Family of Origin (FOO) Support Thread Part 2

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I have to go to the dentist. I have read some but not all of the posts.

I want to say this about the current Psychiatrist that I talk to every 2 weeks. He knew this other man. He is from the same perspective of thought and practice.

After all, with so many years invested, so am I. But not like them.

So in the beginning of talking with this guy, not the first 2 times, but maybe the 3rd or 4th....He said: This is going to take a long time.

It must have been after I said something about my mother where it was clear that I had utterly abandoned myself.

It was exactly the same tone as some people took with me when I started on this board. Because I was adamant that I could not ever choose for myself, when my child was at stake. Some people called me words. That I was this or that. I am sure they thought I was irretrievable so.

Or at the very least, it would take a long, long time.

And that was the flavor of the other therapist. The man who betrayed.

You have serious problems.

The lack of faith. The lack of trust. There is an abandonment in that. In the willingness to see somebody as that lost.

How can anybody know? Who is anybody to make that kind of judgment, really?

I know with my son that my panic and desperation is largely due to a failure of faith, to abandonment of myself...and that my inability to hold the faith with him...is due to my inability to do so in myself.

But there are many people who do not see that built in to them is something they call reality, they call ability to face the truth, they call a strength...and I am not sure it is.

That psychiatrist I talk to is sure that my son is deficited, is irretrievably broken. And cannot be fixed. Has "serious problems." And he has never met him.

We are back to the same thing, really. How do we negotiate these things?

Kill the messenger?
Kill off ourselves? Our children in our minds' eye?

All of this metaphorically speaking, I do not want to be suspected of infanticide or whatever you would call it with a D C.

I have to go to the dentist.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Cop a, this second man therapist is another bad fit for u as he would be for me. I suspect he's an old time thinker with Freud still on his brain. He thinks analyzing ad nauseam while you listen to his guesstimate and non scientific interpretations will help you after of course you ha e paid him for years. I say he's full of it and his therapeutic method is outdated and in my opinion useless. Is he older?

I will give you food for thought that in no way means you have to think that my idea is the one for you. But ill offer an alternative to him and his style.

You can try something new that actual research dictates is very effective. You can stop talking to Mr. Gloom and doom entirely. He isn't teaching you new ways of thinking; of coping. He's letting you vent then giving you his opinion, which could be wrong. Tell him good bye.
Find a female therapist who does cognitive behavior therapy and you will learn about things that keep people stuck, such as thinking errors and new ways of seeing the world and your own problems. You will be taught how to cope and spared the therapists lame opinion. You will get a different type of help. In my case I got much better quite quickly.

Droning on and on for years to get to the root cause may never lead to the root cause and may gain us some insight but it doesn't teach us how to handle that insight.

Be good to you and try a new approach. And good luck with the dentist. I don't like them...ugh.
 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I saw a pattern of him choosing for himself. Over me. I saw that to feel powerful, to feel intact, to feel together, he would essentially abandon me, as he needed. Choosing, instead, that I be the weaker one, the broken one, etc. Doing his best to put his pathology into me.

This is why he should pay your money back to you. From the moment in time when your time together was devoted to exploring the parameters of his pathology. You knew it, Copa. You knew it was dirty and wrong what he was doing. It wasn't that you were too weak to leave. It was that if you left, how would you ever have known whether he was right, and not delving into his own pathology on your time after all?

That is the trap we find ourselves in. That is the deal with the devil we make when entering therapy. It is a time for us to suspend judgment. A time to allow another to interpret our deepest selves, our most tender and unhealed parts that we so desperately wish to understand and cannot.

How could you leave.

And he knew that, Copa.

At least my therapist was just a doctor of physical things. Truly, he could not have committed the crime of intention that a bona fide, trained and certified and working at providing therapy and only providing therapy, every day and all day person would be doing in hurting his patient as you were hurt, Copa.

For heaven's sake! He had to know what he was doing Copa and he did it to you anyway because he knew you could not leave without creating a different, weaker kind of self concept than the one you came to him with.

He was a weak and evil man, Copa.

And he knew these things about himself. He had to.

And he took your money anyway.

roar

What stung the most was defending himself, when I stood up for myself, by: "You've got serious problems."

Diamond Cedar strikes so fast the tears sprinkle like diamond rain all over the bed.

