Family of Origin (FOO) Support Thread Part 2

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
And even 4 years ago, when he went to the BIG CITY after I threw him out here. The hotel owner, Mark, said that my son as if worshiped me, that I was bigger than life, to him.

I see shame there, Copa. Shame and love and the horrible understanding that you have let someone down, that they are disappointed and that you are powerless in the face of the thing on your back.

My son speaks to me, seems to think of me, says words to me, that I never believed he would say to any person or animal. He treats me worse than I can imagine. But in his eyes Copa there is pain. And in his eyes there is a desperate plea I cannot find an answer for.

In his eyes I have seen a man I don't recognize.

So I am thinking how to do this thing for my son.

I would like very much to see him again. Not the man he is now, but my real son.

We have accomplished other impossible things here.

We set out to do these things to be stronger enough to approach issues with our children from improved perspectives.

Maybe there is a solution.

Cedar

Hurry and get better, Copa.

SWOT and I are waiting.

We started this together; you are almost there.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Betrayal: it means we are being encouraged to take conscious responsibility for how love moves through us.

When we are betrayed, consciously or otherwise (conscious betrayal: our moms and our sisters) (unconscious betrayal: our addicted or troubled kids.)

What betrayal means, according to the site I referenced earlier:

It means we are being encouraged to take conscious responsibility for how love moves through us.

I love this.

Responsibility for how love moves through us.

What does that mean, do you suppose? Not so much in the case of FOO, but in the cases of our children? There is an answer in there somewhere to how to do this. Conscious responsibility for how love moves through us.

Why are they hurting us? I mean, what is the intention behind the hurtful words our children say. Do you see the difference between the sappiness or the hatred that passes for love in FOO and what passes between yourself and your child.

I am thinking about that, this morning.

Cedar

Conscious responsibility for how love moves through us....
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
You can do this, Copa.

Look, when we post here, we are not changing what anybody thinks of us---our families or kids or strangers. We are learning how to change how WE deal with what they think of us and to stop obsessing over wishing it were different. Do I wish everything was grand? YES! But it isn't and I can't change that alone so I am looking at it a different way. What is best for me? What reality do I see, since everyone has his/her own view and opinion. Two people can experience the same event exactly and see it differently.

Take 911.

Most I know of see it as a horrendous act of terrorism against us.

But others, with a different perspective, see it as something that was inevitable due to our Middle Eastern policy.

I'm sure there are third, forth and fifth perspectives too.

Our families have different perspectives too.

What we see as abusing us, they can truly see as us being the abuser. We can choose to accept it or to look hard at the reality that we see. Cedar and I and you have spent HOURS posting about what happened as we experienced it, with our families and with our children, who are part of that family. I think writing it out makes it clearer to us. We are actually admitting we were abused or are being abused. Maybe those who are doing it to us don't think of it that way, but we do and for us that is all that matters. Our life. Our experience. Our trauma. We feel and felt it whether or not others tell us we shouldn't have because it didn't happen. If we feel abused...we were abused. Others may have not even known they were doing it or they MAY have known, but it doesn't matter. WE have to heal, in spite of them.

Your son has his reality. You have yours. You lived with him. You know that as much as you love him you can not live with him. That it doesn't work. He is angry because of your reality so he hurts you. That is not acceptable to you. His anger does not mean he doesn't love you. The opposite of love is not hate...it is apathy. He is not apathetic toward you.

Obviously he will not be happy with you unless he gets his way. Some people are like that. But your worth is not whether your son is happy or not because you two can not live together. You ARE worthy. You are very bright and have seen and done and accomplished more than most people ever will. How can you think you are worthless??? Those things matter! YOU maatter. The love in your heart is huge. It matters. Your goodness matters.

My opinion, which could be wrong, is that if you could find a way to see things differently about you and your son you will make major strides. Maybe see your new relationship as still loving one another but his late growing pains. Maybe, as I mentioned before, once in a while, a meal together at a restaurant would keep you in touch. If he gets irrational or abusive, change the subject. I kind of learned how to do this. Although his conspiracy theories rattle you (as they would me) let him talk about them as you eat calmly. You don't have to agree or disagree. At least he is with you and not pounding at you (he's pounding on the world...who cares?) and when you part you know you gave him one good meal and your company and you can say "I love you" in person. I don't know if this would work out. I'm just trying to help you find another way to think about your son and your relationship with him and a way to keep the ties, which you both want.

You can even bring him something small when you see him. Socks. A $10 gift card from Walmart. Anything really.

