Enough pain, lies and hurt - the boy needs to go.

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by Momnotlivingthedream, Dec 30, 2014.

  1. Momnotlivingthedream

    Momnotlivingthedream Had it up to here and i'm not coming down.

    Hi. I am very upset right now and just want to say that I am grateful to have found this site because for the first time I don't feel like I am the only one experiencing this torture. I have been dealing with my 23 year old son's destructive, disrespectful, dishonest behaviors for about 7 years now and the only support resources I've ever found have never been relevant to me because they were all drug use/prison focused (the primary issue is not the person's deviant? personality and the person is actually a nice person with an addiction problem or lacks intelligence/opportunity). As many others, my son could have had it all.. he's brilliant, handsome and charming. Its been a long, destructive path from prestigious college to being a two time felon and losing the respect and friendship of all who ever loved him. He holds onto a lie about anything even when the evidence is right in front of us. He blames everyone and everything but himself for everything. He recounts a childhood full of abuse that never happened. He is lazy, immature, enamored by the drug life, is a chameleon, a thief, a liar, acts entitled and can be the meanest, cunning manipulator - I call him a peacock, as he walks around with a narcissistic over-inflated ego like he is invincible.

    I've always tried and never have given up but this is now making me sick and hurting my family too much. I've lost hope for now (always thought it was the drugs but now see its him) so will be letting go. I called his PO tonight to say he can not live here anymore. I'm scared but know I am enabling and he will never change if he doesn't feel the pain of consequence. I have to go to bed now because I have been crying so hard I cant open my eyes anymore but I just wanted to say hi and share a little bit to become part of the community. I wish there were live meetings but I will learn to type my thoughts and Im really glad to have found you all.
  2. Graceunderpressure

    Graceunderpressure New Member

    Is he bipolar? His actions sound a lot like my 16 year old daughter, the arrogance and invincibility. She comes down from it but when she's manic this is her, she's super destructive and deviant.
  3. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    So the worst of it started about age 16? I'd be asking a similar question as grace... has he ever been evaluated for mental health issues? It could be a range of different problems. There is a chance it's "just" the drugs, but... in my experience, often they get into drugs because of other problems - from depression and anxiety, to bi-polar, to whatever else for MH dxes.
  4. Momnotlivingthedream

    Momnotlivingthedream Had it up to here and i'm not coming down.

    We had him evaluated when he went to a Wilderness Program and they said no. Maybe I should re-investigate this; thank you. I would be relieved if he was bi-polar, it would give me some hope that he could improve with therapy and medication. The thing is that he never gets depressed even when he should be and always acts like a manic but its worth a try to investigate. Thanks for the suggestion.
  5. recoveringenabler

    recoveringenabler Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Welcome MNLTD, glad you found us, but really so sorry you had to.

    Which ever way you decide to go with your son, you might benefit from reading the article on detachment at the bottom of my post. If your son is bi-polar or has a conduct disorder, boundaries for you will need to be put in place. Abusing you is not healthy for you or for him. If your son does in fact have a disorder, you might contact NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. They have excellent courses for us parents and resources for us and for our kids. They are a very good source of information and help.

    Getting support in some fashion for you is a good idea. This stuff is grueling, exhausting and depletes us of our life force. Private therapy is often the choice many of us make, so we can have a safe place to vent, get guidance and compassion, empathy, understanding and help in making a plan of action. You might try Al Anon, many parents find great solace in the 12 step programs. Once you get that in place, you will find that dealing with your son's issues will get a tad easier and you can make the appropriate choices for yourself and the rest of your family.

    The bottom line is that your son may or may not change. We have no control over that. Once you've done all you can do for him, which you may have reached already, the realization dawns on us that there is nothing further we can do, that any real change has to come from your son, he has to want to change, there isn't anything you can do to make that happen. If he is bi-polar and agrees to go on medication, that would be great. Just know that not all people with bipolar agree to medication. If he doesn't then you will need to make choices to protect yourself. Boundaries around their negative behavior is the key. Learning how to do that become our job. One of those boundaries for many of us is to physically separate ourselves from our adult kids, we need to detach from their behavior, their choices, their lifestyle and their treatment of us.