Quick as that, she is gone.

He actually said that, huh. How helpless you must have felt, Copa. How he threw you into the thick of it, and how you must have struggled ~ whew.

We don't care.

We are stronger enough. We always were. Copa. You always were stronger enough to survive him. You only required right witness.

Know what we are doing now, Serenity and you and M and M's mother and I? Well, since I am still out...er, seeing to the therapist in the realm of the Magical Child (Cedar says, smoothing what's left of her hair, every beautiful strand, into place as a defense mechanism ~ an adult one, a perfectly normal adult one, rather than describing her visit to the therapist, as she did the first time she wrote this) M's mother has gathered the diamond tears and holds them up to the light.

Everyone thinks they are very nice.

Like in Lil and Jabber's Frenchman and English King Monty Python clip: "Oh yes, it's very nice."

Oh look. Here I come. Everyone moves over and we all whisper about the therapist and what happened, there in the realm of the Magical Child. M's mother holds the handful of diamond tears.

She is very angry for your sake.

They trust the therapist to find the balance between truth and damaging them. The patient risks being damaged by the therapist telling too much, or telling wrong things, or bad timing, or worst case, by telling false truths, in order to serve themselves.

So, now I am understanding. It is both things. The fear of standing up to the therapist is that they will retaliate in both kinds of ways: For meanness, or vengeance, or weakness: tell you the horrible things you fear are true about yourself.

And also the latter, misuse the power they hold, the trust you have given them, in order to heal...in a way that will hurt you.

And both things happened to us, Cedar.

Yes.

But then, we still have our marrow. And there is a certain therapist out there who doesn't. Little, diamond tears, tiny ones, in the creases of his clothing, and nothing more; nothing more, at all.

:O)

But had we been who we are now, or are becoming...we could have tolerated both things.

Here is the thing, Copa. Predators do move in on the vulnerable. They do. You know this. Copa, had we been who we are now we would not have seen these therapists; we would have believed ourselves because Copa we knew when we met them, like we always know. But we believe the words, the paperwork, the everything the negative mother within tells us when she whispers we are less than and she is more and so is everyone else. And oh, Copa. We pray a Child's prayer that it is true that they can help us; that it could be true that we won't have to be alone with it, with what we know, anymore.

We have learned to disregard what we know, Copa. We name it Magical Child stuff and walk through the real world on our feet like everyone, like normal people do and we believe them when they say what they say though we know better. "But," we think. "Why would they tell us they can help if they cannot? We must be wrong, in our abnormality. So I will trust the therapist. I will require this of myself that I might heal."

We go there expecting to be shamed, Copa, because that is our internal reality. Vengeance. Shame. Terror. Love, moving like a deep river, like a bottomless river, through it all.

Literally, Copa? These therapists knew a pale shadow and believe it to be that river we navigate as a matter of course.

Stop believing him, Copa.

Stop believing him, and stop believing in him.

He was a criminal; he was never an ethical person at all, Copa. You never had to believe anything he said. You took it on faith. And he knew that, and he took your money anyway.

There just is no telling, Copa, what else he took from you.

It is yours, Copa.

Take it back.

Sometimes I think about very elderly couples, of women especially. Who know their mates or they will die. I mean, soon. Some of these relationships are like yours, nearly life long unions.

Are they afraid every day? Do they say goodbye when they can? Does the stronger mate prepare things so that weaker or more dependent one, is left surrounded by the safety net and protective mechanisms, enacted by the stronger mate? Is it wrong to speak of a stronger one in a relationship, and to assume it is me? Is this one more vestige of my brokenness as a child?

No Copa. I am not afraid. I am filled with gratitude that somehow, I was given D H. I say goodbye with gratitude each time his eyes touch mine. (Unless he is being a jerk that day.)

:O)

I do, Copa. And the wonder of it? Is that so does D H. And yes, D H will protect me if he is the one to go first. He will protect me not only financially, but with the way I think, Copa. I have posted before about D H comments regarding my FOO and even, our children. It is right that this should be so, Copa. Well mothered men respond to the Hero motif, to the Hero archetype, with their whole hearts.

I love that part of D H. I love the way he honors the mother in his heart, whatever his mother in the world is doing and how he does not flinch from what is or try to cover or excuse or understand it. That is internal locus of control. That is what those of us with internal, rather than external, locus of control are able to do: See with clarity what is.

