Constant Lying!

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by allhaileris, Dec 4, 2009.

  1. allhaileris

    allhaileris Crumbling Family Rock

    We had a meeting with somebody from a non-profit who helps parents get preped for IEPs. When we were going over the issues she asked about multiple personalities!! Ugh. I don't think that's the issue, but it made me think that we defintily need more doctor evaluations. Over the summer she was given the diagnosis of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified. In the past it was ODD.

    One of the issues we're dealing with is the constant lying. I'm not a liar (infact I'm too honest, make people mad about it), husband isn't and so it's not something she was taught. We give her every opportunity to come clean with no punishment and she still can't admit it, even if we show her the proof. It's this automatic reflex. I can't figure out why she's doing it or how to stop it. What causes it? She's so good at lying now that I can't tell if she's telling the truth or not.

    The multiple personality thing came up because we mentioned that she glazes over and gets this possessed look on her face. She's mentioned several times that something inside her made her do it (whatever she did bad). And sure, I could take her to a doctor, but the one psychiatrist I met here was really horrible and completely wrong in his diagnosis of her (gave her a low IQ when I know she jsut didnt' want to take the test, was trying to get me to allow her to have candy when she can't have food dye, never once approached Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), etc). We had her in therapy at age 4 and it didn't help at all, so I'm not eager to go that route again.

    Anybody have any ideas to explore about this?
  2. mstang67chic

    mstang67chic Going Green

    I would try to find a childrens hospital in your area. Others here know more about that and can help with it.

    The Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) though could help with the IEP until you get a better diagnosis. I think....again...others will know more than I do on that.

    It does sound like you need a full workup. Has she ever had a neuropsychologist evaluation? Those are very thorough and when done right can better pin down what's going on or at least lead you in the right direction.

    Hugs. I know the lying well myself and it hoovers.
  3. TPaul

    TPaul Idecor8

    Sorry that things are rough. I understand the lying situation. Know though that I am having that problem not just with our difficult child but with some of the other children too. It is not unusual for a child to act in this manner at some point in their growing up. The statement that it was not her, but a bad person inside her that made her do it, can be a childs way of disassociating a bad action on their part. They try to reason that they did not make the bad choice, that someone else did. It does not mean a multiple personality issue is there.

    No matter how hard we try to teach them otherwise. We have to be diligent to try and show them that the lying is wrong, and that it has actions that are associated with it from a discipline stand point.

    I wonder too, who has diagnosed her?? I don't remember any details about your difficult child, but does the diagnosis of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified seem to fit her actions? I think it is possible that there are other things at work with her too. I am sure there will be others that will agree with a new doctor and work up for her.
  4. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Ok, this is my unique (ahem) take on lying. First, do you think he just lies like he breathes? Does it serve a purpose or does he make things up to look better or just to get attention? Why am I asking, you think...

    As a child I made up stories and it continued into adulthood. I have a serious personality disorder and, as God is my witness, I didn't realize how bad it was to lie. I just lied. My parents didn't lie. I did. Sometimes it was to get out of trouble. Sometimes it was to get attention because my own life was boring as opposed to my made up stories. Some of it was not keeping promises to other people (a form of in: "Do you promise not to tell Mom?" "Sure, I won't tell her." Then I did and didn't realize I was breaching promises/lying with my answer). I learned a cold and hard lesson about lying and now I almost tell the truth TOO MUCH (as in I have told all to the forum members where others may have held back). Maybe my "too much" is part of the borderline "all or nothing" but I much prefer the truth. by the way, dissociation of a lesser degree than DID can and does take place with borderline, although I never heard a little voice inside my head telling me to do anything...

    My diagnoses were what you see below, however, my biggest problem was never diagnosed formally, but I know I have it: "Borderline personality disorder" and you often lie like a biotch when you have a personality disorer. Your child is young and I'm sure you can't know yet why he/she lies completely. However, this is why *I* did. I have needed a lot of therapy to stop doing it. It became just a way of life, which is scary. I'm not sure what you can do about a child who simply is not in touch with how betrayed somebody feels when you lie to him/her. But I do wish you tons and tons of luck and think you should seek out answers with any professional you can find. I wish I'd found out sooner before I started losing people who were close to me and that I loved. Not getting help because of a few bad experiences will not help your child and normal parenting methods are unlikely to help. Rather than a Therapist, I'd see a psychatrist...make sure he or she has a good rep with kids. There are lemons in all fields. You may also want to try a neuropsychologist.