I hope you can find your way soon. We care about you a lot.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
He was tremendously thoughtful (I do not know whether to use past or present tenses here.) A naturally gifted scholar. Tremendously articulate. Interested in all things. He would have been the most gifted professor.

I did not know these things about your son, Copa.

How tragic, that we have lost them as we have. How fortunate SWOT's daughter was able to come back. How unbelievably fortunate that my own daughter survived the past years.

What in the world, Copa and SWOT.

So much pain, and such loss.... Not just for us. For the world, really. Who knows how many of our children may have been carrying one part of that thing that will make a difference for all of us, a forever difference that will never happen now, with so many of our sons and daughters destroyed? Here is a secret thing I believe: It is the most creative, the most brave, who simply have to sample every dangerous thing for themselves.

Those are the ones that are lost to all of us, now.

I really do think this might be true.

Blazing creativity; courage and intent.

Gone.

Cedar

No, I am serious you guys. Think of the way all of our kids seem to be talking; think of their interests, even now. What kind of addict in the old days followed the economic cycle? Knew the rhythms of the planets and stars? Cared about anything at all but their drugs of choice?

roar
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Oh, Cedar.

There is a world of creativity and intelligence and wasted potential on this entire forum. It is heartbreaking.

Copa, I figured your son had those qualities...at least was very smart and capable of having a wonderful life.

But the world is full of late developers and there is still hope. Many of our children who sought drugs out start to straighten out and get their lives together at your son's age and even later. It retards emotional development. It takes time. It can happen. All it takes is a change of direction by the adult child and we can never guess when that will happen.

Copa,my daughter was not showing any signs of changing. We had just tossed her out and she called her brother (Goneboy, whom she was once so close to) to beg him to pick her up and let her live with him. He had tenants in his house by then (real leases...the kid always a head for business) and he only had his basement for her, but he drove up from Illinois to get her, however he had a list of rules as long as a roll of toilet paper and she never listened to us so I exected him to get tired of her fast, although I hoped he didn't. I really didn't want her on the street.

In his house, for whatever reason, maybe her own desire not to be homeless, she listened to his rules and got clean with her new boyfriend helping her. She did not tell us this was her intention. She didn't use services. She just did it and quit cigarette smoking along with it. She told us afterward and we thought "Sure. Prove it." She did.

In the end, Goneboy did throw her out because he is a very religious Christian who did not believe in sex before marriage and he knew they were (daughter and boyfriend) doing the dead and they had an ugly yelling match, which may have been the beginning of the end. Princess's boyfriend never forgot that he yelled, "You're just using each other! You will NEVER last."He was wrong, but I am grateful he stepped up for her one last time and possibly giving her sanctuary and strong rules that she felt she had to follow saved her life.

Nobody saw the quit coming.

We never know what is going on in their minds.

When asked now, she will say, "I just got tired of the crazy drug life. I wanted to be normal."

Where there is life, Copa, there is hope. Your son is still alive. There is hope for him. And it may just happen out of the blue.

Child of Mine and ToughLovin' did not expect their kids to turn around. They are. PatriotsGirl did not expect it. She is thriving.

It is always so rewarding, but a surprise.

I hope you get t his prize one day too. Until then, be good to you and figure out "How can I deal with the reality of my son yet not let it take over my life? How can think about it in a way that is different than I've been doing?"

Hugs!!!!
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Love is a moving thing. I hadn't thought about it that way, either. How do we receive; how do we allow the flow of it. Where are we in that ebb and flow? Where are we culpable if someone treats our loving shabbily, as though it were less than the wonder it is for someone to love us?

When we have been betrayed, when there have been signs we ignored that our loving and believing in someone was seen cheaply or was treated as though it were some cheap thing, easily used and cast away...where is our responsibility there. Are we truly victims, or have we made a choice?

We've made a choice.

Acknowledging that, we are free.

The betrayal was not between us and the other person.

The betrayal occurred between us and ourselves.

"It fell so low in my regard
I heard it hit the ground.


Whatever goes in here.

:O)

Yet blamed the fate that fractured less
than I reviled myself
For entertaining plated wares
upon my silver shelf."


Emily Dickenson

Isn't that an interesting way to see it.

I am talking betrayal of FOO.

I think we have no choice but to love and to suffer when we are talking about the kind of betrayal having to do with addiction.

But our FOO?

Alright. So, maybe not our moms. But our sisters?

Heh.

Cedar
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
When we have been betrayed, when there have been signs we ignored that our loving and believing in someone was seen cheaply or was treated as though it were some cheap thing, easily used and cast away...where is our responsibility there. Are we truly victims, or have we made a choice?