And claim the Hero within by right.

That is where we are going, you and me and Sserenity. (Alright. So here is a funny thing. Since I have been in Snake Cedar mode? I keep typing Sserenity with two esses. For heaven's sake.)

Anyway.

That is where we are going. Internal locus of control. And for me, that means I need to go back to the realm of the Magical Child, because that is where I created defenses and believed in them even though they didn't work and punished myself for thinking like that in secret about my abuser and that is the shame of the thing, Copa. That is the thing that sickens and weakens and shames us. Because that is not normal thinking and we know it.

That is what that therapist knew Copa, and you did not.

Now you do.

The Magical Child protected us then to the degree she was able.

A Hero, Copa and Serenity.

We have been ashamed of our own courage, of our own Hero, and afraid to claim her as our own.

Claim her, now.

And in that hellish arena where everything and...nothing
occurred
Where mirrored music was broken and mirrored vision
obscured


A Wizard and a befuddled magician
conferred


In Confucianesque discussion
of just what it most certainly might have been
That each may or may not have believed
himself or the other to have heard

So did the game end
that neither player would play
The magician storm off ~
the innocent...

Wielding that promise
spoke on a razor's nicked and crazied edge
the bloodied innocent waken
Choose, her Name ~ by the Wind
by the wolves, and by the Fire
in her eyes

Claim
the witch and the Child
godforsaken
Hold them, safe
that which, glass eyed, call the Time
that which...lies

Claim their truths as her own
there, in that hellish dawning....

Taught that which, required to kneel require
vengeance
Learn vengeance require it become
that which...lies

Step forward ~
pain, blue on blue, in those eyes

Choose, and walk that path less traveled
where briars and black-thorned brambles
writhe and moan, against the noon
Where howling ricochets roar and rock
the Child

Where witches howl for vengeance
bald, and glass eyed 'neath the moon....

So did the game end that neither player
would play
The magician storm off ~
the innocent...slip away

And in that dark and that thundered awakening
where the black and the white ricochet
Where witches fly and the Wind taste of vengeance
where cripples and beggared innocents pray

Crimsoned ribbands reflect....


Innocence ~ bloodied innocence, hold the Wind
hold, the witch; hold the hunter
at bay


***

The white Child be flown
ere the magician's return


Call
her Name


Call...
the Time


Call the sweet, bloodied burn
of the phoenix


(Perhaps, Grandmother...
the phoenix cries, as it burns.)


White
against the carmine pits of Hell

White
against the bloodied ashes of its birth

In baptismal Fire and in Water, reborn
a white and a six petaled promise reflect
Moon shadowed
in pools catacombing the Earth


Cedar

So, here is the thing, Copa and Serenity. Had these therapists of ours never pretended to represent for us the safe harbor we believed them to (and for which they took our freaking money), it is possible that we never would have required ourselves to find and face and claim ourselves ~ our true selves, strange, Magical Child thinking and all.

So.

We are fine.

They can be safely discounted.

On we go.

Copa, the poetry is given so you can see it, so you can see what it felt like through my imagery. Pay special attention Copa, to the promise, to the moon-shadowed promise, spreading through the pools catacombing the Earth.

That is the awakening Self.

The phoenix, self immolating and awakening by her own choice.

Okay. Out of Magical Child realm and back to Normal Realm. That is the difference here, Copa. We can travel between them. We know where we are, when we are in the realm of the Magical Child.

We are sane.

That was always the secret fear I had to write into poetry and you had to rationalize into words. It was our way of making sense of what, in the realm of the Magical Child we created to survive what was happening to us, seemed so real.

We had to believe it then, Copa.

We saved our own child selves, there and...we lived. Now, we need to claim the courage in us, and never be ashamed that we lived, again. We did what was required, like we always do. Good, good work.

:starplucker:


Copa, one more thing. The money discrepancy with M. That doesn't matter. There is and always has been, a money discrepancy between D H and I. You know this to be true, Copa: Once there is enough money for what is required to create a life, money ceases to mean status. It becomes the tool it is. What passes between one mate and the other is something sacred, something we don't understand. Everything that happens in that relationship is what needed to happen for the correct questions to be uncovered and addressed and resolved. We posted about trust, once. That is where the trust is developed, I think. In that place where both therapists did what they did, M and my D H have not done that. Though, knowing our deep and unhealed vulnerabilities, they might have.