    My experience with Aspie/Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids is that they don't lie much and, when they do, they don't do a very good job of it. My son is on the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) spectrum and he is always shocked when somebody breaks a rule or swears. Not sure he feels the same about lying, but I haven't caught him in TOO many lies and when I do he fesses up fast rather than insisting, like I used to insist, that the lie was the truth. THAT is a much bigger problem.

    I wish there was a diagnosis and special treatment for lying because so many of our difficult child's have that problem, and it means so many different things.

    I don't know if this helped...I was just trying to give you a bit of insight into my own special situation. I do think personality disorders cause lying. I don't know what else does. It's not a good thing to do, for sure. It bites you in the butt!:sick:
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2009
  5. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    I was led to believe that autistic kids (Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids, really) can't lie, so I was shocked when difficult child 3's teacher accused him of lying, quite clearly. Turns out the lie was "I didn't do it" when he clearly had, which is the simplest lie of all.

    Often Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids can't cope with the idea of lying, it 'hurts' too much. But that doesn't always stop them trying. Other Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids are able to lie, but with poor social skills they often aren't good at it. That doesn't mean it's never possible for a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid to become accomplished at lying. Who knows? Maybe she's not that good at lying, maybe you're just worse than average at recognising it. As you see - it is very subjective, so I wouldn't rule out Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) just because you feel she lies a lot.

    Multiple personality disorder - there is an increasing debate about whether this really exists, or is something that was imposed on the individual by a bad therapist who implanted the belief that this is what you have. But even those who agree that this exists will tell you that the "alters" won't tell you what to do and force you to do it against your will, they simply take over and you have periods where you simply are unaware. The person might 'wake up' miles from home dressed as an old woman, for example, with no recall of how they got there. Often one alter can be aware of another in charge but waiting for their chance to step into the limelight, while others are unaware. But you don't generally get mixed control - the "hearing voices" generally isn't multiple personality, from what I recall reading.

    Be very wary of describing your observations of her in emotional terms or in terms that have you imposing your own interpretation. I worry when I read here that a parent has described their child as suddenly having an evil look in their eye, or a child who seems to emanate danger. Such statements can be very misleading - if you look at a baby concentrating hard as it fills its nappy, you could say the same thing about the look of intense red-faced concentration on that baby's face!

    You CAN say that the child's face appears set, there appears to be a sudden major change in emotion in the expression on the child's face which appears to be at odds with events in the room at the time. But you can't really interpret more than that - after all, there could be a valid reason, from the child's point of view, for that change in mood.

    I had a male neighbour (who made me feel uncomfortable at times since he seemed to want to talk about sexual matters with me a bit more than I felt was appropriate) who would accuse me of having a twinkle in my eye when I said something or other. But how can an eye twinkle, really? Eyes do not emit light, they only reflect light under certain conditions. A wide open eye has more surface available for reflection perhaps. A darker-looking eye in the opposite sex is judged to be more attractive, if the eye is darker because the pupil is dilated. This is because at a subconscious level we associate dilated pupils with sexual arousal. But we don't look at the person and say to ourselves, "That man/woman has dilated pupils," no - we say, "Wow! Gorgeous!"
    We respond with gut reactions.

    But when we are describing our children to the doctor, we need to be as analytical as possible.

    I remember an incident at uni when I and my prac partner had to fight for a place in class. My prac partner (unknown to me) had a reputation as a troublemaker, and the professor was trying to exclude him from the class but at the same time this was excluding me and I wanted to do well.
    So I had a quiet but forceful discussion with the professor, matching him logic for logic. As I got angrier, my voice got quieter and more intense. The professor finally backed down and let us stay in the class.
    Afterwards my prac partner said, "You were scary. Your eyes changed colour, they turned green!"
    Now, I know that isn't rally possible.The colour of your iris is fixed, I know my iris has always been this pale hazel colour. But I thought about it - I WAS very angry, but it was controlled anger. Anger constricts the pupils - it's the opposite of sexual arousal, if you think about it. Constricted pupils see depth more accurately, making a leap from the trees or the top of the cliff likely to be more accurate in pinpointing a safe landing. Or making it easier to judge accurtely the placement of the blow when you attack your opponent. Basically, it's like closing down a camera lens tight when you want to take a very fast shutter photo - you can capture speed much more easily with a tight aperture.
    In my case - I have naturally pale eyes. Normal pupil size indoors would give an eye colour of a certain level, but if pupils constrict down suddenly, then it would appear as a change in colour depth, at least.

