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Trying to Clarify My Feelings....Opinions Welcome!
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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 359054" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Part of me thinks you MUST have misunderstood here what the therapist meant. Or perhaps it was a throwaway line, "If you could afford to get her a horse, that is one possible reward she could work towards."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would definitely say this to the therapist - "Sure, you say we should get her a horse, do you? So we not only have to acquire the animal, we need to have somewhere to agist it, the horse needs a stable, it needs bedding, it needs feed, it needs tack, there are blacksmith costs, vet bills, various membership fees and other registration fees - and all for someone who likes horses NOW (but didn't a couple of weeks ago); someone who will only be involved in horses if I am NOT involved (but you can't order the world to your specifications like this - and then, what about me and my enjoyment of horses, do my wishes and choices yet again have to be buried in order to cater to someone who frankly hasn't yet earned it?); someone who is notorious for changing her tune from one week to the next? What is to become of the horse, and our damaged finances, when she decides she was right to begin with, she hates horses after all? Even if someone GAVE us a horse, we couldn't afford to keep it."</p><p></p><p>DF, what worries me about this, if this is really a serious suggestion - YOU are the one who loves horses but actually had to give up your position because of difficult child's destructive behaviour. Although in your shoes - if you can get that job back, go for it. You shouldn't quit a job just because your kid is being obnoxious. You shouldn't stop doing ANYTHING merely because your kid is horrible. You have to have other reasons too, that will continue to be valid even if your child's behaviour improves. For example, if you felt you needed to quit the job, ANY job, in order to stay home and supervise difficult child, that would be a valid (but sad) reason. But as soon as you feel you can get back into the workforce - you get the job you want (and the job you can, of course!) regardless of your child's opinions. </p><p></p><p>What seems to be happening here - it's the tail wagging the dog. YOU have had to put your own interests and personal space on hold, when you are not doing anything antisocial, merely to placate someone who is being absolutely vicious and unrealistic. This sends so many bad messages:</p><p></p><p>1) When you put yourself last in ANY family situation, you are telling your family that this is how life should be, the mother is a doormat and there to be walked over. because this is what mothers do. It sets up the family with the expectation that they can walk over other people in the same situation, and they WILL treat other people like dirt, especially people in a service situation, or mothers, or women - whatever the message they pick up. </p><p></p><p>2) If the children getting this message later become mothers themselves (and sometimes those who become fathers) - they tend to become doormats themselves. They will endure abuse from a spouse, from kids, from employers - from anyone.</p><p></p><p>3) The expectation of entitlement then comes into play - "the world owes me everything I want, just because I stand here breathing." Even if you made them earn their privileges, the sense of entitlement that your apparent sacrifice has taught them, tells them otherwise and they will fight you all the harder when you try to make them accountable. "Why should I have to be accountable? You'll give me what I want anyway. Or if you don't give it to me, I will take it because it's already mine. Everything is."</p><p></p><p>4) Now comes the hatred. And worse than hatred in my opinion, the child despises the parent, looks down on them and considers them to be inferior, someone to be ashamed of. It's like admitting to the world that you have to deal with the hired help, and they really are not good at their job. Nothing will ever be good enough.</p><p></p><p>All of these come when you as a parent sacrifice too much of yourself. It is a BAD thing, for you to be selfless and a martyr. </p><p></p><p>DF, your daughter has made you a martyr, she treats you like dirt. And the therapist, by asking you to give up even more in order to placate someone who already has a sense of entitlement, clearly doesn't get it. Or we have got it wrong - I'm rather horrified if the therapist has missed this very big point.</p><p></p><p>There are too many steps to do first, before you begin to do things like buying your daughter a horse.</p><p></p><p>Now to reward systems - I do believe in them. They do work. But this would actually not be a reward system. It would be playing to difficult child's sense of entitlement, and would backfire badly. A kid who believes the world owes her, a difficult child who just takes it anyway when it doesn't get handed to her, is NOT a difficult child who can work well with a material reward system. And reward systems frankly should NOT be material, if you can avoid it.