rebelson
Active Member
How long have you been 'sober'?
A View From The Other Side (Fairly Long)
- Thread starter DarkwingPsyduck
- Start date
How long have you been 'sober'?
Sister's Keeper
Active Member
I would like to offer my opinion on this, if no one minds, and it is, really, only my opinion, not based in any fact or research.
I support the legalization of marijuana, and I don't think that daily use, or daily use of alcohol, is a problem for the average person. I think it is a different issue entirely when we are discussing an addict.
I know many people who can have a glass of wine with dinner or before bed, and that's it. It's all good, the amount doesn't increase, and it doesn't affect their life in any way. If they miss a day, no big deal, either. I know people who are the same with pot. I think with people with addiction, it is an entirely different story. I think that any substance that works on those receptors in the brain that trigger addiction can, and most likely will, set off a death spiral for people with addiction, and should be avoided.
As an example. I am not a big drinker. I would call myself a "special occasion drinker." The occasional nice dinner out, holidays, vacation. I can have a drink or 2 and then not touch it again for months. The last drink I had was New Years Eve, as an example. An alcoholic can't have one drink and move on. One drink signals those receptors in the brain, and it's off to the races. A coworker of mine, a recovering alcoholic tried to explain it to me, but he said it's a very hard concept for non addicts to understand. He said there is no way he can have 1 beer. 1 beer is going to lead to another, to a 6 pack, to a case, etc. There is something about it that he cannot control
Another example. I had minor surgery a few years back. My doctor gave me a prescription for 50 percocet. I took a total of 6 and the remaining 44 sat in my medicine cabinet for a year and a half until I disposed of them. I would imagine something like that would be beyond the realm of imagination for someone like DWP or my sister (drug of choice being opiates) because that one pill would signal those receptors in the brain that cry "MORE!"
My sister is the same DWP, her D.O.C. is heroin, but if somebody has crack, she will smoke that, or take some E if that's around, or an oxy (she can't afford that) her last resort is alcohol, but she will drink if it comes to it. To my knowledge, and I may be wrong, but meth isn't in her wheelhouse, but it's not a huge thing around here, either.
I could be wrong here, and correct me if I am, but I think a large part of the problems with opiates is the physical addiction and withdrawal. I think that opiate addicts are likely to use what they can to stave off being dope sick until they can get their next fix.
DarkwingPsyduck
Active Member
Thank you guys for the encouragement. I think you are making the easy mistake of thinking that an addiction to one substance is inherently worse than another substance. And that is not the case. Meth doesn't come with much of a withdrawal. People coming off it will sleep and eat, a lot, but that's as far as it goes in terms of physical effects. Alcohol and benzos are potentially life threatening to stop cold turkey. Opiates are the ones I am intimately familiar with, and I could go on for days describing the experiences in detail. but the words just don't do it justice. Incapable of falling asleep for 3-4 days straight, inability to keep food down, inability to feel any comfort. Inability to control body temperature. Sweating one moment, freezing the next. Unbearable discomfort in the legs, no matter how much you work or stretch them out. The worst part, however, was sleep. People aren't supposed to spend that much time in between naps. It messed with my head in very noticeable ways. It is the loneliness, though... Normal people are asleep, but I couldn't. And that is a lot of alone time to handle. Never got any easier, either. It was hell in almost every single way.
However, that was the easy part. Imagine the worst flu you have ever had, multiply it by 10, and take away the possibility for sleep, and you're pretty close to that experience. The difficult part comes next. And at that stage, all addicts are equal. We have the same basic problems. No matter what we were addicted to, it is this step that is identical for everybody. There is no such thing as "not that bad" of a drug addict. Even though we have all tried to rationalize that during use. You are never as bad as HIM, or HIM, so it isn't a real issue. Until of course, you are worse than HIM, or HIM. This is why humility is so crucial. I am no better or worse than my sister, who is actively using meth, booze, and benzos.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I agree with you. I am always surprised at how, because so many people like to get tipsy on alcohol and its legal, I have heard many parents " glad" that their kids "just" drink, even though they likely dont know how much and alcoholism.runs in families. They ignore all those who die because of alcohol.
I dont know what pot does. I do know it seems to kill motivation and can lead to harder drugs. And it stays in your system frackin' 4ever. So if you smoke every day, is there a huge build up? Are you EVER really sober if pot is a daily habit?
I dont know what pot does. I do know it seems to kill motivation and can lead to harder drugs. And it stays in your system frackin' 4ever. So if you smoke every day, is there a huge build up? Are you EVER really sober if pot is a daily habit?