    Anyone wanting to put an emotional label on my face change at that point (as my prac partner did and perhaps even that professor) could have said, "She was scary, her face changed and became harder," or some such. But in reality - it was my pupils. A purely hormonal rection to fear, anger or other strong negative emotion.

    My odd male neihbour began to really worry me when he began to say things about easy child (who at the time was a very pretty pre-teen) such as, 'Did you see her eyes twinkle when she said that? Oh, what a knowing little girl! She didn't come down in the last shower!"
    He was making assumptions that suited him to make, trying to enlist me in agreeing with him (which would then justify any further assumptions he chose to make based on his first false assumptions) and so on, which (I feared) could eventually lead him to justify his increasingly strange thoughts about either me or my daughter and any possible sexual invitation he was reading, that frankly just was not there. My neighbour was seeing 'messages' from my eyes and my daughter's eyes that just weren't there, I know from things he used to say to me that he had women constantly making passes at him (yeah, right).

    So be wary of what you 'see' in your child's changing facial expressions. Describe what you really see, not what you feel about what you see. Or if you want to describe how you feel - say so. "I felt very afraid when I saw my child's facial expression change."
    That is legitimate.

    To say what is not really there except in your own fears, is to risk your child getting the wrong label and this could waste years of effective management of what is REALLY wrong.

  6. allhaileris

    allhaileris Crumbling Family Rock

    Thanks all. I'm really puzzled about the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) part and the supposed inability to lie. I read somehting over the weekend that went over the white brain matter, and how with pathological liars they have more, and autisic kids have less. Obviously she has autistic traits, but is a great liar. Really really good at it, tears, believability, etc. She also steals, mostly shiny stuff like jewelry and trinkets. I did look up borderline personality disorder, and honestly it seems like if she had something like that, it's not really showing itself yet, nor did "they" have much info on young kids (maybe somebody here has a link to post?).

    We had her IEP meeting yesterday so my brain has been overworked lately.
  7. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids lie, but they normally don't have the imagination to make up things that didn't really happen. And they tend to be very poor liars. I would guess with no scientific proof that few Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) people are chronic liars.
  8. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    It's a bit complicated, this thing with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids and lying.

    It seems to come down to this rule following they have - they lern the rules they observe that work in the workd. So difficult child 3 learned that other kids could hit him and get away with it, but he couldn't hit back or he would get into trouble. Oftgen he would get into trouble anyway and when tis began to happen he began to hit other kids more, since he figured he was going to get into trouble anyway...

    All kids try the "I didn't do it" kind of lie. Some Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids even find these kind of lies to be too difficult, they just feel too 'wrong". In the same way, ambiguity can upset these same kids. If you think about it, telling a lie can be like a crime against reality. difficult child 3 hasn't got a problem with this, difficult child 1 used to try to tell more complex lies along the lines of "The computer game was lent to me by my friend," when he had bought it with stolen money. So he had invented a lie but he hadn't thought about the entire spectrum of consequences (such as me asking his friend's mother if this was true).

    I do think it is theoretically possible for a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid to tell a more complex lie. Especially a girl - Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) presents differently in girls, it can be tricky trying to pin down a diagnosis. Girls tend to be more complex in how their brains work anyway; even with her lies, I wouldn't rule out Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). But I agree with you keeping an open mind re other diagnoses.

    How do you know she is lying? Those who are best at lying, never get found out. Simply being found out in a lie is an indication that the liar is less successful at it. Telling a lie is a complex thing - you not only have to make the lie beleivable at the moment, but you have to be able to sustain the lie as well as craft the lie carefully so even cross-checking won't disclose that it is a lie. That is often too complex for Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) people to do and sustain.