We've made a choice.

Acknowledging that, we are free.

The betrayal was not between us and the other person.

The betrayal occurred between us and ourselves.
This is so excellent I want to print it out and frame it and keep it on my refrigerator.I will at least print the poem.

I am always telling my kids, especially the girls, that they have to speak up for themselves, take care of their own needs, not always do what others say, and leave toxic people behind them. I am so hoping that my kids don't do what I did. I betrayed myself by letting very unhealthy influences into my life and into my heart. *I* let them in. It was within my power to say, "I can't do this anymore, Sis. BYE. Don't call me, I'll call you." I could have sent a letter to my brother after his "What Bothers Me About You" letter to me just one sentence "I won't be needing your services anymore." Maybe I would have added "I did not read it and never will." Instead I demeaned myself and shot back an angry, tear-stained, disjointed letter to him that I can't even remember. Since it was written in a world of hurt I'm sure it just made brother think, "I was right." Yes, I shot back a letter WITHOUT even reading his. Of course, I knew it had to be mean, but still. My fault for responding to him, especially while so freshly assaulted. ALL MY FAULT I could have told my mother, "I'm not going to let you abuse me for fun anymore. Don't call me, I'll call you." Which is what happened anyway, but stupidly I kept calling. And kept letting Sis come back. And did not once question brother about how he felt he had a right to send me a letter like that when he barely knew me. So it is really, in the end, on me that I did nothing. I allowed them in. This is after my husband pointed out to me that any time I talked to any of them I started to cry. He learned to hate them by proxy. But more than that...he saw the sick dynamics and pointed them out to me. Why didn't I listen to him? He loved me, they did not.

Cedar, that is the very best way yet for me to look at the abuse. It is and was my responsibility to protect myself and I didn't. It is my fault and I can't do it again. Thanks again. The healing just keeps on coming.

I am so glad I started this and have such smart friends.
 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Cedar, that is the very best way yet for me to look at the abuse. It is and was my responsibility to protect myself and I didn't

We couldn't know it was abuse until we examined specific incidents and named them for what they were: abuse. We didn't know. We were little kids when it started ~ babies, really; we had zero experience of the world. How could we know we were being treated badly? More importantly, how could we know we were being taught to treat ourselves badly? We grew up being abused, and came to be targeted by other abusers who hurt us and moved on and we never even knew we'd been abused because it felt normal to us.

Isn't that something.

We have even abused ourselves. I think we will find that too, as we continue working, here. Remember, "That'll do, pig."

And that had been an improvement on prior self talk.

Now, we know.

We all have done the hard work of looking at terrible things, and shaming things, and have learned to see our abusers through our own eyes and to never see ourselves through the eyes of our abusers ~ whether from abusive people in our childhoods, or in our adulthoods, or through seeing in ourselves those things our abusers told us were true about us.

We are not ugly.

News flash: We are not stupid or bad or foolish. We are fine.

Porcelain fine, and precious; and our lives are precious, and our people that we love who are troubled are precious to us, not damaged by us.

***

Now, we know.

That was the hard part.

We are learning now ~ I think this is what we are learning, now ~ to define and interpret betrayal in our lives. That is the essence of abusive relationship.

Betrayal of trust.

We have each been through so many hard things. We consistently put them behind us and moved on in spite of the hurt. We forgave, literally and meaningfully and without reserve, in spite of the hurt. In a way, you could say we believed for all of us that we could do this but our FOO prefers everything the way it is.

That is a sadness for them.

We are aware now.

That was all we ever needed.

Once you see, you cannot unsee.

That is why I loved that quote on love and betrayal. That is exactly true. We are responsible for how love will move through us, for how we will see ourselves in relation to others.

SWOT, I have been thinking about what that must have been like, when one of your adopted sons had to be removed from your home. How awful all of it must have been for you, and for everyone in your family. My question though was...is this the point at which vehemence in FOO verbal attacks increased? I post alot about vulnerability when my own family fell so hard and fast, and about how my FOO seemed to ~ I don't know. Seemed almost gleeful; seemed...contemptuous. Seemed oh, so eager to know the details of the pain of it.

Seemed to want to see me hurt and helpless and I was.

That was abusive.

That behavior on their part was betrayal of a trust.

Here is something I thought of on second reading and am editing in: What my sister did, tracking my daughter down on FB and pretending concern to get every last hurtful detail and then, dumping her and, essentially, making sure I would know that she knew about the brain damage and etc when I was still reeling from all of it myself ~ this is what she did to me, all through these years when she would sidle up, practically licking her chops.