An ethical man.

That is the description of an ethical man.

The duration of the relationship doesn't matter, I don't think. Once the healing possible has been accomplished, perhaps that is when relationships end.

I don't know.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Copa...
This is just my opinion. Based on my own experiences, and what I was told from one GOOD therapist years back.

Anyone who tells you that it will take years of therapy to resolve much of anything, isn't worth the paper their credentials are printed on. Complex cases may take years - but not to see significant benefit. Because even complex cases can be broken into manageable bites, and things worked on and a certain moving forward.

This one good therapist said... if you don't see measurable results in three months, move on. If you don't see significant measurable results in a year, you're on the wrong track. And therapy doesn't need to be back-to-back year-after-year to be effective. Often, less is more - go for a year, work on a specific list of challenges. Get some new tools and learn how to use them. And then go off and live your life for a year or two. Then if you want to, come back for more.

And I totally agree with having a same-gender therapist.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I know with my son that my panic and desperation is largely due to a failure of faith, to abandonment of myself...and that my inability to hold the faith with him...is due to my inability to do so in myself.

Nope. It's because your child is in danger, real danger, irrefutable, factual, this is getting worse every day it is not addressed danger.

What faith is there to hold with that, Copa?

An addicted or emotionally ill child is one set of circumstances.

A child with a serious illness he refuses to address ~ that is something very different. Then add the risks to a seriously ill manchild of substances that alter the brain; that affect the capacity for integrity or empathy or pleasure.

Regarding the labels sometimes affixed, here. Copa, find it in your heart to forgive. Each of us is doing the best she knows or can learn. If another parent has not been where you are, bless her for her generosity in sharing with you those things that help her. She is sharing from a full heart. Pray Copa, that she never has to know what you know.

There is such strength for us here, Copa.

So...a miracle, then.

It is a miracle, what happens for each of us, here on this site, Copa.

So, who could say other miracles will or will not occur.

That is faith. A miracle, that such a place as this could exist in the world, today. Well, then. Other miracles, any miracle at all, could happen, too.

Any miracle; any time at all.

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I called my father, who I had not talked with for a few days. He was in a bad mood then finally blurted, "Your brother is coming tomorrow."
I just paused a second before I said, "Ok. I just won't call then. How long is he staying?" I was upbeat when I asked.
That started him off on a stream of abuse, in which he kept coughing, which alarmed me.
And I decided at once to put up with the abuse and try to calm him down because he is 91 and I love him and his words were not hurting me. They were more about how we all think he was abusive and conceited...wonder who told him that. I thought my mother was abusive to me and him. But I let him talk. Plus he can't hear well. He thought I said I was hanging up on him.

"If you hang up on me I am going straight to the bank." The disowning card won't work with me. I already went through it. I survived. Nobody will manipulate me due to money.

You handled this so well, Serenity. I love the way you were able to name what was happening abusive and yet, for love of your father, made a rational choice to stay present and hear him.

That was important to him, Serenity. A gift. Oh for heaven's sake on the part where he thought you said you were hanging up! Poor thing, really. That is so sad for him, to think that his money would matter to you more than he does.

Do you think he will ask Brother to call you?

If he does, and if you take the call...would you ask Brother whether the letter he sent, the one you did not read ~ could you ask Brother whether it was a "This is why I hate you letter"? When you posted that you had not read the letter, I have always wondered whether Brother had been making a confession of his own, about himself.

About something he could not face telling you unless he put it in a letter. And if that were true, he might see your decision to turn away from him as a judgment about whatever he may have confessed in that letter.

Men...I think men don't generally tell us what bugs them about us in letters. A letter, the sitting down and writing of it, the decision to mail it. He may have been sharing something he was too vulnerable to tell you ~ to tell anyone, in person. That knowledge may be the thing that drew he and your sister together.

If it is bad, when you speak to him, you have us. If it is bad when you speak to him, you will have confirmation that turning away was and continues to be the right thing.

But...what if the letter was something, some vulnerability, some secret thing he wanted his family to know and accept him for?

And what if he thinks that is why you rejected him?

What do you think about this thinking, Serenity?

