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Trying to keep 1st gr. son from alt. school (for 2nd time) - a mother's vent for help
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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 387373" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Yep. That's why I copied the above quote. I know he said he does it to make his teacher mad, but to these kids there is some voluntary component to stimming. It does rapidly become a habit, but the need to make SOME sort of noise is greater the more stressed or anxious they are. Also, some noise-making can be subconscious. We would notice a sort of throat growl when the boys were concentrating. Interesting - I haven't noticed it much lately, in either of them. I do think they've possibly outgrown the vocalisation, possibly replaced it with something more subtle. They do find other ways to cope s they get older.</p><p></p><p>I'll go back to the beginning of what I meant to say - I think your son needs to be evaluated for Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) in some form. It may be mild, but if he's anxious, there may be a lot more 'need' to stimulant, as a coping mechanism. And if he is angry at his teacher, he may be NOT avoiding stims that bring attention. </p><p></p><p>I'll give you a hypothetical example, based on my experience. Consider a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) child whose main stims are a moderately quiet growl, and a loud throat clearing. In an otherwise supportive environment, he will get teased for the noises. The teacher might get annoyed, especially if she thinks he is doing it on purpose. Initially she might say, "For pete's sake, get a glass of water so you can stop clearing your throat!" She might even say, "You're doing this deliberately! Stop it!" and a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid can eventually accept this as truth. When working quietly, the the throat growl can become louder and more frequent. Kids sitting nearby can complain. The teacher can get angry again, but the kid may not even realise, under those circumstances, that he was making a noise. But the throat clear - he may be more aware of that.Generally as time goes by, the kid tries to reduce the sounds he makes, but there seems to always be some noise or other. He might make a funny noise one day and get a payoff - maybe someone laughs. He makes the noise again, or he might be trying to reproduce a sound he has heard and wants to be able to imitate. But very quickly, it becomes an uncontrollable habit.</p><p></p><p>In a more challenging environment, a kid who is feeling angry and defiant could step UP the noise type (to a louder, more disruptive one) initially to annoy the teacher, but quickly (in Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)) it becomes just another stimulant he has less control of than he realises.</p><p></p><p>Now back to my reality - difficult child 1, when he was about 20, got a volunteer job in a local zoo. He loved the animals and was sent to clean out the animal pens and then feed them. His main equipment was a shovel and a wheelbarrow. He found the emus fascinating - he's always had a special interest in birds, and emus are among the biggest. The male emu makes a noise that sounds like someone opening a flap valve on a long hollow pipe. I guess considering the length of an emu throat, that is pretty close to how the noise is made. difficult child 1 tried to imitate this and got it down well. But then he found he couldn't stop. We had the male emu quiet booming noise all around us, constantly.</p><p></p><p>If this is Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), then anyone trying to use strong control to direct hi, is going to be heading into big trouble. NEVER use force (including force of will) or any confrontation/direct oppostition to stop behaviour you do not want, in someone with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). They learn by following example, and using opposition to control them only teaches them to be oppositional. Especially if the behaviour the adult is trying to control, is behaviour that is less under the child's voluntary control than anyone realises.</p><p></p><p>Much better to use redirection.</p><p></p><p>Another source of raging in Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), in our experience, was contradictory instructions. Example again - difficult child 3 was holding a book and his class teacher said to him, "When you have finished, put the book back on my desk." He then left the room. </p><p>Another teacher came in. "Class, we are now going to the school hall. Line up now, and follow me."