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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 335338" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>MWM, what you're talking about here is conversational ability (ie social skills) rather than language. </p><p></p><p>The "I only want to talk about MY pet topic" is not necessarily connected to language problems, it's a social issue primarily. But I agree - VERY Aspie!</p><p>Everything MWM has said here (other than my nitpicking over language vs social issues) is the best advice. Also the good news - the smarter the kid is, the better they eventually can adapt and mimic normality. Some people call it "losing the diagnosis" but I really hate that because autism in its various forms, IS for life, but when someone has adapted to the point where they seem perfectly normal, you should never dismiss this. Underneath it all there is still the autistic person concentrating the whole time, to maintain that social normality. They will always be a bit quirky, too, as quirky as they feel they can get away with. They need it to a certain extent, to relive their stress. But they find their niche. </p><p>Also as MWM indicated, they will increasingly seek out like-minded people as friends.</p><p>difficult child 1's best friend at school was a classic Aspie, of the withdrawn kind. He was always a big bloke, and his large size plus lack of expression in face and voice had some of the teachers really scared of him. Plus he did crazy things which included demonstrating his lack of pain response. One day he poured lighter fluid over his hand and set fire to it. Or a teacher would walk past and say to him, "Pick up that piece of paper," and instead of rushing to comply, he would stand there, look blankly at the teacher and say, "Say please!"</p><p>Based on an unsubstantiated and untrue rumour, the acting principal told him he was not welcome to return for his final year. He wouldn't tell his mother (or me) why. difficult child 1 finally told me some years later, and it was a grave injustice. The school did the wrong thing, all round. If the school's suspicions had been right (that he had brought a gun to school), they should have called the police. But the suspicion was based on Chinese Whispers rumour - he had brought his Junior Shooters Licence to school, he had a shotgun on his uncle's property which he sometimes used to help keep the rabbit plague population under control, and in his wallet he kept the licence for that gun. A teacher heard the phrase, "X has brought a gun to school," and told the acting principal.</p><p></p><p>X has remained a very close friend of difficult child 1's. He was Best Man at his wedding, and I think difficult child 1 will be Best Man at his wedding (coming up in the next year). X's mother was at difficult child 1's wedding also. </p><p>Other friends of my boys - a lot of Asperger's in various forms. difficult child 3's best friend since before Kindergarten, is another boy with autism. Thanks to contacts we have made through difficult child 3's drama class, the kids all worked together on a feature film ("The Black Balloon" with Toni Collette, Luke Ford and Gemma Ward) and more friendships were forged.</p><p></p><p>There are some wonderful qualities in kids on the spectrum. Intense loyalty is one. Despite past views that kids on the spectrum were unemotional, we now know they feel emotions intensely. We just don't always recognise it, through the apparent lack of interest. They show their emotions in different ways. Just because someone with autism isn't smiling, doesn't mean they're not enjoying something. When they DO smile, it lights your world.</p><p>They are also generally very law-abiding, but only if the rules around them make sense and can be seen to be implemented. If the rules are being constantly broken, it upsets and confuses them and they will not value rules which are being broken.</p><p>They generally learn not to attempt to tell lies, but this takes more time. They are generally bad at telling a complex lie, plus it often can feel very uncomfortable for them to tell a lie. Over time, the lies ease off as they learn for themselves that truth feels better and frankly is easier. The more you catch them out in lying, the sooner they will morph into truthful beings. But can you handle the truth? It can be painfully sharp sometimes. </p><p>For example, difficult child 3 said to me, just before I embarked on my doctor-ordered diet, "It's OK, Mum. I love you even though you are fat."</p><p>That was his attempt to make me feel better!</p><p>Thanks, son...</p><p></p><p>Confuzzled, you said, </p><p></p><p>That is something I have noticed - it changes. Not only have stims and tics changed in our kids (sometimes weekly or more often; sometimes decades pass before a stimulant changes) but we find different things presenting.</p><p>easy child 2/difficult child 2 (who we believe is Aspie although doctors won't commit to a full diagnosis, they prefer to say she has "traits" of Asperger's) seems to have become MORE of a problem in the last five years or so. In o ther words, since reaching adulthood, it's become MORE obvious to us. It was like, "Now I'm an adult, I can be myself and stop trying to be normal."</p><p>A lot of her traits were disguised as fun eccentricities. For example, she had (has?) an obsession with furry textures. As a young child, she carried her teddy bear everywhere. When she reached her teens this was not socially acceptable to her peers, so she made a cow-print fur fabric cover for her school folder, then instead of putting her folder in her backpack, she carried it everywhere. Since other girls were decorating their folders with rock group stickers and glitter, easy child 2/difficult child 2's was different and distinctive. She had STYLE. Carrying your folder was a way for girls in her grade to assert their individuality, at a school where school uniforms were mandated strictly.