Well, huh.

I never knew that.

***

I should never, ever, have been treated in such a way; not by anyone. I understand, from reading on the site, that this is a common reaction from neighbors and friends who are not friends.

But this should not happen in family. My family was wrong to do what they did. Even though we had D H family, I never understood it was the members of my FOO who were wrong in their responses to what was happening to us. I was so ashamed before them that it was happening. So ashamed.

I am just getting that now, today.

They were wrong people to do what they did.

And I am so surprised.

Betrayal is a very good word for us to use to define many aspects of self and other, I think.

I am glad I found that.

Cedar
 
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BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Cedar thanks for caring enough to ask.

That happened about ten years ago. By that time, I was no longer telling much to my FOO, including my on again/off again sister. I don't remember if I told her about that, but I may have. If I did, anything s he said, good or bad, bounced off my mind as I had bigger issues to worry about such as healing my family. So I'd say no. She did not and I'm not sure if my mom was alive or not, but I certainly did not tell her about that incident, I'm thinking, nor my brother, who I rarely spoke to at all.

They amped it up after my grandmother, who loved and tried to protect me, died.

Before that, they abused me, but did not pull out the guns. Actually it was my mom who pulled out the big guns when I refused to give Bart $5000 while excluding my other two kids just because they had been adopted. THAT did it. My sister got harder to deal with (not that she was ever easy) after her divorce. My brother somehow got involved in the act, although we barely interacted. I think he was mad that I called for a wellness check on his apartment when he had allowed kids to stay there while he was in Chicago. I had no idea he was in Chicago (Sister insists she did not say he had canceled his tickets, but SHE DID) so I thought he was at home and I was afraid for him since these kids sounded high and said he didn't live there. So I called the police for a wellness check on my brother. It was not a big deal, but I think he was embarassed. He likes to be Best Friend of Students and this probably upset him and maybe that triggered it. Maybe it was something else.

I sit here and think...how stupid was I?

Why did I EVER put up with my mother for her entire life? WHY?

Why did I allow my sister back into my life after she cut me off and called the police the second time? I understand second chances, but third, forth and fifth? C'mon, Serenity, YOU ARE NOT THAT DUMB!!! But I was.

I never did try to weasel my way in with my brother after his thing with the teenager or even before that and that probably ticked off my mom too. H e was the great love of her life, as she was his. And I didn't worship him. But neither did Sis. I don't believe even today that she likes him. She had little good to say about him for his entire life until she cut ME off. He is just the last way for her not to be alone. And he's alone too so he needs her like she needs him now.

Anyway, back to me. I made some really dumb choices. Yes, they were dumb. Dumb to try to heal with mother before she died. Dumb to give sis so many chances. I know that people tend to do the same things over and over again and still I didn't seem to apply that to those I loved. And that was it. I did love them. Ugh. What a waste of my love.

Well, live and learn.

Cedar, I love putting the responsibility for the abuse, at least in adulthood, on my own shoulders. I was no longer dependent on my mother or sister and I could have left them both, but I didn't. That blight is on ME. They did not change how they treated me; I just let them do it and I had a choice.

Thanks for this new perspective.[/QUOTE]
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
“I am held, and part of everything."
Instead of aloneness I see this as connectedness.

When I think about holding faith with myself, my own truth, and choosing to betray another to do so, I am thinking about my mother. When I spoke those words: Your life is not more important than mine.

That of course had been the basic rule of my life with my mother. Accepting that her needs and wants were over ours.

And it was against accepting that rule, that I had always rebelled, and left her for decades. But I had never challenged the basic rule to her.

I left because I felt that I could not live, accepting up front that my needs and well-being were less important than hers. I left the game. I thought it was rigged. But I never ever stood up for myself. Until near the end.

I want to know if you can disappoint another to be true to yourself; if you can bear the accusation of betrayal and not betray your own soul; if you can be faithless and therefore trustworthy.”


~ Oriah Mountain Dreamer

You are correct, Cedar, I brought my mother home with me without an end date.

And what I had to face was that the end date, meant my own demise.

To what ever extent my mother still had her mind, she took advantage of the situation and saw it as an opportunity for a win. She could not see me as having value along side of her. I was somebody to be exploited and used.

Even if by this time her mind was gone, the unfortunate thing for her, was that was her M.O.

It was so deep in her psychic DNA as to be her default.

Like an animal in the jungle she exploited the vulnerability of a victim, and she preyed.

It could well have been that by the time she came to my house, she lacked the judgment and faculties to plan or modulate or decide what would be in her best interests. Had she been able to she would have played it differently.