  9. allhaileris

    allhaileris Crumbling Family Rock

    Ha! Sometimes she's good, but sometimes the lie is so obvious it's funny. She SO has not figured out how to not get caught or try to cover it up. An example of getting caught and being really bad at the lie was a couple weeks ago, I went into her room and it smelled like nail polish. I ask her where it's at, I can see her fingernails are black (meaning she was in my cosutme makeup box, which is a no-no). I ask her again and she denies it. I ask her for her hand, touch her finger and show her the nail polish is wet. She started crying completely sincerely swearing she hadn't used it. I showed her the logic, I gave her every opportunity to come clean and she couldn't. So she's horrible at lying when I have the proof, but if I had no proof, she's great at lying because her sincerity. But the lies are never very complex. Definitly like the Family Circus cartoons and the "not me" character.
  10. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    OK, that is standard of lying that is still consistent with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) - she is desperately trying the "I didn't do it" route even in the face of obvious evidence to the contrary.

    Now, think about this from the vantage point of inside her head. Forget your own anger at her, forget that you are her parent (for a few minutes). Now you are in her head as an impartial observer. Try to plug in to her level of emotions.

    She is impulsive - she wanted the black nails for some reason. How can she get this fast, while she wants it?
    OK, Mommy has black nail polish. But it's not mine, it's Mommy's. But nail polish goes a long way, she won't miss any in the bottle and if it doesn't get used it eventually goes yuk in the bottom of the bottle anyway, I may as well have some on my nails.

    The wanting overwhelms the "this is against the rules". So she goes and does it, figuring it will be on and dry, when you eventually notice it she might say she borrowed a friend's nail polish bottle. [and for the mom in you sneaking peeks out - another way to check if it's been freshly applied, is to look for smudges on the skin. I find it takes about a day for them to wear off, even the best-applied nail polish]

    Now she has done something she shouldn't have, because the desire to do it was greater than the desire to not do it. So far, fairly typical.
    But she has done the wrong thing. Her anxiety is climbing. Her biggest anxiety now is, "I have broken the rules". This is a good thing, in that it is something that she is aware of and finds upsetting, even a little bit (obviously not enough to overcome these impulses!).

    Then in comes Mom like an avenging angel. Mom knows everything. well, most everything. Mom knows that something is wrong.
    She is afraid to confess, because her anxiety is now greatly ramped up to such heights that she can;t think properly, can't plan. Her best way out, to help her anxiety stay as low as possible THIS MINUTE, is to lie and say, "I didn't do it." This is the simplest lie in the world, the instinctive lie, the one that just about anybody can tell.
    Depending on the questions asked by the interrogator, the lie can become more complex, often with help. Imagine an interrogator asking, "Did you get this from your friend?" Often in the face of noonsensical impossible denials, we try to find the truth by asking leading questions. It's the worst ting to do with a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid because in doing so, you are letting thme know that there ARE alternative explanations you might be more inclined to beelive, and you are also handing some of these options to the child on a silver platter.

    You did this well by going over the logic of the situation and showing her that her lie did not make sense. NEVER give her any alternative possibilities. She may think of some herself - follow the logic.

    But tihs has come from, beleive it or not, a basic law-abiding nature coupled with exrteme anxiety when she fears she is being found out. Her anxiety is so extreme that telling a lie is the better option than telling the truth - telling the truth here is making her more anxious because for her, being caught in a lie is so very upsetting, so very shameful. Her tears at this point are genuine.

    So what I suggest you begin to do (and it may sound crazy) - comfort her when she admits the truth or when it has reached a point where you obviously know the truth anyway. Continue to comfort until after she has repeated the truth to you. Comforting her in a way that she recognises as comfort, can help reduce the anxiety. You need to build up a conditioned response where she associates telling the truth (even to replace a previously-told lie) as being the best and fastest way to reduce her anxiety.

    At the moment, it's a hump she can't get over. She acts on impulse, breaks the rules, then because she is now feeling anxious about getting caught in a lie or transgression, she continues to lie and make it worse.

    Try to not get angry (not openly). Being disappointed in her should work better, but she also needs to know you love her anyway. But truth is more important.

    Now the next prong in your attack - ask her why she wanted black nails. If this is against her rules, tell her why. Now together, try to find a compromise. Can she wear black nails at home around the house but not to school? Maybe she could put on black nail polish on Friday nights and take it off on Sunday night. Or maybe the rules need to be reconsidered now she is older.
    Of course she needs to keep her hands off your nail polish but allowing her to earn her own bottle of nail polish could be an incentive you could use.