You are strong enough to risk hearing a bad word or two before you hang up on him if he is, after all, a person who would write a sister a nasty letter.

Then you would know, you would be certain.

And I know I sound like a dork in one way, but...what if he needs you to know his truth and believe in him and love and accept him and this was all a terrible misunderstanding where Brother is concerned?

Sister, we know for sure because of the stalking and the insistence that you are someone you could never be. We know too that Sister would use anything in the world to validate herself and trash you.

But I just always wondered about that letter from Brother.

I didn't know how to post about it though, or how to bring it up.

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I hope to think M would not betray me. I do not know, really.

There are no guarantees, Copa. D H could leave me tomorrow.

Or I could leave him.

But we will have had what we had.

The other thought Copa, is that M cannot betray you. Only you can betray you.

All M could do is leave.

Or stay, when he doesn't love you.

But he brought his mother to you, Copa.

His mother.

He is proud of you then, Copa I think.

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
But he brought his mother to you, Copa.

His mother.

He is proud of you then, Copa I think.
He wanted her with him. I happened to be here. He had no choice.

But looked at another way, he is proud of me. He says he is. I believe him.

He may wish I got out of my nightgown and combed my hair, but he does not say it. I think he honors me. Even when I do not honor myself. Perhaps, especially so.

Thank you, Cedar.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I think it is a truth told by your abuser, Copa. Do you see the black and white thinking. That is how you know.

Okay. What I meant is the black and white thinking happening down in the realm of the Magical Child, that leads you to arrive at and believe in, this thing you believe about yourself.

We can only betray ourselves, Copa. If there is a betrayal, if the witch mother within is present in some negative thing we believe to be true about ourselves...we are betraying ourselves with our thinking.

Cedar
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
That was important to him, Serenity. A gift. Oh for heaven's sake on the part where he thought you said you were hanging up! Poor thing, really. That is so sad for him, to think that his money would matter to you more than he does.

Do you think he will ask Brother to call you?
We are not rich. His money will be a pain in the neck to our benefits,, really. If he chooses to not include me in his will, I will be more prepared...it will mean that everything I thought about him was wrong and I will deal with it then. But I don't think he will. He is just upset that his kiddos do not get along. Or I should say that they don't like me (shrug). It is not my responsibility to do anything about that. And I won't. As far as they go, I am seriously done.

My father knows better than to ask my brother to call me. He most certainly would not. But in Magic Land say he did. I most certainly would not receive his call. As I said, I am done. Done. Done. Done.

And what if he thinks that is why you rejected him?

What do you think about this thinking, Serenity?
Cedar, I am very confident of what he thinks of me. Why, well, I'm not sure since I did not read his letter. And I really don't care much. It's a little annoying because he barely knows me. I said a few mean things to him too when I was distraught and I am sorry and maybe he based our entire lives together on that.

If so, he's not worth it either. He has problems of his own. And I don't need them. LOL...I have enough of my own.

2015 Independence Year!!!!
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Men...I think men don't generally tell us what bugs them about us in letters. A letter, the sitting down and writing of it, the decision to mail it. He may have been sharing something he was too vulnerable to tell you ~ to tell anyone, in person. That knowledge may be the thing that drew he and your sister together.
A letter that started out I've been meaning to tell you all the things that bother me about you (or some such beginning) was not worth finishing.
He probably wrote it at his therapists suggestion although it is surprising she asked him to actually mail it.
Regardless, there are phones. He could have called me to talk about it, but I know him. He doesn't like confrontation and was probably scared. That doesn't make me respect him, by the way.
Now I didn't act well either. I was so rattled I remember shaking as I keyboarded a response, not even knowing what he complained about and it was probably disjointed, angry, and incoherent. I get that way when I'm hurt/upset and it hurt me a lot. I *should* have called him and said, "I didn't read your letter. I want to hear it in your words. So what bothers you about me?
I didn't think of doing that, but that was then.
At any rate, it is over. I have taken off the blinders and seen everyone in my FOO with clear eyes and with all their troubles and issues in my opinion they have no right to heap what they think is wrong with me on me. Since it is my option not to listen to it, I choose not to.
I know he wasn't sharing anything delicate about himself with me. We weren't close!
I will never be sorry I didn't read his "problems with you." I will always regret I wrote back in anger and despair, but I can't take it back and me and him are over so it no longer matters.
My response is on MY shoulders. I have learned a lesson from this.