    When you do make any changes, he will likely respond in a negative way. If you have been taking care of him and you stop, on any level, the result is often a barrage of negativity, blame, guilt and manipulation coming our way. Be prepared for that if you change the way you've been dealing with him.

    I'm sorry you find yourself here. Keep posting it is helpful. Get support for yourself, that is key. With support you can make the changes necessary. It's a tough road, it goes against our own way of parenting and thinking, it takes time, it's a process.........I'm glad you're here.........
  6. Momnotlivingthedream

    Momnotlivingthedream Had it up to here and i'm not coming down.

    Thank you very much for your helpful response and welcome. It is helpful to know I am not alone because I feel that way a lot. I will read the article now.
  7. Graceunderpressure

    Graceunderpressure New Member

    My daughter is bipolar 1 and depression is not as prevalent but can come as they get older. Her depression comes out as irritation, intolerance, rage and she also has used drugs and is currently a felon (chased me with a blow torch) at age 16 in detention. She is waiting for a residential treatment. Lithium has stabilized/calmed her a lot but she still has a ways to go. Many bipolar 1 people are attracted to drugs, sex and alcohol and have a co-morbidity to substance abuse. Check out this test:
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  8. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I see he has borderline traits. He sounds to me like he has a personality disorder, like most of the adult children sound like on this forum. They are exceptionally difficult to deal with, have little to no remorse, are nicest when they want something and if you say "no" are just as likely to not contact you until they want the next thing from you. You are likely to hear ad-nauseum what a horrible mother you are for reasons that may be true or may be made up and it's mostly done when you don't hand over the free money. They have little regard for rules or the law.

    His real diagnosis doesn't matter at his age unless he really wants to get help. Then he'd be given tests for diagnosis. But adults with personality disorders mostly don't want help because they LIKE how they are and don't see anything wrong with their behavior. It's everyone else. They can get so angry, so over-the-top mad, that something they assault you. Usually they have a series of failed or bad relationships and can't really stay "nice" for very long.

    I'm sorry you are sad and crying. Let me say that you did not give up. In fact, you don't have the power over this man to either give up or not give up. The only one who can give up on him is him and it doesn't sound like he is much motivated into trying very hard, like he's fine with how he is. I'm sure, like most of us, you have done it all to get him help when he was a minor and nothing worked. That was him deciding not to change because, after all, he had you doing his bidding (as we all did at first).

    If he truly has a personality disorder, he will probably remain difficult and inflexible and always right and self-righteous and smug and even disinterested in following societal norms or the law. They don't apply to personality disordered people. That's why they often end up in trouble. Sadly, they rarely believe they have a problem and refuse to get help. In fact, they may go ballistic if you suggest it and then go on a tirade about how it's really YOU that is the problem...then the abuse starts.

    Nobody should have to live with somebody who has a personality disorder and these clever, usually bright young men and women are great at charming and fooling psychiatrists. I have read that for most therapy is good. For somebody who is, say, antisocial or narcissistic (I don't know if he is either) therapy just teaches these adults how to further scam other people. There is good help for borderline now. It is new therapy and requires extremely hard work and a total commitment, which most borederlines won't undertake. However those who get into the mindset of change tend to change a lot, but they need to continue mental health care to remember their new ways of coping. So far there is nothing for narcissists and antisocials.

    Whatever is wrong with your son, he is a man now and it is HIS responsibly to treat his mental health problems. You can't. And most of our kids think they are fine, so they won't go for help after age eighteen.

    You are not alone in your grief or your actions. There are abusive adult children and if they are abusive, in my opinion, they should not live in your house. Drugs definitely don't help the personality disordered, but they commonly do abuse drugs.