</p><p></p><p>Example - we have a non-material reward system in place with difficult child 3. Yes, we do have material rewards also, but they are fairly small and simple - a snack-size chocolate bar handed over immediately, when he really works had on his schoolwork for a fixed (short) period of time. I am trying to teach his brain how to bypass his extreme distractibility, and for this I need something with a fast sensory kickback.</p><p>another reward system we have in place - after working hard all ay on schoolwork and also achieving a certain level, he can earn a driving lesson. Now, he hasn't yet realised - he is getting driving lessons anyway, he won't miss out. But I need the immediate reward for schooldays when he has really worked well, so I will take him for a short drive in my car (if we haven't got husband's car, the one difficult child 3 really needs to learn on the most). And the longer-term outcome of this - difficult child 3 is learning to work more effectively.</p><p>Another very much non-material reward - difficult child 3 can earn time with me playing a computer game with him. Since he loves gaming and also feels the lack of someone to play a computer game with, for difficult child 3 this is an effective reward.</p><p></p><p>Now to your difficult child. She claims to hate you. Really hate you. Some of this is typical teen stuff (unfortunately) and possibly a lot of it is her sense of entitlement coupled with your past extreme sacrifice for her. You need to stop going without, to give GG what she wants. You need your personal space, you need your own interests, you need a part of you to be kept apart from your family. ALL your family.</p><p></p><p>So find a hobby. If it's horses, then great. Make sure you have time with horses away from difficult child. If difficult child wants to be with horses, then she has to accept your involvement. Your own horse experience comes first, it does not take a back seat to difficult child. NO KID CAN DICTATE - "I will only be with horses if my mother is not involved." Sorry, that is mean, that is selfish and that totally undermines any benefit. The tail just wagged the dog again.</p><p></p><p>Whatever you do for yourself, try to keep it fairly non-material. In oter words, going out and buying yourself a heap of clothes is not the hobby I mean. You need something you can do for yourself, something you can develop skills with. Something you can do alone, or with people not your family. </p><p>Suggestions for your personal space - read a book. Read lots of books. Join a book club. Go bushwalking (or whatever you call it in your part of the world). Take up painting (like Linda has done). Or writing. Join a class, or join a local group and meet together with them to work on your hobby. If there is no local group, form one. A group of local mothers in our village did this - three of them would get together one day a week and paint. They painted on whatever they could fin - old tea trays, old bits of plywood left out in the rain, bits of things rescued form scrapheaps. Then they sold their artwork, had exhibitions, enjoyed it, did well. The group has since split up and gone separate ways but are still friends, each of them now moving on with their art in different ways. But for that short while, they were well known here and what is MOST important here - RESPECTED.</p><p></p><p>First, DF< you need to rediscover your self-resepct. Then you need to earn respect from others outside your family. This will help boost your own self-respect. Then tywo things will happen:</p><p></p><p>1) You will be seen as respected by others and this sends a strong message to your family. Use it. Value it.</p><p></p><p>2) You will learn to value others' opinions and be less hurt by family's disrespect. </p><p></p><p>All of this snowballs positively.</p><p></p><p>So forget about buying difficult child a horse. You can't afford it anyway, it was a stupid idea, but sometimes stupid ideas get floated because they can lead to better ideas. Don't beat up on the therapist for a stupid idea. Because by floating it, she has raised this discussion and it has led to this - YOU NEED TO FIND SOMETHING YOU CAN DO FOR YOURSELF, OUTSIDE THE FAMILY. </p><p></p><p>In my family, my writing is sacrosanct. I am also respected outside the family as a writer. Yes, there are those in the community who are scathing about my writing (two stalkers, for example) but there are enough people whose opinions I respect, who DO value my work, for me to shrug off the nasty remarks. That doesn't mean I shut off all debate on any shortcomings of my work - not at all. If you never allow criticism, you never grow as an artist. But you need to learn to read the difference between genuine criticism and pure spite.</p><p></p><p>Genuine criticism - "You're a bad mother because you impulsively went for a drink after work and didn't come home until after 9 pm and hadn't made other arrangements for dinner or babysitting for your five year old."</p><p></p><p>Spite - "You're a bad mother because you never do anything for me, it's always about you. I need you to buy me what I want to make up for your neglect."