    The most importnt ting is to keep the communicaiton open. You have laid down some very strong groundwork on the rule-following and not telling lies, but her continuing impulse control issues are getting her into constant trouble with this and the anxiety she feels is greater than for TTs. That is why I think you are getting these paradoxical findings.

    we had a horrible time with difficult child! when he was in his early teens - he wanted stuff. He has always wanted stuff. But he was stealing money from my wallet to buy it, then lyingg about it to say his friends had lent the stuff to him or he'd swapped stuff. He couldn't maintain those lies for too long, but it was long enough to cost me hundreds of dollars.

    What turned him around? None of the "you know you shouldn't steal, you know you shouldn't lie..." - he already knew tat and his anxiety was so ramped up he had dug himself into a hole he couldn't get out of.

    What turned him around - I burst into tears. It was genuine. I sobbed, loudly, that my son had become a thief from his own mother and a liar, and that was wounding me so deeply. I also made the point that often the money he took was money I may well have spent on him anyway (for tings like new shoes) but had to change my mind when I found myself with less than I thought I had. Or we had perhaps had to go short of food that he likes and eat more of my "gourmet poverty food" which meant that hewasn't just stealing from me, he was stealnig form the whole family, including himself.

    I was really upset, inconsolable. husband took over while I left the room. I don't think he scolded much, just pointed to my retreating back as "Exhibit A".

    difficult child 1 never stole again. But he would come to me wanting stuff and ask my help in finding ways to earn the money.

    We had balanced his burning desire to own stuff (which took a long time to help him understand, our materialistic society and advertising always makes these things seem not only within your reach, but something you are entitlted to have) with his anxiety levels and his need to tell the truth and not break the rules. What we had to do was find a way to remove the hump of anxiety than can sometimes get in the way of our kids coming back to the right side of the tracks.

    difficult child 1 is really bright, but some concepts just took years longer to sink in. I think there's still a lot of room there for more. Life is a learning experience, life-long. and back then he really couldn't equate the "you ought to be congratulated (for choosing to buy Brand X)" with the reality of, "We don't need to own everything we want or desire, life is about making choices." Also, advertising is about lies. They lie to us. And they're good at it. Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids are not good at it. We understand lies. Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) people try to, but don't get lies on the same level.

    And that is another big thing - we find this with easy child 2/difficult child 2 especially - making choices. My favourite author, Terry Pratchett (in "Wee Free Men" - a book I can highly recommend to your daughter and to you - it's fantasy satire, would appeal to latent Goths who need a moral compass, and their families) refers to this as "tragic sweet deprivation".
    The story is - Tiffany's baby brother Wentworth has been stolen away by the Queen of the Fairies. The Qeen is evil - she gives you everything you want. And this is not always good for you. Tiffany finds her baby brother (who she doesn't really like much because he's so sticky, but her mother loves him and wants him back) sitting on a large flat stone surrouded by sweets. Everything imaginable, brightly coloured, sugar-laden. And he was sobbing, crying the way babies cry when they are really, really upset (some good description we would all really get!). Story continues:
    "Tiffany knew what the problem was immediately. She'd seen it before, at birthday parties. Her brother was suffering from tragic sweet deprivation. Yes, hewas surrounded by sweets, but the moment he took any sweet at all, said his sugar-addled brain, that meant he was not taking all the rest. And there were so many sweets he'd never be able to eat them all. It was too much to cope with The only solution was to burst into tears.
    The only solution at home was to put a bucket over his head until he calmed down, and take almost all the sweets away. He could deal with a few handfuls at a time."

    With easy child 2/difficult child 2, this problem with choices is very similar - it could be two unpleasant choices, or two enjoyable ones. You would expect anxiety with two unpleasant choices. But with the choice between chocolate chip ice cream and strawberry ice cream? She can only have one, whichever she chooses she kows she will enjoy. But to choose one is to say no to the other, and this she cannot do. The anxiety ramps up and up until often someone else has Occupational Therapist (OT) make the choice for her. Of course, this absolves her form personal responsibility for the choice, so if the ice cream tastes horrible, for example, she can blame the other person. As you can see, it's not healthy for her to allow other people to make her choices because she is allowing her anxiety to rule her life.

    Remember, easy child 2/difficult child 2 does not have an Asperger's diagnosis. I think she should have, but it would only be mild. But the traits she does have (diagnosed) can be quite crippling sometimes. And the trouble with lies and anxiety as a combination when they're allowed to fester - they can become a lifelong habit of self-denial, of not admitting to yourself what the real problem is, because then you would have to face insurmountable anxiety. So you learn to accept the reality that causes less anxiety.