</p><p>difficult child 3 tried to say, "I have to put this book on my teacher's desk," but the new teacher, who did not know difficult child 2 well, would not permit. The book could wait, they wouldn't be in the hall for long. But the further away they got from the teacher's desk, the more upset difficult child 3 became until by the time they got to the school hall he had stopped arguing about the book and was now screaming. He got into the hall and began throwing chairs. The class teacher was sent for, he took the book from difficult child 3 (which reduced the initial trigger, but now he was raging) and the class teacher then took difficult child 3 with him to a quiet place, for him to calm down. difficult child 3 was not punished, because the powers-that-be realised the trigger was not his fault. Besides, difficult child 3 knew he had done the wrong thing and was contrite - punishment would achieve nothing more. He did have to apologise, but he was doing that freely, once he stopped being upset. difficult child 3 did remain angry with the teacher who wouldn't allow him to do what he had been told to do, however. And even now, he has a very keen sense of justice and if he thinks something is unfair or wrong, he can be VERY judgemental. He's currently learning to drive and is often distracted by another driver doing something illegal or idiotic.</p><p></p><p>Suggest to the class teacher that she try redirection. Avoid using negative instructions; instead, word them positively. For example, a difficult child tapping a pencil on a desk (yep, another thing they can do without realising). Instead of saying, "difficult child, stop tapping that pencil," (because it can heighten anxiety and actually increase the pencil tapping!) the teacher should try, "difficult child, put down that pencil and come here." Immediately, the task is changing and the opportunity to tap the pencil stops, so the habit chain is broken.</p><p></p><p>How old is he? When difficult child 3 had his chair throwing episode (the one I describe) he was 11 years old. But the raging and teacher triggering rages - that had been happening for several years. He was actually improved by 11. He also was being triggered by other kids, especially kids who would deliberately upset him, including in class, in order to get a reaction. The teacher only saw the reaction, although visitors to the classroom saw it all and reported it to me, so I can't see how the teachers did not know about the other kids doing things to difficult child 3 to make him explode.</p><p></p><p>Another thing to look at, for a consideration (informally) for Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), is the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire on <a href="http://www.childbrain.com" target="_blank">www.childbrain.com</a>. Print out whatever you get and take it to the neuropsychologist, to indicate your areas of concern. Despite your training and experience, this is your child and you are used to him; there could be things he is doing that you may not realise are atypical. I also had teacher training, but was unable to see my kids in comparison to other kids - what I saw revery day seemed normal to me, but very definitely was not. difficult child 1 was 14 before he got a diagnosis of Asperger's. before tat, we just thought it was severe ADHD. medications for ADHD have helped all three of our younger kids.</p><p></p><p>Sorry you need us but glad we are here for you. Welcome.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 387373, member: 1991"] Yep. That's why I copied the above quote. I know he said he does it to make his teacher mad, but to these kids there is some voluntary component to stimming. It does rapidly become a habit, but the need to make SOME sort of noise is greater the more stressed or anxious they are. Also, some noise-making can be subconscious. We would notice a sort of throat growl when the boys were concentrating. Interesting - I haven't noticed it much lately, in either of them. I do think they've possibly outgrown the vocalisation, possibly replaced it with something more subtle. They do find other ways to cope s they get older. I'll go back to the beginning of what I meant to say - I think your son needs to be evaluated for Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) in some form. It may be mild, but if he's anxious, there may be a lot more 'need' to stimulant, as a coping mechanism. And if he is angry at his teacher, he may be NOT avoiding stims that bring attention. I'll give you a hypothetical example, based on my experience. Consider a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) child whose main stims are a moderately quiet growl, and a loud throat clearing. In an otherwise supportive environment, he will get teased for the noises. The teacher might get annoyed, especially if she thinks he is doing it on purpose. Initially she might say, "For pete's sake, get a glass of water so you can stop clearing your throat!" She might even say, "You're doing this deliberately! Stop it!" and a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid can eventually accept this as truth. When working quietly, the the throat growl can become louder and more frequent. Kids sitting nearby can complain. The teacher can get angry again, but the kid may not even realise, under those circumstances, that he was making a noise. But the throat clear - he may be more aware of that.Generally as time goes by, the kid tries to reduce the sounds he makes, but there seems to always be some noise or other. He might make a funny noise one day and get a payoff - maybe someone laughs. He makes the noise again, or he might be trying to reproduce a sound he has heard and wants to be able to imitate. But very quickly, it becomes an uncontrollable habit. In a more challenging environment, a kid who is feeling angry and defiant could step UP the noise type (to a louder, more disruptive one) initially to