Go us!!!! ;)
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
And I know I sound like a dork in one way, but...what if he needs you to know his truth and believe in him and love and accept him and this was all a terrible misunderstanding where Brother is concerned?
My brother knows that if he needed me to love him and be here for him, I would be. That wasn't it.

With sister, it is too far gone, but I can still remember the love I had for my brother.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Well, I woke up early and just as well as I have a lot to say this morning. Especially to dear Copa.

This is in regards to choosing deliberately not to have more biological children after Bart because of my family of origin's DNA, and because this is a safe place to talk about my feelings without them being invalidated.

Ok.

Since I was very young I knew I had problems others didn't have and I knew my family did. There was no great awakening either now with this thread or at any other time in my life. Dealing with them and not thinking I was the runt of the litter was my problem...I knew we were a damaged group and was not sure I should extend the DNA anymore.

This has nothing to do with anybody else reading this. I saw a father who could be thundering angry yet powerless against my mother, a very sick mother (it did not take me until late in life to realize she was not normal), a brother who was not normal in some way...not his physical disease, but the fact that he used it as an excuse not to ever have a relationship with anyone ever...perhaps a mental illness of his own and my sister and her problems. Even more, I saw the meanness. That is what bothered me the most. The meanness.Since I have a strong believer in nature trumps nurture every time (and nobody else has to agree with me, but this is where I was coming from) I was afraid of what type of kid I would have alongside my long heartfelt desire to give homes to kids who did have any. The idea of adoption had always appealed to me. I am positive this is because I wished somebody would save ME, but that is beside by point. I figured I'd have my family that way.

But I was young and ambivalent. My ex had medical problems that made having a baby for him impossible. So...and my son knows about this and is fine with it...we went to a doctor for a sperm donor. At that time, I just wanted to be a mother, which I felt I was meant to be and I still believe I was and am a very good mother. Especially to Bart...I understand him...but that's beside the point too. We also put in an application to Holt Phillipines at the same exact time and decided whatever happened first, we would do. I got pregnant on the first try. To this day, I don't know who Bart's birthfather is and any attempts to find out are met with "We destroyed the papers." I am greatly relieved that Bart not only doesn't care, but doesn't want to know. "Dad is my Dad." I love that about him a nd I love him. But my pregnancy was difficult, my baby then child was difficult and I decided never to have a biological child again. Ever. And my DNA and those who shared my DNA was what sealed that decision.

It was a conscious choice. I knew that an adopted child could have just as many problems or more, but did not want to have another biological child. I did not want to increase my DNA. Nobody should be offended by my decision. I had my baby, in spite of that. I would never have had an abortion. I don't believe in abortion. He is here and I'm glad, but I didn't want to keep rolling the dice. I didn't want my mother or sister in my child. Or myself...I have really had to struggle to get to where I am. Life was hard. If a baby was already on earth and needed a home, a nd it was hard for that child, maybe I could help that child. It didn't make sense to me to keep reproducing when there were so many other kids who needed homes and when I didn't LIKE the way my family was. It wasn't that there was mental illness (almost all struck in some way) it was that they were MEAN. And I believe that can be inherited.

So into my life came Goneboy, Princess and later on, with current husband, Sonic, Jumper and the kid we adopted who was horrendous already...way too damaged to be in a family, but we didn't know. Goneboy left and part of that was our decision to adopt an older child, close to Bart's age since Bart loved to play with other kids. That backfired big time on every level. Goneboy was a nice, but VERY independent little boy, and Bart and him fought since the first. When one asks Bart about his childhood, as I have, he will say, "I had a good chlidhood. You only made two mistakes. You didn't make me eat venegtables (to this day he hates them and, by the way, I did try to make him eat vegetables...hehe) and adopting Goneboy. It wasn't a good idea to adopt a child so close to my age." I love him to pieces. I'm sad that he inherited my anxiety disorder. But, in general, he has done well. I didn't want to roll the dice again. Adopting a child as old as Goneboy is difficult for anybody. We thought we could love him so much he'd love us back, but I now know that it doesn't always work that way with older adoptees. I'm talking six, not two, Copa. Your son was much younger. Anyhow...