</p><p></p><p>Remember - yes, you are a mother. And tradition tells us that mothers are supremely self-sacrificing. But you are a woman first, an individual whose needs as a person must be met, BEFORE you can be a good mother.</p><p></p><p>Forget the therapist. Worry about YOU.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 359054, member: 1991"] Part of me thinks you MUST have misunderstood here what the therapist meant. Or perhaps it was a throwaway line, "If you could afford to get her a horse, that is one possible reward she could work towards." I would definitely say this to the therapist - "Sure, you say we should get her a horse, do you? So we not only have to acquire the animal, we need to have somewhere to agist it, the horse needs a stable, it needs bedding, it needs feed, it needs tack, there are blacksmith costs, vet bills, various membership fees and other registration fees - and all for someone who likes horses NOW (but didn't a couple of weeks ago); someone who will only be involved in horses if I am NOT involved (but you can't order the world to your specifications like this - and then, what about me and my enjoyment of horses, do my wishes and choices yet again have to be buried in order to cater to someone who frankly hasn't yet earned it?); someone who is notorious for changing her tune from one week to the next? What is to become of the horse, and our damaged finances, when she decides she was right to begin with, she hates horses after all? Even if someone GAVE us a horse, we couldn't afford to keep it." DF, what worries me about this, if this is really a serious suggestion - YOU are the one who loves horses but actually had to give up your position because of difficult child's destructive behaviour. Although in your shoes - if you can get that job back, go for it. You shouldn't quit a job just because your kid is being obnoxious. You shouldn't stop doing ANYTHING merely because your kid is horrible. You have to have other reasons too, that will continue to be valid even if your child's behaviour improves. For example, if you felt you needed to quit the job, ANY job, in order to stay home and supervise difficult child, that would be a valid (but sad) reason. But as soon as you feel you can get back into the workforce - you get the job you want (and the job you can, of course!) regardless of your child's opinions. What seems to be happening here - it's the tail wagging the dog. YOU have had to put your own interests and personal space on hold, when you are not doing anything antisocial, merely to placate someone who is being absolutely vicious and unrealistic. This sends so many bad messages: 1) When you put yourself last in ANY family situation, you are telling your family that this is how life should be, the mother is a doormat and there to be walked over. because this is what mothers do. It sets up the family with the expectation that they can walk over other people in the same situation, and they WILL treat other people like dirt, especially people in a service situation, or mothers, or women - whatever the message they pick up. 2) If the children getting this message later become mothers themselves (and sometimes those who become fathers) - they tend to become doormats themselves. They will endure abuse from a spouse, from kids, from employers - from anyone. 3) The expectation of entitlement then comes into play - "the world owes me everything I want, just because I stand here breathing." Even if you made them earn their privileges, the sense of entitlement that your apparent sacrifice has taught them, tells them otherwise and they will fight you all the harder when you try to make them accountable. "Why should I have to be accountable? You'll give me what I want anyway. Or if you don't give it to me, I will take it because it's already mine. Everything is." 4) Now comes the hatred. And worse than hatred in my opinion, the child despises the parent, looks down on them and considers them to be inferior, someone to be ashamed of. It's like admitting to the world that you have to deal with the hired help, and they really are not good at their job. Nothing will ever be good enough. All of these come when you as a parent sacrifice too much of yourself. It is a BAD thing, for you to be selfless and a martyr. DF, your daughter has made you a martyr, she treats you like dirt. And the therapist, by asking you to give up even more in order to placate someone who already has a sense of entitlement, clearly doesn't get it. Or we have got it wrong - I'm rather horrified if the therapist has missed this very big point. There are too many steps to do first, before you begin to do things like buying your daughter a horse. Now to reward systems - I do believe in them. They do work. But this would actually not be a reward system. It would be playing to difficult child's sense of entitlement, and would backfire badly. A kid who believes the world owes her, a difficult child who just takes it anyway when it doesn't get handed to her, is NOT a difficult child who can work well with a material reward system. And reward systems frankly should NOT be material, if you can avoid it. Example - we have a non-material reward system in place with difficult child 