any more. But difficult child 3 could be very different to your difficult child. "Explosive Child" made a big difference to us and to the tantrum level. I also was prepared to put up with public tantrums if necessary, to get the behaviour I wanted. Keeping cheerful in public, even in the face of public criticism, isn't easy. If anyone steps forward and says what we all dread - "You should be ashamed of yourself, raising a child with such terrible manners!" simply smile cheerfully and say, "The job's open, if you want it. The hours, the pay and the conditions are pretty awful, though."</p><p>However - it's what we dread, but how often does this really happen? Most people shaking their heads are quietly saying to themselves, "There but for the grace of God, go I."</p><p>Or "Been there. Done that. Tubes tied."</p><p></p><p>Hang in there. Keep asking us. We'll try. Can't do any better than that. Neither can you.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 171520, member: 1991"] It's hard for us to know exactly what we would do, without personally being there. I do know that chasing doesn't come into it with me - because I can't chase the child. I have no choice but to stand there, and wait. difficult child 3 used to run away from a number of his carers when he was tiny. They would chase - and he would run, thinking it was a game. He also didn't respond to his name being called at the time, because his language delay was so poor tat he didn't recognise it ashis name - or any name. But he never ran away from me. He might run a few steps, then stop and look. I would still be standing where I had been to begin with. He would eventually come back - because what else was there to do? I would engage him and get him to unlock the car door, though, once he had the keys. And letting a young child have the keys - we all do it, or have done it. I remember my mother doing it, my sisters doing it with their kids - baby's getting fretful, so jingle the keys and let the baby play with them. Adrianne, I do take your point about safety - it IS something to watch out for. One important thing to consider - if the driver doesn't have the keys, then nobody is going anywhere. And just standing around gets boring, fast. I see this as like trying to train a dog to not go running away with the ball, and to instead bring the ball back and put it in the owner's hand. It can be done, with the most difficult dog. It's a matter of consistency, discipline and breaking bad habits. A dog that grabs the ball and runs away with it, is a dog that has been badly taught and also a dog that doesn't get to play 'fetch' any further. If you have kids, what happens at this point (far too often) is that the kids chase after the dog, shouting and yelling. Since kids who are playing run around shouting and yelling, the dog interprets this as "game". And the best way to keep the game going, is to keep the ball. To put an immediate stop to bad behaviour like this, you must first stop ANYONE chasing the dog. You shouldn't even slyly grab the ball when the dog isn't looking, because to the dog, this is still part of the game - being able to sneak the ball back is still continuing the grab and chase game. By refusing to chase, and insisting on the dog bringing the ball back to you, then rewarding the dog for doing so (and you need a different reward, not merely throwing the ball again) is the way to begin to turn this around. But all it takes is one episode of kids laughing and chasing the dog, to undo all the good work you've put in. That said - some dogs are murder to try to re-train. Some never get it right. I grew up with a kleptomaniac canine who couldn't be trained, and who would steal whatever was in reach, and take it off somewhere to chew. Of course we chased - because when a dog has a brand new pair of shoes and is chewing them, you want to rescue the property. Trying to prevent the dog from getting hold of the wrong stuff, was the only way we could handle it. Not easy, when you live four people in a small caravan and all your worldly possessions are in the (accessible to dog) annexe outside. Bringing this back to your daughter - trying to retrain her isn't going to be easy. Step 1 - try to avoid letting her have things like the keys. Not easy, but you have to really stand firm. If she throws a tantrum in public - let her. The time is long past, when you can care what other people think. What YOU want from your daughter is far more important. Step 2 - don't chase her. But do make sure she has a label on her (I used sticky schoolbook labels - on difficult child 3's BACK so he wouldn't play with it and pull it off). Then stand, and wait. Also, carry a spare key in your purse, or round your neck, or somewhere she can't get at. Step 3 - don't punish her when she comes back. Her punishment is that the time of departure had to be delayed, because she had the keys and was not where the keys were needed. So maybe with time wasted, there is no time to stop for ice cream as you had planned? Conversely, you can reward promptness with "Good! We now have time to stop for an ice cream." Step 4 - where possible, engage her. Find ways to involve her and make her feel useful and productive. For example when shopping, send her to find the baked beans. When she's older and more mathematically adept, ask her to find the most economical baked beans. If she has the keys, get her to open the car. And if you're concerned she will later try to start the car, get into the habit of engaging the immobiliser at all times. You say difficult child wants the digital camera - would it be of any benefit to teach her how to use it? Or is she a total klutz who doesn't have a clue? Is there ANY way you can engage her here? If she really is a problem, then she will have to be kept away from any time the camera is in use. But maybe if she is amenable to being taught, then camera lessons could be a reward that you could use, if she is able to behave herself well enough. Any reward, though, needs to be immediate. Same with any punishment (although from your description, you'd be constantly punishing her and that sends her a bad message). She really does sound a handful. Maybe by limiting the situations to begin with (to reduce the likelihood and frequency of problems) you can make a beginning. Small bites. Small doses. Hopefully, small successes with lots of praise for getting it right. Supernanny may not be a bad idea, in some respects - sometimes a fresh opinion looking from the outside can see little things that too-close familiarity can miss. Not that all the typical Supernanny techniques will work for her - they won't, for all kids. I've noticed tat even Supernanny changes things around to suit the situation. But talking to her, trying to reason with her, when she's being a little horror - sounds like it's just not working. She's not respecting you and that's not good. You need to get that respect back, by showing her that even if she runs off with the car keys, you are in control. because only you can drive that car, and you're quite calm about staying put until the keys are brought back - to you. Natural consequences is not weakness. But natural consequences also take you out of the picture, as the punisher. It turns it around totally, so difficult child is the one punishing herself, because she brought it all on herself. You might have been ready to give her a treat fore being good - but what a pity, there's no time now, because you had to wait so long for the car keys... You get my drift? You can use this with "Explosive Child" but it really does take a very strong will to stand there and not chase her, when you see her run. She's after an attention pay-off, and you must not give it to her. I wish I could help you more, but you are the one with her, I am not. All I can tell you, is that difficult child 3 did things like this, and he doesn't any more. But difficult child 3 could be very different to your difficult child. "Explosive Child" made a big difference to us and to the tantrum level. I also was prepared to put up with public tantrums if necessary, to get the behaviour I wanted. Keeping cheerful in public, even in the face of public criticism, isn't easy. If anyone steps forward and says what we all dread - "You should be ashamed of yourself, raising a child with such terrible manners!" simply smile cheerfully and say, "The job's open, if you want it. The hours, the pay and the conditions are pretty awful, though." However - it's what we dread, but how often does this really happen? Most people shaking their heads are quietly saying to themselves, "There but for the grace of God, go I." Or "Been there. Done that. Tubes tied." Hang in there. Keep asking us. We'll try. Can't do any better than that. Neither can you. Marg [/QUOTE]
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