DarkwingPsyduck
Active Member
Well, regardless of how you feel about pot usage, one thing that isn't up for discussion is that pot is a mind altering substance. That simple. It can have it's uses, it's benefits when taken responsibly, under supervision of a real doctor. The same way pain management is supposed to be done. Unfortunately for many, a lot of doctors really aren't qualified to do it right. They don't set out to mess people up, but ignorance is dangerous. On other forums, I have spoken to middle aged to senior age who come on asking why they feel the physical symptoms they are feeling. Never once considering that it was due to the cessation of pain medications their doctor had them on for far too long. They didn't take it excessively or recreationally. They merely trusted their doctor. Those people were't drug addicts, though. They were physically dependent, but that is a very different thing than being an addict. As I say, withdrawal is nothing compared to the real healing. And those people ONLY need to do the easy part. My point is that no two stories are exactly identical, and I cannot speak for everybody else, but I don't think it's a good idea for any addict early in recovery, like myself, to even mess around with mind altering substances. It gets in the way of experience TRUE sobriety. And if we don't get to experience the benefits from that, why would we keep it?
The answer to your last question is no, you are not sober if you're using mind altering substances. Recreationally, or otherwise. Physically speaking, pot isn't that harmful, especially when compared to the un natural medications and meth and coke. It does less damage than smoking cigarettes. It's probably okay for people who don't suffer from a highly addictive personality. But for those of us that do, we really should stay away from it. THC stays in the system VERY long. It can be detected in hair for months after last use. It is different for everybody, though. I am a pretty small guy. Skinny. I have a VERY fast metabolism. I would feel withdrawal symptoms a good 12 hours earlier than most of my friends who were using the same amount of the same drug. So it can vary, but, with buildup, it can be detected for months.
toughlovin
Well-Known Member
Thanks DarkWing for your perspective. I know my son started with pot and tried other things, although as a teen I think his drug of choice was pot. But it was also true that he would use anything to get high.... So if pot wasn't available he would drink robitussin or try whatever he could find. That is what scared us because he literally would try anything. I think eventually alcohol became his drug of choice because it was easily available especially after he turned 21.
This is my big concern with the legalization of pot. I have no moral issue at all with people who smoke pot once in a while, or have a drink once in a while. And most people can do those things in moderation and that's fine. My big concern is with young teens..... It just seems to me that if pot is legal it will likely be even easier to get than it is now..... And that is my concern is young teens.... But philosophically I think it should be legal but I am worried about the practicalities of it all.
This is my big concern with the legalization of pot. I have no moral issue at all with people who smoke pot once in a while, or have a drink once in a while. And most people can do those things in moderation and that's fine. My big concern is with young teens..... It just seems to me that if pot is legal it will likely be even easier to get than it is now..... And that is my concern is young teens.... But philosophically I think it should be legal but I am worried about the practicalities of it all.
Sister's Keeper
Active Member
This is what I was saying. That people who have a problem with addiction should stay away from mind altering substances, whether they are legal, or not. But people who do not have issues with addiction can, and do use marijuana and alcohol on a daily basis without increasing their usage or need, or without it having a grave effect on their lives.
I have never suggested that any one addiction is "better" or "worse" than another. Any addiction that is affecting your life in an adverse way is a bad thing, but these 2 drugs seem to be the ones that some people can use socially. I have never heard of a social crack smoker or heroin or meth user. It just doesn't seem possible with these drugs.
Obviously if someone is smoking pot or drinking to the point where they can't get their ass out of bed except to eat, or they can't keep a job because they are always high, and they are committing crimes to get it, then it is on the same level as any other drug of abuse.
I am most familiar with opiates. My sister, and the other opiate addicts I have met seem to have a nearly mortal fear of going into withdrawal. That is where I think that the crossover drug abuse occurs. If they can't get their D.O.C. they will substitute whatever they can get to try to stave off the withdrawal.
The odd thing, I find, is that there are addicts that only drink alcohol, but will not touch any other substance, yet the people who use other substances almost always drink if it's available.
I also think that alcohol is the true "gateway drug." If there is one. Again, only my opinion, but I think people that have the predilection towards addiction whatever their 1st drug they experiment with is going to be their "gateway drug." I think if they have the right combination of genetics and emotional/coping problems whatever psychoactive substance they experiment with, whether it's pot, or booze, or pills, or cocaine, it's going to be "the one."