    Not good. Must be nipped in the bud.

    difficult child 1 is now the extreme law-abiding honest citizen. His church loves him. From what I know of him and church attendees in general, I don't think they fully realise just what they have - a person who really does follow all commandments strictly (including not jaywalking, not taking a serviette with his meal from the fast food place if he already has a serviette in his pocket and who is also scrupulously honest. To a fault. And expects the same standards from those around him.

    If someone had told me this about him ten years ago, I never would have believed it possible.

  11. allhaileris

    allhaileris Crumbling Family Rock

    I totally agree that anxiety is part of the issue. I've actually been working on myself to make sure I am calm and I don't give her outs (as you explained below, not giving any suggested hints on excuses). It's good to hear I'm on the right path. I just need husband to get on it, I know 95% of her anxiety is fed by him, but it's harder because he's the SAH parent and I'm at work.

    We are trying L-theanine and this is supposed to help the anxiety. I want to give it to her over Winter break continually and see how it goes. So far we only did last weekend and there were no outbursts. I'm considering making husband take it too!!

    Marg - you gave me a lot to think about. THanks!
  12. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    Get husband to read it too, ask him what he thinks and if he has anything to add or even contradict. If he's the SAH carer, he may find there are things we've missed, or things he can clarify.

    We had a Communnication Book for difficult child 3 at school. It lived in his school bag, I would write in it anything of relevance to the teacher, they would write back anything of even vague importance. It removed the need for daily debriefs on the classroom steps. It gave us both time away from the problems and ensured ongoing good communication.
    What I found it gave us - insight. We had problems developing (often) and when either we or the teachers read back in the book, we sometimes saw a connection developing that otherwise we might have missed. For example, I realised there was a strong connection between deteriorating behaviour and difficult child 3 coming down with acold or some other bug. While he was really ill his behaviour would be perfect. But the few days before symptoms appeared, he would be horrible. I remember one Friday, it had been a bad week and he had incurred a number of behaviour black marks. He set off for school Friday morning determined to do better (as he had every day) but this time the teacher reported he had been as good as gold. He had a challenging day and seemed to cope well. They had a break in routine (which used to upset him, usually) and he took it in his stride.
    He came in the door fairly quietly, came to me abd sat beside me while I was watching TV. Then his head rested on my arm and I felt his skin - he was burning up! He had a fever of 39.7 C (103.4 F). Looking back through the notes in the book plus a later talk to the teacher, we think the fever developed at about midday. He must have had a pounding headache but he never said anything or gave anyone the idea that there was anything wrong - to him, he didn't notice anything more than usual because his anxiety was usually ramped so high and while feverish, his body had too much to think about for the anxiety to get a look-in. so it balanced out for him. And the changes in his body as the illness developed, had stopped changing. The fever was in, there was no more change. It was there.

    So sharing info and ideas can sometimes help give a perspective shift that can make our lives easier.

    I'm a long way away, I could be way short of the mark. But I've lived with this in various forms three times over, so I may have some ideas which could help. By sharing and comparing (as we do on this site) we have a better chance of pinpointing some likely avenues to investigate.

  13. Marg's Man

    Marg's Man Member

    Marg said
    I remember this well - I was just as shattered as Marg.

    I didn't scold him in the normal sense much at all.

    What I DID do was give him a speech about trust and how OUR trust was one of the most important things he could have. He quickly realised I was right. But he had destroyed our trust in him and now he had to earn it back and there was only one way he could do so.

    He had to prove, to our satisfaction that he could be trusted. For a long time he was not trusted, then we gave him small proofs of our trust that showed as time passed he was regaining our trust.

    It took about six months in all but, as Marg said, it was a lesson well learned. Losing our trust, and knowing it was due to his own actions, was the most devastating punishment we could have devised.

    Marg's Man
  14. allhaileris

    allhaileris Crumbling Family Rock

    The lady we spoke with to help us prep for the IEP suggested a journal. So Marg - you're the second person in a week to suggest it. It will hopefully help figure out some more triggers. And yeah, my daughter is the same way before she gets sick.

    This morning she asked for her "medicine" (the L-theanine). I asked her how it made her fell and she said "happy". WOW! I went ahead and gave her one, I hope she does okay at school today.