The sadness is that what she did do, played into my fear of her, my pathology, my training as a small child to forfeit myself for her. And so when I forced myself to see what I was doing (actually when M would no longer tolerate it and forced me to respond, and to take a stand), I had to take a stand for who I had been vis a vis my Mother for my whole life.

I had been her victim. I loved her and love her, but in a match between us, I would always lose. That was the way the game was rigged.

Cedar, I know no other way to be.

(If I tell the real truth, I wish I had gone along with the program. I wish I had never stood up for myself. I wish I had never made her suffer. Still.)

"I resonate with Oriah’s poem because it speaks so eloquently about being true to oneself even if it appears to betray another."

I cannot accept this in my situation. Not to save myself. That I am aware of, with another person, I have never until that moment with my mother taken a stand for myself. Except with M.

As I re-read this, I see it as false. But not completely, so. I have taken many stands for myself. But there has been a way that I softened the isolation. It would not be adversarial, to the extent that I could avoid this. I will find a compromise or a go around. Essentially strategies assumed by the powerless, or by women when they were so.

M has often said that he did not understand why I stand up to and oppose him and not anybody else. It seems patently clear to me. He is strong and I do not fear hurting him. I know he may hurt me, but not kill me. I trust his integrity. Not in the moment. He fights dirty. But in the end of it. He does not take advantage of somebody injured or weak. He is not a predator.

With my Mother, even if she would have killed me, I would have preferred to die. At the end. I did.

"When we override our deeper truth no one wins."

My Mother does and did. She could have cared less about my deeper truth. Or the deeper truth of any other person.

"But, when we are willing to cultivate greater presence with our own experience and to listen to the ‘knowing’ that guides us then opportunities open for authentic connection and flow."

My Mother was not interested in authentic connection. She wanted what she wanted. That was my Mother.

I am wondering now if I even have a self. Of course, I do. But a very badly maintained and treated poor old self.

I am my own little flower. With just 4 little impossible thorns. I will love her. I will take care of her. I will protect her. I will soothe her when she is sad and cries. What is it? I will draw a fence, around my little flower self, so that the sheep do not trample her.

It is a start.

The Courage to Start the Conversation…How do we each innocently betray ourselves?

I think the real and first betrayal is to fail to acknowledge we are even there. To not even consider the presence as a viable party to the conversation, that essence of us, that is a self. I think I existed for my entire life, silent and invisible. I never even consulted my self. Because I did not much acknowledge me or I, except from a place of deep pain like when I decided to adopt my son.

What is it that we know, but we pretend we don’t know? No more than what I said above. There is a self. It may be wounded, and compromised, and neglected and unheard. But it is there.

At any moment the decision can be made to act from the self, and to make the self the absolute priority.

If one decides to act from the self, there is clarity.

The self is an absolute. What the self needs is not abstract. It is not relative. It is true. Because it is true, there is no here or there. No maybe. No qualification. So to acknowledge the self and to do right by the self immediately is to find certainty and to know the right course.

While the self may exist in the interior, and we may not know where to go, or how, there is a clarity....and purpose there. Because the way to go is illuminated by feelings, by commitments, by truths that are held in a way that nothing else is.

I do not think it is hard to know what to do or say if one acknowledges the self. I have not yet tested this, but I believe this to be true.

I think this is why M has so little self-doubt. I think his mother taught him this practice. I think he errs, and can err and be lost for many, many years. But I think he knows how to begin again, because his Mother taught him how to talk to G-d and to begin again.

I think this is what M would wish for more than anything for me (and for him) that I would want to be part of a religious community and dialog. It frustrates him because I have not stuck to it here in the small community where I live.

They are just so provincial. There I said it. I want an intellectual conversation. I will try again when we go to the new place. My experience of my community is a highly ethnic one. It is tied to memories that are much older than my own life. The people here are many of them converts, or highly assimilated. Where I am going it is not like that. It can be as if it was centuries ago.

"When we allow fear to take the reigns, and we don’t trust the wisdom of the conversations that are arising from inside of us, we limit the depth of intimacy."

My Mother was limited in the intimacy she wanted or could have. My Mother was very, very warm and compassionate. Under certain hothouse conditions she could give of herself. If you were in the deepest pain, she was at best and most giving. My Mother had a great deal of heart in moments of crisis if there was nothing at stake involving her interests or cost to herself.

But in her real life she was the center of the world. That was her default.

It means we are being encouraged to take conscious responsibility for how love moves through us.