So strike one for hubby and me, although they did learn to co-exist.

Goneboy did not want to be parented and pretty much parented himself. I'm not sorry we brought him here because he thrived in the good ole U.S.A. But we realized we did not shape this child in any way. He was too old when he came. He was already used to taking care of his own needs. His formative years were over.

We adopted a baby next, Princess, and Princess was everything we wanted in a child. She had her struggles, but her disposition is kindhearted and sweet and caring and she is smart. Her daughter is the perfect baby. She is NOTHING like my DNA family and I love her to pieces partly for her kindness. NO sign of my DNA there. We have some traits in common. She was highly emotional, as I was in my 20's, but she is learning to deal with it and is the best mom ever. I love her to the moon. Her sweetness is music to me. I was not used to her degree of sweetness.

I divorced, married again and husband had already been "cut" but decided he liked kids after he lived with a woman for four years who had two boys. He was very willing and eager to adopt more kids so we got Sonic and he is truly a blessing from God. I can't explain what a sweet, loving, hardworking, loveable person he is. Again, any trace of traits of my DNA...not there. I'm glad and I love him to the moon and back.

Next we adopted Jumper and I'm sure by my posts everyone knows that I feel Jumper is the perfect daughter, perfect kid. I am so blessed to have ALL of my children, including Bart. I would not give him back. Is he harder to deal with? Yes, b ut I promised myself that no matter what I *would* deal with him because I refuse to scapegoat him and ostracize him like my mother did me. And he is really only hard for me to handle when he is under stress (his anxiety disorder) and he doesn't handle it well and neither do I. But I'm not sorry I gave birth to him and loved him up. I'm just glad I didn't take any further chances. He turned out all right and is thriving in many areas, but I feel bad every time he has an anxiety attack. I can not help it. I don't want my child to suffer, no matter how old he is. And I know he got that from me.

Adopting an 11 year old after Jumper turned out to be a disaster and I realize there are some kids too old to love enough to save. We did love him. We had no idea what he was doing. We gave him the benefit of every doubt until we found out he had killed two of our dogs and molested our babies. He was gone.

I don't want to write about that now other than to say the strength of my relationship with my husband held us together plus the incredible, compassionate free services offered to us by the county made us, if anything, stronger than ever . Do I wish we hadn't adopted the 11 year old? YES!

So I had troubled kids in spite of not wanting to duplicate my DNA, but I was able to deal with it better, even when devestated, because I at least knew I was not the cause of it. He was what he was way before he met us.

Do I wish I'd done it differently?

Yes. I wish I had known that six and eleven year olds could not be loved to wellness and caring.

But I am really very happy with my family. To me, my kids are the best kids ever, including Bart. I love how he has good memories of his childhood. I think it may have turned out differently if my FOO had been in his life, b ut thankfully they rejected me which meant they were NOT in his life. He doesn't miss what he didn't have nor do my other kids and I feel loed and cared for by all of my children, except Goneboy, andd I honestly believe the adoption psychologist I saw who told me t hat he had attachment disorder...he had been formed before meeting us and we gave him the chance to build a good life here, which he did.

So my motives for only having one biological child may offend some, but this is about MY decision and this thread is about us and our FOO and in my case, problems and all, I chose not to keep reproducing because I saw a meanness/coldness in my FOO that I did not want to see in my kids.

You don't have to agree with my decision, but I'm content with it and that is what matters. I would not have wanted a child that reminded me of me (Bart doesn't) or my mother or sister or brother. So we adopted and gave homes to kids who may have not gotten them, especially Sonic who lights up my world. And my husband's world. He was pretty much labeled hopeless. He proved everyone wrong. I do not care that he has a minor disability.

Copa, my mother should not have ahd kids. But I'm glad she had me. I'm glad I exist. Still, it has not been an easy life. I did it without parenting or support. I cannot take on the bigger philosophy which is should any of us have been born because of flawed parents. We are here, so my beliefs tell me that we are here for a reason and SHOULD be here...to learn. To learn how to love. We were meant to be.

I do not think about or judge whether people ho are already here should have been born. The answer is yes.

But I also have no problem with people who decide to go childless for ANY reason or people who choose to have non-conventional families for ANY reason, like me.