DarkwingPsyduck
Active Member
I hear you. It is even worse in a place like Reno. There really isn't a whole lot of good, family oriented, wholesome activities around here.
Yeah, I don't think teenagers should touch the stuff. It lowers inhibition, and reaction timing. You never hear of a guy getting stoned out of his gourd, and beating the
out of his girlfriend or anything like that, but you do hear stories about parents who got high and failed to prevent their toddlers from putting their hands in a light socket, or something like that. It is better in some ways, and worse in some ways. All depends on the person. As you said, most people could do it in moderation, but not a drug addict. The ultimate goal of sobriety IS sobriety, And you can't have sobriety AND recreational drugs. One or the other.
Yeah, I don't think teenagers should touch the stuff. It lowers inhibition, and reaction timing. You never hear of a guy getting stoned out of his gourd, and beating the
out of his girlfriend or anything like that, but you do hear stories about parents who got high and failed to prevent their toddlers from putting their hands in a light socket, or something like that. It is better in some ways, and worse in some ways. All depends on the person. As you said, most people could do it in moderation, but not a drug addict. The ultimate goal of sobriety IS sobriety, And you can't have sobriety AND recreational drugs. One or the other.
DarkwingPsyduck
Active Member
Alcoholism is more devastating to the body than most other substances. To the liver, the brain, everything. People actually die from going cold turkey with it. Benzos are very similar in that regard. I will say that, for me, I ONLY ever drank when I didn't have my drug of choice. When I did have my stuff, alcohol would only have dimmed the sensation of my drug. I imagine the reason most drunks don't turn to other substances when out of booze is because NOTHING can even begin to take the place of the alcohol. Not only with they be horribly ill, no amount of pot is gonna help. It is also very dangerous to mix ANYTHING with the alcohol and/or benzos.
Then again, I am not a drunk... And there are noticeable differences in the thinking and behavior between a drunk and a pill popper, just don't really have a good answer for why that is. Like I said, I didn't have a problem with booze. I was a social, recreational drinker. I don't drink now, however. I don't know how I would react to it, and I am afraid to find out. Don't want to mess with what I know is working for something that may very well screw it all up. Not worth the risk, I suppose.
DarkwingPsyduck
Active Member
There's another saying which I have found to be pretty accurate a lot of the times. Drunks will steal your wallet, then confess to it in tears the next morning. Junkies will steal your wallet, and spend the next 5 hours tearing the house apart with you to find it.
Does that sound about right?
Does that sound about right?
DarkwingPsyduck
Active Member
Sorry. missed your post. Just over a year.
rebelson
Active Member
Do you know what your triggers are?
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Trouble is, how do you know if you will become an alcoholic or unable to live without pot until you try it?Isn't every new user at risk? by the way, thanks a lot for this thread. I value the sight from the other side. You are very articulate too.
DarkwingPsyduck
Active Member
I do. Unfortunately, just about every aspect of my life was a trigger. There was very few positive things to say about me, or the way I lived. While my friends were like family, we fed off each other, and amplified each other. Unintentionally making us all that much worse. I have essentially destroyed my life, and am in the process of rebuilding it. I had to go all the way to the foundations. After my mom died, and I was on my own, I dropped out of school. Worked when I could, but spent most of the time partying, with one girl to the next. I didn't have anything even resembling a normal, healthy, consistent life. No routine, no real accountability. I may as well still be the 16 year old kid I was. I had no real goals, nothing to really look forward to. I was simply existing. So, yeah... Starting from the ground up, really. Trying to avoid that entire way of life. Right now, I am home a lot. Helping to take care of my 2 year old niece. Slowly regaining drive and motivation and..... Optimism. That was something else I never had. It's a slow process, and since my triggers were just about EVERY aspect of my life, I am starting from essentially nothing.
DarkwingPsyduck
Active Member
No, there are studies that show that some people are more susceptible to addiction. Brain chemistry is slightly off. This is usually hereditary, but not exclusively. Some are much more likely to have self control issues than others. There are some common themes among those people, signs that can serve as a warning. Impulse control being a huge one. The inability to wait. The need for the instant gratification, and a seemingly absent sense of accomplishment. Most people feel good about themselves when they accomplish something. Having to work for it makes finally getting it that much better. People more likely to become drug addicts don't always get that.