What practice do you have in your life that allows you to initiate the difficult conversations in order to stay connected?

The only practice I have currently have to speak my wisdom is posting here. I think the value of this board is this. We are all in such desperate need. So alone. So separate from others with more conventional experience. So ready to hear truth. So in need of it. So much in need of each other.

That the only thing that works, is to speak our wisdom. And because of the rawness and openness of everybody else, we have the reward of being heard. And so real conversations continue.

I think my conversations with M are not as direct or even verbal.

M is a know it all. He jockeys for position with me.

The conversation I have with him is more a symbolic and physical one. I depend upon him almost to keep my alive. He sees and feels my abject need and suffering. I see and feel his. That is the nature of our conversation.

There was a time, in the beginning, that we read the same books. I love the Argentine writer, Jorge Borges. We read stories and essays and spoke of them. I know we can find a common ground. Whether it is spiritual or literary or dance.

So that the conversation does not feel as if it is a question of dominance and submission for either one of us.

M does not see that in certain conversations with him I feel like he is killing me off. I stop them, and he gets frustrated. I do not have the strength of will that does he. I am making him sound bad. He is not.

He is a gentle and good man. He has softness and kindness. But he is a man.

Thank you, Cedar.

PS I forgot to say this. I am fortunate to have a profession that has afforded me something important. In my work I have always had the commitment to integrity of the relationship, and my voice in it. So, I had to always take a stand to protect my own voice and its integrity. To protect the other person in the relationship, I could not override the truth of my own voice. Because that itself would have been a betrayal of the relationship. So, I have the experience of knowing that I am trustworthy and I am not a betrayer. Through this experience.

I have never however held myself as important enough to deserve my own trustworthiness for myself.

Second, this same profession allows me the opportunity to continue this practice in a powerful way, with the awareness and commitment that I am a person with a self that needs to be acknowledged and cared for. That I have never done.



 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I sit here and think...how stupid was I?

Why did I EVER put up with my mother for her entire life? WHY?

Why did I allow my sister back into my life after she cut me off and called the police the second time? I understand second chances, but third, forth and fifth? C'mon, Serenity, YOU ARE NOT THAT DUMB!!!

It wasn't dumb, Serenity.

You didn't know. You had no healthy frame of reference. Now, we are developing frames of reference.

First, for what is unhealthy in us, for where we are bruised or stained, for how that happened, for how to bring those hurt places back from the cold and into whole, vibrant life.

As we listen and hear and learn compassion instead of shame at the pain of the broken places, we are healing and renaming ourselves.

Healthy comes next.

I think you have incredible heart, Serenity. You are very, very bright. Your vocabulary is amazing. You are steady and strong, or you would not have been able to create the family you have created and held together. You had no adequate role model. You have accomplished everything you have accomplished on heart and courage alone.

And you did it against impossible odds and, as we each are learning is true for us, without the support of family.

But more than that...he saw the sick dynamics and pointed them out to me. Why didn't I listen to him?

My D H did the same, Serenity. Copa's M protected her, brought her to her senses, as well. There is listening, and there is hearing. I think it has to do with levels of toxicity. Whatever fragile balance the extended family attains shatters at the death of a parent.

The level of toxicity rises; the poison at the core is revealed.

That is what we are having a look at, and healing.

The toxicity at the core of the things we were taught, about ourselves, and about ourselves in the world.

We are doing well.

And what I had to face was that the end date, meant my own demise.

Can you clarify, Copa?

This occurred to me: Deciding I needed to know how to conduct myself relative to FOO fueled this investigation for me. I have had a terrible time letting myself let go of my mom, Copa.

Like you, and like SWOT, I love my mother.

The difference between you and I is that I have been given the gift of time.

You were not.

I could change my mind, could call her tomorrow. These issues have been issues of choice, for me. When I am healed, I will be stronger. Everything may look very different to me then.

You came into relationship with your mom knowing there was no time.

I don't mean to be unkind but your mom had an unfair advantage. I feel pressure because it is likely my mother will die before I do. So, I need to come to a conclusion about everything pretty quickly, here.

Your mom had the advantage because what was happening was already happening when you saw her again. How could you explore rage / sullen resentment / lust of vengeance.

Love.

It was already too late.

You would have to part the Red Sea Copa, and stand between the towering walls of water to hear and hold yourself with compassion, your Childhood on one side whispering its truths, and your Adult on the other, hearing them in secret, knowing the mother is already gone.

I have not had to be as strong as you have had to be.

(If I tell the real truth, I wish I had gone along with the program. I wish I had never stood up for myself. I wish I had never made her suffer. Still.)