</p><p></p><p>Now she is an adult, married and living independently, she gets her fur fix in other ways. First, her husband is very hairy. Plus she won't let him cut his hair. Next, her beloved teddy bear is still in her bed. I've seen him, sleeping in, cuddling her teddy bear. She has covered her couch with a fur fabric throw. Her love of certain textures has extended to satin and other soft fabrics, plus her need to be held firmly has extended to her buying industrial-strength corsets and wearing them, tightly laced. She buys pretty ones in velvet which she can wear over her (Goth) clothes. She looks like a cross between Morticia Addams and Mary Poppins. With red hair and white skin. OK, her very appearance screams, "I am different!" at people, but her intelligence compensates for any weirdness, she is very well-read. But her appearance automatically winnows out who is prepared to approach her and talk - like-minded people gravitate to her, fast. More conservative people are scared off by her.</p><p></p><p>She can pass for "normal" in the workplace when she has to. One recent workplace had a uniform like a Swiss maiden - cute little lacy cap, frilly apron, full skirt in stripes - she hated it. So she made her own amusement with customers by trying to pretend she had a natural accent form another country. One day she would be Scottish, another day Irish (she tended to prefer Irish). She was trying to master a Welsh accent. She had French down pat. People were very willing to believe she was Irish, with her looks. The degree of detail she would put in to this, was to alleviate the boredom of her job.</p><p></p><p>The problem I have with easy child 2/difficult child 2 is, she doesn't fir the typical Aspie pattern. But I have been told that scientists are now realising that girls are often very different, when it comes to Asperger's. easy child 2/difficult child 2 can do some things which Aspies are not supposed to be good at - she is very imaginative and creative, for example. She is amazing at crafting detailed fictional narratives, stories for children. She identifies with children and I believe in some part of her, she will never grow up, she will always have that Peter Pan aspect to her personality. For someone whose ambition is to be a primary schoolteacher (that's Elementary, in the US) I think that is a quality her students will love.</p><p></p><p>But she gets stressed easily, flies apart so fast you get hit by schrapnel.</p><p></p><p>Another point of interest for you - easy child 2/difficult child 2 has appeared to be not only perfectly normal (and not Aspie or even ADHD in any way) when she was younger, but was assessed as being a child genius. What we missed, was her intense absorption in some specific topic areas. Her interests were broader, so we missed it. But the intensity was always there and as she got older, it narrowed and became more intense and she became more determined to get things her own way.</p><p></p><p>The headbanger stuff - it's maybe a bit like cutting (which easy child 2/difficult child 2 went through a stage of, so did difficult child 1). They didn't cut until their teens, it developed as a result of stress getting out of control and cutting was their way to try to define stress and control it. I think your daughter's headbanging is my kids' cutting. Her headbanging could easily morph into cutting. And they can be very good at hiding it.</p><p></p><p>easy child 2/difficult child 2 still doesn't have a definitive diagnosis. She does have a diagnosis of ADD (inattentive type) which has been enough for her to access services in general (in tertiary education - she had zero support at school). Once she is on the books of the college counsellors here, they work with her intensively to identify the specifics of exactly hat kind of support she is asking for. So she's not searching for a more detailed label just yet - it won't change anything.</p><p></p><p>What you describe as your daughter "talking to an imaginary friend" - there isn't necessarily anything psychotic in that. If your daughter knows, intellectually, that there isn't really anyone there, but she is just using this as a technique to help herself cope, I wouldn't be too concerned. I sometimes talk aloud to myself and even sometimes visualise a different person in my head, like the classic cartoonish "good angel, evil angel" scenario on each shoulder. </p><p></p><p>It is so easy for psychiatrists to see what they're looking for. Especially when dealing with literalmindedness!</p><p></p><p>An Aussie Aspie & author, Wendy Lawson (she wrote "Life Behind Glass") was about 19 (I think) when a psychiatrist asked her, "Do you hear voices?"</p><p>"Of course I do!" she replied. "Doesn't everyone?"</p><p>On the basis of that she was diagnosed with schizophrenia and institutionalised for a number of years.</p><p>Eventually someone realised that she was not schizophrenic. Her answer to that question? "Of course I hear voices. They are vocalisations, they are sound, you hear sound, you don't see it or smell it. What a stupid question!"</p><p></p><p>It is also possible to have more than one condition. </p><p></p><p>Your daughter, if she's Aspie, is likely to be very stressed. She is also likely to be less capable of handling stress. Put those together and these kid can be innovative in the techniques they independently develop to deal with stress. So it stands to reason - even if there is n formal diagnosis, stress management techniques with a therapist can be very helpful.