And it isn't just substances that qualify as addiction. That is just the most relevant to this particular forum. You ever have a friend that went to the gym religiously? To the point that it was actually unhealthy? How about people who are
with money, and can't stop buying dumb they don't need? Or the biggest one here in Reno, gambling. These are all addictions that present in much the same ways as substance abusers. People who have problems with these kinds of things are FAR more likely to develop a substance dependency. And substance dependent people are likely to pick up those issues, too. The common theme really is self control. Some people have it. Some struggle with it. And others can't even comprehend it. Those are the ones who tend to develop addictions, and other unhealthy habitual behaviors. Behaviors that seem foreign and stupid to those on the outside.
DarkwingPsyduck
Active Member
My niece is adorable. Just over 2 years old. Her primary care givers are my uncle and I. My aunt still works quite a lot, a RN in the prison. Hilariously, my uncle has raised her to call him "Sensei". She just calls me "Bobby". She ran into my room all frantic. Saying "Where Sensei Go?" with her arms up doing the "I dunno" shrug. I asked where she had him last, and she said "over there" and pointed at the couch. So I suggested she go look in the couch cushions. Which she proceeded to do. Sometimes I think she is the most brilliant child on Earth. Then there are times like this, where I am just not so sure... My uncle is 6'3", well over 200 pounds. There isn't a couch in existence he could hide on.....
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Thank you again.
Very good information.
Your niece sounds so precious!
Very good information.
Your niece sounds so precious!
DarkwingPsyduck
Active Member
Oh, thank you. I don't mind answering whatever I can, to the best of my ability. As I said, this forum is one of the things that finally pushed me over that edge. My aunt is the blood relative. My dad's aunt. I knew that what I was doing was hurtful, but I really didn't know the many ways in which I was hurting her, and the severity of it all. Ignorance is never an excuse, and a large part of my ignorance was that I NEEDED it. It was so much easier to do when you don't see the depth of the pain. And she was too much of a saint to show it to me. Too supportive, too generous. This forum really did open my eyes. And denied me of that ignorance that I was relent upon to continue justifying my bad decisions. Which is why I recommend that you guys don't just forgive and forget. It sounds like an easier way to go about it, but it isn't. Your children are not monsters. They don't enjoy seeing you suffer. They are just unable to truly comprehend and appreciate the real effects it has on you. I think it is important for them to see the problem from your perspective. That is what this place gave me. So I will continue answering all the questions that I can, as honestly as I can. And, if I were the prayin' type, you'd be in those prayers. I am not the praying type, but you're still in my thoughts.
DarkwingPsyduck
Active Member
And I am no better than any of your children. If anything, I am probably worse. You are their parents. And you are all good parents. Way better than my own. The fact that my aunt and uncle have treated me no differently, and with no less care than you have with your own children shows just how amazing these people are. They have no obligation to me. I was an adult by the time I got to them, anyway. There are very few people, myself included, who would have looked down on them for just letting me go. They had already gone above and beyond everything that every other adult in my life put together went. Still incredibly ashamed of myself.... But I can serve as proof that we do stupid, confusing, and hurtful things to the people who deserve the most consideration and respect. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we enjoy it, or that we can even stand ourselves for doing it. Drug addiction is a . For EVERYBODY in the vicinity of an addict, not JUST the addict. It turns otherwise kind, and caring people into the very worst versions of ourselves. Makes us liars, abusers, manipulators, thieves... All the things nobody should be content with being. And things others should not just accept, or forget. Express all of those feelings. Make it impossible to just ignore. Don't just pretend nothing ever happened, and that everything is just dandy, when it isn't. Don't trust them, not right away. Make them earn it. Deserve it. And try to understand that it doesn't reflect on your parenting. It is a problem that knows no bounds. Crosses every line. Short from holding a gun to their head for the rest of their lives, there's not much you can do in regards to their decisions, apart from trying to get them to see exactly what makes those decisions wrong.
. For EVERYBODY in the vicinity of an addict, not JUST the addict. It turns otherwise kind, and caring people into the very worst versions of ourselves. Makes us liars, abusers, manipulators, thieves... All the things nobody should be content with being. And things others should not just accept, or forget. Express all of those feelings. Make it impossible to just ignore. Don't just pretend nothing ever happened, and that everything is just dandy, when it isn't. Don't trust them, not right away. Make them earn it. Deserve it. And try to understand that it doesn't reflect on your parenting. It is a problem that knows no bounds. Crosses every line. Short from holding a gun to their head for the rest of their lives, there's not much you can do in regards to their decisions, apart from trying to get them to see exactly what makes those decisions wrong.