May I ask the nature of the suffering, Copa?

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Anyway, back to me. I made some really dumb choices. Yes, they were dumb. Dumb to try to heal with mother before she died. Dumb to give sis so many chances. I know that people tend to do the same things over and over again and still I didn't seem to apply that to those I loved. And that was it. I did love them. Ugh. What a waste of my love.

Serenity...whose word is "dumb"?

You are tearing into yourself really hard, here. Listen to how you rage against yourself for loving your people, for giving them and yourself time after time to make a different choice. They can't help it, Serenity. They cannot see it anymore than we were ever able to name what it was that blackened everything, that turned it ugly.

“I am held, and part of everything."

This is beautiful.

I will have it as my mantra.

I want to know if you can disappoint another to be true to yourself; if you can bear the accusation of betrayal and not betray your own soul; if you can be faithless and therefore trustworthy.”

~ Oriah Mountain Dreamer

Not yet; this is where we are going.

The only truth we have is our self. That is what we have been betraying with our thinking our abusers hurt into us. We will be faithless, without illusion and therefore, trust worthy.

But I never ever stood up for myself.

D H tells me that if I had been able to stand up, either my FOO would have been saved or I would, as Oriah Mountain Dreamer tells us, have been healed from these wounds we are clearing now, long since.

That is the issue.

We have never stood up; we have never taken our stand nor spoken our truths.

Now we are.

We had to learn them first.

At the end of it, we learn we determined our own destinies through our thinking. That the essential betrayal was ours, to ourselves. Sometimes, this seems to simple and clear to me.

Sometimes, I am lost again; seeing myself through a filter named many things, but "betrayal of self" may be the true naming.

Multicolored.

A kaliedescope.

The sadness is that what she did do, played into my fear of her, my pathology, my training as a small child to forfeit myself for her. And so when I forced myself to see what I was doing (actually when M would no longer tolerate it and forced me to respond, and to take a stand), I had to take a stand for who I had been vis a vis my Mother for my whole life.

"...vis a vis my Mother."

What we are doing here is extraordinary work.

These exact things have happened to me, Copa and Serenity. D H would no longer tolerate and forced me to take a stand. Initially, I stood against him. Had these other toxicities not come to a head, I may have left D H; may have chosen my mother and my sister. The question is: Would that have been a fatal error, or would I have stood up? Given the work we do here, I know I would have stood up either way.

We are choosing, in every instance we are the ones choosing.

How extraordinary.

But there has been a way that I softened the isolation. It would not be adversarial, to the extent that I could avoid this. I will find a compromise or a go around. Essentially strategies assumed by the powerless, or by women when they were so.

You were writing about the isolation in having taken a stand.

Perhaps we are coming through enmeshment then. We are fledglings, coming into the power of flight; learning to savor, and not to fear, the exhilaration of isolation.

Here is a question: Are there such things as positive tapes. Do we all run tapes or is it only those of us, forced by our abusers to learn and abide by betrayal of the self, who hear that negativity surrounding every smallest thing.

"That'll do, pig."

Think about it.

That one, I could access.

We are doing good work.

M has often said that he did not understand why I stand up to and oppose him and not anybody else. It seems patently clear to me. He is strong and I do not fear hurting him. I know he may hurt me, but not kill me. I trust his integrity. Not in the moment. He fights dirty. But in the end of it. He does not take advantage of somebody injured or weak. He is not a predator.

With my Mother, even if she would have killed me, I would have preferred to die. At the end. I did.

D H, the same. Except that D H can be too pushy. That is why I stand up to him; that is the essence of why we are together. There is the energy; that is where we play.

D H is not a predator, either. I am beginning to think "nice" equals predator.

I am beginning to think that, but I have always known it.

You can spot them a mile away.

I used to watch myself reflected in those mirrors they hold up. A kind of narcissism, then. Now those mirrors have gone dark. I know the answers regarding those facets of self.

No more vulnerability to those particular kinds of predation.

So...what about compassion?

With my Mother, even if she would have killed me, I would have preferred to die.

There is a key here that unlocks betrayal of self. Or there is a key here that illuminates the nature of the struggle or names the opposing forces.

There is a key, a thing we must envelop or devour.

Or both.

"But, when we are willing to cultivate greater presence with our own experience and to listen to the ‘knowing’ that guides us then opportunities open for authentic connection and flow."

My Mother was not interested in authentic connection. She wanted what she wanted. That was my Mother.

Each time Copa, you define your Mother's response to life, or to you, and not your own. You, Serenity, me ~ we grieve authentic connection with our mothers.