    Hugs and hoping you feel better soon. You can't change yourself, but many of us on this forum and in the process of changing ourselves, our priorities, and our reactions to all abusive people, including adult children. All of us have the ability to have rich, full, happy lives even if our adult child(ren) are a mess. They are not us and we are not them. It just takes a different way of thinking and often lots of therapy.j

    I'm going to post links to certain personality disorders and you can take a look:




    These can co-exist with other mental health disorders. Their brains are actually wired differently, or at least they have done tests on antisocials that show they are.
  9. Annie2007

    Annie2007 Member

    So sorry you are going through this. My 33 year old son is bipolar with psychotic tendencies. He will not take the medications as he prefers to self medicate. I have tried everything. He is homeless 3000 miles away now. He cannot live with us. Too scary. He is verbally and physically abusive. I have dealt with all this since he was 14. I am trying to learn to detach. It is very hard as he is my only child. But please stick with this forum. It really helps and you are not alone! God Bless!
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  10. Hope_Floats

    Hope_Floats Member

    This reminds me of the day that I had signed up then 12/13 year old DS1, who was also a burgeoning difficult child in the making but somehow grew out of it, for an anger management class, but didn't tell him where we were going until we were in the car on the way there. Okay, big mistake there, but I was concerned that he wouldn't get in the car if he knew up front. Anyway, when he found out where we were going, he started kicking and screaming and beating on the windows. Here is what he was screaming: I DON'T NEED ANGER MANAGEMENT CLASS!! YOU all just need to QUIT MAKING ME MAD!!

    Those were the days before cell phones, or I would have made a video of it. We all laugh about it now, but it certainly wasn't funny then.
  11. 2much2recover

    2much2recover Well-Known Member

    I think you are on to the fact that he may very well have Narcissistic Personality disorder or maybe, if not a full blown Narcissist, maybe a mental disorder with narcissistic tendencies. In the end, with him at the age he is, and with you having dealt with it for so long it doesn't matter. I refer to it as: if it walks like a duck, and quacks like one it is likely one. Meaning, because of is age, it really doesn't matter if you actually get a formal diagnosis, you know that his behavior is like a narcissist and that behavior is not acceptable to you.

    I have been in your shoes where I couldn't take the meanness anymore either. It is perfectly OK to go low contact = LC (something I learned here, meaning you will talk or meet with him when he is being respectful) or No Contact = NC if you feel he is not able to change enough for you to feel safe when dealing with him. I have had periods of both and am currently in NC because I am sick and disabled and I am not up for the mind games that my difficult child daughter plays. It is exhausting to deal with someone who always has an agenda, wrapped in manipulation and control, I am sick and when I would answer the phone, she would ask me how I felt and when I would say "bad night" she would say that's too bad and then go on and on, me, me, me, blah, blah, blah - and I could see where she was leading me so I was constantly playing the game of "I don't now where you are taking me" and well with being sick, dealing with this every single day, gets exhausting.
    I can see why you need a break. If you need a long break just go NC for a while and then when you are ready maybe move back to LC. There is nothing wrong with you as a parent from needing a break from a mentally ill or personality disordered person. It is only natural that a person can only take so much stress before they need a breather.
    Another thing to consider, which I never did until recently was the DNA factor. Maybe you did nothing wrong in raising him but in his DNA there are mental disorders or personality traits that make him this way. Look around the family tree and see if his behavior reminds you of anyone in the family. When I was asked that question, I immediately knew that my daughter acted exactly as my maternal grandmother did. Also there are other of my family members with personality disorder traits so well, yeah, this can be inherited and you just may be fighting a losing battle when fighting the DNA.
    Ironically, I am the only one who has been in therapy and go in some stages of my life and not in others. The results, all the crazy ones call me crazy because I go. Yeah, I go to stay mentally healthy, but they have no problems, rich I say, real rich. LOL
  12. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I just reread this thread and it occurred to me everyone, including me, is diagnosing your son. We can have our ideas due to our experiences and what we know, but none of us can diagnose. At your son's age, his diagnosis doesn't even really matter. If he, as a man, is incapable or unwilling to stop abusing you, doing criminal acts or breaking societal and house rules, you have no choice but to sit and decide what you can handle, how you want things to change, how far you are willing to go to change things, and setting boundaries for anyone you are in a relationship with is very important. Take care of YOU. You spend the better part of the past raising your son and perhaps other children. There comes a time when they have learned all we taught them and they can choose to listen to our lessons or disregard them and legally we have no control over how they choose to live.