The bottom line in this thread about our FOO is that their dispositons and meanness scared me enough to be leery of having children who contained their DNA. I did have one, but decided not to do it again and it is what it is. If I was meant to have more biological kids I believe I would have been lead to do so. As it was, true to my nature, I preferred to adopt and I am not sorry things turned out the way they did. I am NOT sorry I have Bart. We love each other a lot.

I hope this puts to rest my decision. I know I did not have to justify myself, but I consider all of you my friends who patiently listened to me and read my life's walk. So this was just another step I took.

By age six I knew both myself and my entire family was a trainwrreck. I had very young insight into this. That doesn't mean I didn't want this damaged bunch to love me. I did. And that is what this thread is about...learning to live with or without our FOO.

I think our FOOs influenced many of our life decisions. In my case, beyond the kid issue, I decided to dedicate my life to helping others, to be compassionate to the down and out, to remember "there but by the Grace of God go I." I decided deliberately to never call my children names. I may have said, "I don't like that behavior" but I never ever once said "You are bad." If you asked my kids, they'd tell you that, no, they were never called names. I never labeled any of them as good/scapegoat.

In my mind, I have four good kids and had to let Goneboy go, but he is successful in his life.

I am not sorry I did not have more biological children. It didn't spare me from problems with some, but it spared me from deliberately spreading a DNA set I didn't want tos spread and at the same time trying to help other kids who needed homes.

I am content with my decision. I will discuss it no more, but felt that explaining myself once as ok. It is, of course, a part of my healing which is full steam ahead.

Love and hugs and hoping for understanding from all of you.

Work today (groan). A four day weekend. All of you have good, peaceful days!!!
 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I hope this puts to rest my decision. I know I did not have to justify myself, but I consider all of you my friends who patiently listened to me and read my life's walk. So this was just another step I took.

It was a good step.

Thank you, Serenity.

I am content with my decision. I will discuss it no more, but felt that explaining myself once as ok. It is, of course, a part of my healing which is full steam ahead.

Taking stock of our lives and ourselves is so good for us. Your story is beautiful and courageous and there is sadness and joy and the depths of life lived through the heart.

Just think, that you lived has changed everything. I had been so focused on the tight close-up, on the details and the thinking and the healing and etc that I forgot about that. If we pan the camera back?

Oh, we are doing so well, here!

Thank you again for sharing your story with us, Serenity.

It's so easy to forget ~ to think we are just living a life, when the truth is that it all matters, everything we do and think and believe.

Very nice post.

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I knew that an adopted child could have just as many problems or more, but did not want to have another biological child.
SWOT, my comment on the other thread was not a comment on adoption. Rather, I responded to your disparaging yourself as a contributor of DNA to a child.
I didn't want my mother or sister in my child. Or myself
This is the thing you are dealing with here on thread. Your feelings about yourself, because your mother and sister are in you, both shared DNA, shared environments, outlooks and influences, and memories.
Life was hard. If a baby was already on earth and needed a home, a nd it was hard for that child, maybe I could help that child.
That was exactly my motivation to adopt. Exactly my reasoning.

It didn't make sense to me to keep reproducing when there were so many other kids who needed homes
I never reproduced at all. But this determined my choice to adopt. Also, I did not believe it was moral for me to produce a child, because I did not have a mate, with whom to raise that child. I believed it was wrong for me to choose to bring a child into the world, without a father. Many people feel differently. But I felt this way.
You don't have to agree with my decision
Of course I do not. I never questioned your decision.

I responded to what I thought was your denigration of yourself. As a potential parent and as a contributor of DNA to a child. Everybody;s DNA SWOT has its weaknesses. And it is not always clear what is a weakness and what a strength. Because DNA responds to environmental influences. What is a weakness in some environments is a strength in others.

I don't know. It could have been that the marriage of your parents itself, was what was toxic, and that either parent's DNA in the form of a child, would have flourished in another couple, with another sort of interaction. Nobody knows.
I'm glad I exist. Still, it has not been an easy life.
Nor has been mine, or Cedar's or anybody's.

Finally, I did not comment on your decision to adopt.

I feel differently about my own DNA. Even though it is probably not the highest quality if it was rated by objective experts, whoever they are. I wanted to reproduce.

What I commented upon is what sounded to me like you were talking bad about yourself, and what is intrinsically you. Not your choices.
 
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