annoy the teacher, but quickly (in Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)) it becomes just another stimulant he has less control of than he realises. Now back to my reality - difficult child 1, when he was about 20, got a volunteer job in a local zoo. He loved the animals and was sent to clean out the animal pens and then feed them. His main equipment was a shovel and a wheelbarrow. He found the emus fascinating - he's always had a special interest in birds, and emus are among the biggest. The male emu makes a noise that sounds like someone opening a flap valve on a long hollow pipe. I guess considering the length of an emu throat, that is pretty close to how the noise is made. difficult child 1 tried to imitate this and got it down well. But then he found he couldn't stop. We had the male emu quiet booming noise all around us, constantly. If this is Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), then anyone trying to use strong control to direct hi, is going to be heading into big trouble. NEVER use force (including force of will) or any confrontation/direct oppostition to stop behaviour you do not want, in someone with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). They learn by following example, and using opposition to control them only teaches them to be oppositional. Especially if the behaviour the adult is trying to control, is behaviour that is less under the child's voluntary control than anyone realises. Much better to use redirection. Another source of raging in Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), in our experience, was contradictory instructions. Example again - difficult child 3 was holding a book and his class teacher said to him, "When you have finished, put the book back on my desk." He then left the room. Another teacher came in. "Class, we are now going to the school hall. Line up now, and follow me." difficult child 3 tried to say, "I have to put this book on my teacher's desk," but the new teacher, who did not know difficult child 2 well, would not permit. The book could wait, they wouldn't be in the hall for long. But the further away they got from the teacher's desk, the more upset difficult child 3 became until by the time they got to the school hall he had stopped arguing about the book and was now screaming. He got into the hall and began throwing chairs. The class teacher was sent for, he took the book from difficult child 3 (which reduced the initial trigger, but now he was raging) and the class teacher then took difficult child 3 with him to a quiet place, for him to calm down. difficult child 3 was not punished, because the powers-that-be realised the trigger was not his fault. Besides, difficult child 3 knew he had done the wrong thing and was contrite - punishment would achieve nothing more. He did have to apologise, but he was doing that freely, once he stopped being upset. difficult child 3 did remain angry with the teacher who wouldn't allow him to do what he had been told to do, however. And even now, he has a very keen sense of justice and if he thinks something is unfair or wrong, he can be VERY judgemental. He's currently learning to drive and is often distracted by another driver doing something illegal or idiotic. Suggest to the class teacher that she try redirection. Avoid using negative instructions; instead, word them positively. For example, a difficult child tapping a pencil on a desk (yep, another thing they can do without realising). Instead of saying, "difficult child, stop tapping that pencil," (because it can heighten anxiety and actually increase the pencil tapping!) the teacher should try, "difficult child, put down that pencil and come here." Immediately, the task is changing and the opportunity to tap the pencil stops, so the habit chain is broken. How old is he? When difficult child 3 had his chair throwing episode (the one I describe) he was 11 years old. But the raging and teacher triggering rages - that had been happening for several years. He was actually improved by 11. He also was being triggered by other kids, especially kids who would deliberately upset him, including in class, in order to get a reaction. The teacher only saw the reaction, although visitors to the classroom saw it all and reported it to me, so I can't see how the teachers did not know about the other kids doing things to difficult child 3 to make him explode. Another thing to look at, for a consideration (informally) for Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), is the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire on [url]www.childbrain.com[/url]. Print out whatever you get and take it to the neuropsychologist, to indicate your areas of concern. Despite your training and experience, this is your child and you are used to him; there could be things he is doing that you may not realise are atypical. I also had teacher training, but was unable to see my kids in comparison to other kids - what I saw revery day seemed normal to me, but very definitely was not. difficult child 1 was 14 before he got a diagnosis of Asperger's. before tat, we just thought it was severe ADHD. medications for ADHD have helped all three of our younger kids. Sorry you need us but glad we are here for you. Welcome. Marg [/QUOTE]
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