    But we can control what we are willing to put up with.

    Only you can make that decision. Some of us have made our grown children leave, even if we knew they'd have to fend for themselves in homeless shelters or on the streets. Nobody does this lightly. It has to get really bad for it to come to this. Some put up with the abuse and try to encourage their adult kids to get help. That often doesn't work well, but it is something some parents do. It is always a good thing, in my opinion, to try to detach emotionally. That does not mean to stop the love. It just means to detach.

    There is a wonderful detachment thread on the top of this page.

    You can also join Al-Anon for support and good common sense help or get your own therapist to help you cope. The focus, for the majority of us here, is now on us. We are trying to live happy lives with peace and are sharing ways that we do that, in spite of having grown children who struggle.

    I'm sorry this thread is so harsh, including my own thread. If your son wants a diagnosis, he can seek out a psychiatrist. There is nothing you can do about that either. Hugs!!!!
  13. Momnotlivingthedream

    Momnotlivingthedream Had it up to here and i'm not coming down.

    Thanks. Harsh is OK. It is what it is and reality is necessary at this point. We had another incident last night. His ex girlfriend called saying he was harassing her, threatening suicide all last night. I'm taking him in for psychiatric evaluation and he agreed to it. Found out we can't put him in a shelter if he's on parole. Needs a solo apt. Ugh.
  14. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Serious? Here... the shelter would be half empty if they had that rule.
    Does the PO have any suggestions for alternatives that don't involve you doing the funding?
  15. Tanya M

    Tanya M Living with an attitude of gratitude Staff Member

    Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry you are going through the chaos and drama that your difficult child is creating. I'm glad you found this forum. You will find so much good advice on these pages.

    My difficult child was just awful to deal with, lying, stealing, verbal abuse, ransacking my home, destruction of my home (holes in walls, doors, took a butcher knife to my kitchen counters), in and out of jail many times, etc.... He has blamed me and husband for how screwed up his life is. He never takes responsibility for any of his actions, it's always someone else's fault.

    I was told once that my difficult child was probably bi-polar but after several diagnosis from different doctors and therapists they all came up with the same thing, Oppositional Defiant Disorder. I remember at the time thinking "ok, great now we know what it is and we can fix it" Oh how naïve I was to think that. My husband and I did everything, above and beyond what we should have and in the end my difficult child will be 34 in a few weeks and is homeless.

    From the title of your post it's obvious you have had enough. That's the beginning of detaching but it's not an easy process. When I had finally had enough and started to detach I experienced so much guilt. I really wish I would have had this forum at the time as I now know most of the guilt I felt was a result of my difficult child manipulating me. Be careful to not fall into the "guilt trap".

    It is good that you recognize these traits for what they are as it will help you to stay strong. Remember to take care of yourself, it's easy to allow the chaos to consume us.

    Sending you ((HUGS))

  16. Momnotlivingthedream

    Momnotlivingthedream Had it up to here and i'm not coming down.

    Thanks. I think bipolar is a longshot. The reason he can't be in a shelter on parole here is because he came from nY. He got in trouble in college and was transferred here for parole.
  17. recoveringenabler

    recoveringenabler Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Check for transitional housing for parolees, the PO may know more.

    Check online for what your state offers. Each state is different.

    Hang in there. This is not easy stuff.
  18. 2much2recover

    2much2recover Well-Known Member

    Oh yes I agree, I cried and cried and cried when I could no longer deny that my difficult child daughter is what she is. It is emotionally painful for the parents to have to accept that their child is this way and we go to great lengths to deny, deny, deny. My heart breaks for you for I remember that dark time in my life of acceptance.
  19. Momnotlivingthedream

    Momnotlivingthedream Had it up to here and i'm not coming down.

    Thanks. Very dark. A grief and horror that I keep in all to myself.
  20. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    And if you haven't already, you will go through a grieving process, much like the steps one goes through when somebody passes on. It is like the person you love so much, your child whom you had so much hope for, has disappeared and an imposter is in his place. It is losing the child of our dreams. It is hard.