</p><p></p><p>I look at your description of your 17 yo as "cooler than cool" and think of easy child 2/difficult child 2. Also, where you have one Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid in the family, you increase the chances of traits at least, in others. Or as husband puts it, "Autism doesn't just run in our family, it gallops."</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 335338, member: 1991"] MWM, what you're talking about here is conversational ability (ie social skills) rather than language. The "I only want to talk about MY pet topic" is not necessarily connected to language problems, it's a social issue primarily. But I agree - VERY Aspie! Everything MWM has said here (other than my nitpicking over language vs social issues) is the best advice. Also the good news - the smarter the kid is, the better they eventually can adapt and mimic normality. Some people call it "losing the diagnosis" but I really hate that because autism in its various forms, IS for life, but when someone has adapted to the point where they seem perfectly normal, you should never dismiss this. Underneath it all there is still the autistic person concentrating the whole time, to maintain that social normality. They will always be a bit quirky, too, as quirky as they feel they can get away with. They need it to a certain extent, to relive their stress. But they find their niche. Also as MWM indicated, they will increasingly seek out like-minded people as friends. difficult child 1's best friend at school was a classic Aspie, of the withdrawn kind. He was always a big bloke, and his large size plus lack of expression in face and voice had some of the teachers really scared of him. Plus he did crazy things which included demonstrating his lack of pain response. One day he poured lighter fluid over his hand and set fire to it. Or a teacher would walk past and say to him, "Pick up that piece of paper," and instead of rushing to comply, he would stand there, look blankly at the teacher and say, "Say please!" Based on an unsubstantiated and untrue rumour, the acting principal told him he was not welcome to return for his final year. He wouldn't tell his mother (or me) why. difficult child 1 finally told me some years later, and it was a grave injustice. The school did the wrong thing, all round. If the school's suspicions had been right (that he had brought a gun to school), they should have called the police. But the suspicion was based on Chinese Whispers rumour - he had brought his Junior Shooters Licence to school, he had a shotgun on his uncle's property which he sometimes used to help keep the rabbit plague population under control, and in his wallet he kept the licence for that gun. A teacher heard the phrase, "X has brought a gun to school," and told the acting principal. X has remained a very close friend of difficult child 1's. He was Best Man at his wedding, and I think difficult child 1 will be Best Man at his wedding (coming up in the next year). X's mother was at difficult child 1's wedding also. Other friends of my boys - a lot of Asperger's in various forms. difficult child 3's best friend since before Kindergarten, is another boy with autism. Thanks to contacts we have made through difficult child 3's drama class, the kids all worked together on a feature film ("The Black Balloon" with Toni Collette, Luke Ford and Gemma Ward) and more friendships were forged. There are some wonderful qualities in kids on the spectrum. Intense loyalty is one. Despite past views that kids on the spectrum were unemotional, we now know they feel emotions intensely. We just don't always recognise it, through the apparent lack of interest. They show their emotions in different ways. Just because someone with autism isn't smiling, doesn't mean they're not enjoying something. When they DO smile, it lights your world. They are also generally very law-abiding, but only if the rules around them make sense and can be seen to be implemented. If the rules are being constantly broken, it upsets and confuses them and they will not value rules which are being broken. They generally learn not to attempt to tell lies, but this takes more time. They are generally bad at telling a complex lie, plus it often can feel very uncomfortable for them to tell a lie. Over time, the lies ease off as they learn for themselves that truth feels better and frankly is easier. The more you catch them out in lying, the sooner they will morph into truthful beings. But can you handle the truth? It can be painfully sharp sometimes. For example, difficult child 3 said to me, just before I embarked on my doctor-ordered diet, "It's OK, Mum. I love you even though you are fat." That was his attempt to make me feel better! Thanks, son... Confuzzled, you said, That is something I have noticed - it changes. Not only have stims and tics changed in our kids (sometimes weekly or more often; sometimes decades pass before a stimulant changes) but we find different things presenting. easy child 2/difficult child 2 (who we believe is Aspie although doctors won't commit to a full diagnosis, they prefer to say she has "traits" of Asperger's) seems to have become MORE of a problem in the last five years or so. In o ther words, since reaching adulthood, it's become MORE obvious to us. It was like, "Now I'm an adult, I can be myself and stop trying to be normal." A lot of her traits were disguised as fun eccentricities. For example, she had (has?) an obsession with furry textures. As a young child, she carried her teddy bear everywhere. When she reached her teens this was not socially acceptable to her peers, so she made a cow-print fur fabric cover for her school folder, then instead of putting her folder in her backpack, she carried it everywhere. Since other girls were decorating their folders with rock group stickers and glitter, easy child 2/difficult child 2's was different and distinctive. She had STYLE. Carrying your folder was a way for girls in her grade to assert