3. Yes, we do have material rewards also, but they are fairly small and simple - a snack-size chocolate bar handed over immediately, when he really works had on his schoolwork for a fixed (short) period of time. I am trying to teach his brain how to bypass his extreme distractibility, and for this I need something with a fast sensory kickback. another reward system we have in place - after working hard all ay on schoolwork and also achieving a certain level, he can earn a driving lesson. Now, he hasn't yet realised - he is getting driving lessons anyway, he won't miss out. But I need the immediate reward for schooldays when he has really worked well, so I will take him for a short drive in my car (if we haven't got husband's car, the one difficult child 3 really needs to learn on the most). And the longer-term outcome of this - difficult child 3 is learning to work more effectively. Another very much non-material reward - difficult child 3 can earn time with me playing a computer game with him. Since he loves gaming and also feels the lack of someone to play a computer game with, for difficult child 3 this is an effective reward. Now to your difficult child. She claims to hate you. Really hate you. Some of this is typical teen stuff (unfortunately) and possibly a lot of it is her sense of entitlement coupled with your past extreme sacrifice for her. You need to stop going without, to give GG what she wants. You need your personal space, you need your own interests, you need a part of you to be kept apart from your family. ALL your family. So find a hobby. If it's horses, then great. Make sure you have time with horses away from difficult child. If difficult child wants to be with horses, then she has to accept your involvement. Your own horse experience comes first, it does not take a back seat to difficult child. NO KID CAN DICTATE - "I will only be with horses if my mother is not involved." Sorry, that is mean, that is selfish and that totally undermines any benefit. The tail just wagged the dog again. Whatever you do for yourself, try to keep it fairly non-material. In oter words, going out and buying yourself a heap of clothes is not the hobby I mean. You need something you can do for yourself, something you can develop skills with. Something you can do alone, or with people not your family. Suggestions for your personal space - read a book. Read lots of books. Join a book club. Go bushwalking (or whatever you call it in your part of the world). Take up painting (like Linda has done). Or writing. Join a class, or join a local group and meet together with them to work on your hobby. If there is no local group, form one. A group of local mothers in our village did this - three of them would get together one day a week and paint. They painted on whatever they could fin - old tea trays, old bits of plywood left out in the rain, bits of things rescued form scrapheaps. Then they sold their artwork, had exhibitions, enjoyed it, did well. The group has since split up and gone separate ways but are still friends, each of them now moving on with their art in different ways. But for that short while, they were well known here and what is MOST important here - RESPECTED. First, DF< you need to rediscover your self-resepct. Then you need to earn respect from others outside your family. This will help boost your own self-respect. Then tywo things will happen: 1) You will be seen as respected by others and this sends a strong message to your family. Use it. Value it. 2) You will learn to value others' opinions and be less hurt by family's disrespect. All of this snowballs positively. So forget about buying difficult child a horse. You can't afford it anyway, it was a stupid idea, but sometimes stupid ideas get floated because they can lead to better ideas. Don't beat up on the therapist for a stupid idea. Because by floating it, she has raised this discussion and it has led to this - YOU NEED TO FIND SOMETHING YOU CAN DO FOR YOURSELF, OUTSIDE THE FAMILY. In my family, my writing is sacrosanct. I am also respected outside the family as a writer. Yes, there are those in the community who are scathing about my writing (two stalkers, for example) but there are enough people whose opinions I respect, who DO value my work, for me to shrug off the nasty remarks. That doesn't mean I shut off all debate on any shortcomings of my work - not at all. If you never allow criticism, you never grow as an artist. But you need to learn to read the difference between genuine criticism and pure spite. Genuine criticism - "You're a bad mother because you impulsively went for a drink after work and didn't come home until after 9 pm and hadn't made other arrangements for dinner or babysitting for your five year old." Spite - "You're a bad mother because you never do anything for me, it's always about you. I need you to buy me what I want to make up for your neglect." Remember - yes, you are a mother. And tradition tells us that mothers are supremely self-sacrificing. But you are a woman first, an individual whose needs as a person must be met, BEFORE you can be a good mother. Forget the therapist. Worry about YOU. Marg [/QUOTE]
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