their individuality, at a school where school uniforms were mandated strictly. Now she is an adult, married and living independently, she gets her fur fix in other ways. First, her husband is very hairy. Plus she won't let him cut his hair. Next, her beloved teddy bear is still in her bed. I've seen him, sleeping in, cuddling her teddy bear. She has covered her couch with a fur fabric throw. Her love of certain textures has extended to satin and other soft fabrics, plus her need to be held firmly has extended to her buying industrial-strength corsets and wearing them, tightly laced. She buys pretty ones in velvet which she can wear over her (Goth) clothes. She looks like a cross between Morticia Addams and Mary Poppins. With red hair and white skin. OK, her very appearance screams, "I am different!" at people, but her intelligence compensates for any weirdness, she is very well-read. But her appearance automatically winnows out who is prepared to approach her and talk - like-minded people gravitate to her, fast. More conservative people are scared off by her. She can pass for "normal" in the workplace when she has to. One recent workplace had a uniform like a Swiss maiden - cute little lacy cap, frilly apron, full skirt in stripes - she hated it. So she made her own amusement with customers by trying to pretend she had a natural accent form another country. One day she would be Scottish, another day Irish (she tended to prefer Irish). She was trying to master a Welsh accent. She had French down pat. People were very willing to believe she was Irish, with her looks. The degree of detail she would put in to this, was to alleviate the boredom of her job. The problem I have with easy child 2/difficult child 2 is, she doesn't fir the typical Aspie pattern. But I have been told that scientists are now realising that girls are often very different, when it comes to Asperger's. easy child 2/difficult child 2 can do some things which Aspies are not supposed to be good at - she is very imaginative and creative, for example. She is amazing at crafting detailed fictional narratives, stories for children. She identifies with children and I believe in some part of her, she will never grow up, she will always have that Peter Pan aspect to her personality. For someone whose ambition is to be a primary schoolteacher (that's Elementary, in the US) I think that is a quality her students will love. But she gets stressed easily, flies apart so fast you get hit by schrapnel. Another point of interest for you - easy child 2/difficult child 2 has appeared to be not only perfectly normal (and not Aspie or even ADHD in any way) when she was younger, but was assessed as being a child genius. What we missed, was her intense absorption in some specific topic areas. Her interests were broader, so we missed it. But the intensity was always there and as she got older, it narrowed and became more intense and she became more determined to get things her own way. The headbanger stuff - it's maybe a bit like cutting (which easy child 2/difficult child 2 went through a stage of, so did difficult child 1). They didn't cut until their teens, it developed as a result of stress getting out of control and cutting was their way to try to define stress and control it. I think your daughter's headbanging is my kids' cutting. Her headbanging could easily morph into cutting. And they can be very good at hiding it. easy child 2/difficult child 2 still doesn't have a definitive diagnosis. She does have a diagnosis of ADD (inattentive type) which has been enough for her to access services in general (in tertiary education - she had zero support at school). Once she is on the books of the college counsellors here, they work with her intensively to identify the specifics of exactly hat kind of support she is asking for. So she's not searching for a more detailed label just yet - it won't change anything. What you describe as your daughter "talking to an imaginary friend" - there isn't necessarily anything psychotic in that. If your daughter knows, intellectually, that there isn't really anyone there, but she is just using this as a technique to help herself cope, I wouldn't be too concerned. I sometimes talk aloud to myself and even sometimes visualise a different person in my head, like the classic cartoonish "good angel, evil angel" scenario on each shoulder. It is so easy for psychiatrists to see what they're looking for. Especially when dealing with literalmindedness! An Aussie Aspie & author, Wendy Lawson (she wrote "Life Behind Glass") was about 19 (I think) when a psychiatrist asked her, "Do you hear voices?" "Of course I do!" she replied. "Doesn't everyone?" On the basis of that she was diagnosed with schizophrenia and institutionalised for a number of years. Eventually someone realised that she was not schizophrenic. Her answer to that question? "Of course I hear voices. They are vocalisations, they are sound, you hear sound, you don't see it or smell it. What a stupid question!" It is also possible to have more than one condition. Your daughter, if she's Aspie, is likely to be very stressed. She is also likely to be less capable of handling stress. Put those together and these kid can be innovative in the techniques they independently develop to deal with stress. So it stands to reason - even if there is n formal diagnosis, stress management techniques with a therapist can be very helpful. I look at your description of your 17 yo as "cooler than cool" and think of easy child 2/difficult child 2. Also, where you have one Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid in the family, you increase the chances of traits at least, in others. Or as husband puts it, "Autism doesn't just run in our family, it gallops." Marg [/QUOTE]
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