That is the wound.

Every betrayal flies from there. Like a connection that was never made as so, the music cannot play.

Here is a scary dream, the scariest nightmare ever, about my grandmother's house. I think I finally understand.

And celebrate it.

"The wires connect and the music...plays, of its own accord."

We are meant to be whole; even in this time of healing, our consciousnesses are just along for the ride.

It is time. It would be happening whether we were watching or not.

I am my own little flower. With just 4 little impossible thorns. I will love her. I will take care of her. I will protect her. I will soothe her when she is sad and cries. What is it? I will draw a fence, around my little flower self, so that the sheep do not trample her.

From The Little Prince, I learned that we come to love through responsibility, through caring for.

That is what I learned, there.

Caring for is a choice having nothing to do with the thing cared for. It is a choice we make having to do with ourselves, and with who we might wish to be. It awakens no sense of obligation in the loved thing.

Remember Tom Hanks and how he loved Wilson? And Wilson took on the Wilson identity as the character needed Wilson, needed a Wilson, needed any Wilson.

This is true.

But I don't know what it means.

***

But I think it has to do with the nature of the mother's love, and with how that felt; with the balance attained and the wrongness of it in interpreting the challenges anywhere other than in relationship with our mothers.

It has to do with that.

Something about Copa's four thorns.

Something to do with that.

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
PS I forgot to say this. I am fortunate to have a profession that has afforded me something important. In my work I have always had the commitment to integrity of the relationship, and my voice in it. So, I had to always take a stand to protect my own voice and its integrity. To protect the other person in the relationship, I could not override the truth of my own voice. Because that itself would have been a betrayal of the relationship. So, I have the experience of knowing that I am trustworthy and I am not a betrayer. Through this experience.

I have never however held myself as important enough to deserve my own trustworthiness for myself.

This is interesting, Copa.

I have learned integrity of relationship in the world through my interactions, and particularly through my professional interactions, too. In my professional interactions, I expected my self to be better than myself.

And like you Copa, and like you Serenity in your professional persona, I was. I did. I am.

But in trustworthiness of ourselves, Copa and Serenity, we are coming face to face with the selves our mothers needed us to be.

Professionally, we were trained to meet expectations of another kind altogether.

And that is why, professionally, we find integrity in us, and strength and certainty and joy that is lacking in our personhood.

Read again Copa, your last paragraph.

Because I did not much acknowledge me or I, except from a place of deep pain like when I decided to adopt my son.

We have not taken ourselves seriously. We have only known ourselves through our mothers' eyes. Pain, isolation, sense of purpose ~ these things we experience on our own.

Unless we close our eyes.

And that is the nature of the betrayal.

***

Here is a quote:

"I play the song to which you must dance. To you is left the freedom of improvisation. This improvisation is what you call free will.

This is from The Jesus Incident.
I will find the exact quote and reference it for you correctly.

This is the symphony we are engaged in, this music we make of our lives through our interpretations, through the meaning we believe ourselves to have found; meaning found through which tones resonate for us.

That is what we are attending to, here. Tones of meaning.

Classical music ~ think of that. Think of where we find that sense of recognition and the possibility of other interpretations.

What we do here can be likened to broadening our senses of possibility. It was always there. A thousand tones, a tapestry of color and sound.

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
But in trustworthiness of ourselves, Copa and Serenity, we are coming face to face with the selves our mothers needed us to be.
If I think of the essence of my Mother, I think of a predator bird. Noble. Beautiful. Dangerous. Remote and elegant.

When my son was a very little boy we went to a big metropolitan zoo every weekend. Without fail. Because we had no family we went on holidays too.

Once there was a demonstration of the predator birds with their handlers, leather gloves protecting their arms.

Oh, look at the birdies, as I walked with my son hand in hand, approaching them.

Until a man pounced on us to detain us, loudly denouncing me. Are you crazy? These birds can kill a child.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Betrayal is a very good word for us to use to define many aspects of self and other, I think.

The essential betrayal is to ourselves....

I had not been able to see that, when I first began working with these concepts. If we had seen this true thing sooner, would we have been able to change the currents ~ not just the currents, not just the tendency to see as they see, but the toxicity in the way of seeing. If one of us refuses to buy into the game ~ not as victim, not as victor...what happens, then? What if we were able to have the fact of the thing without ~ I don't know. Without placing ourselves along a hierarchy of values.

Would that be what is meant by presence?

She could not see me as having value along side of her. I was somebody to be exploited and used.

I feel this way about my FOO. At first, this way of thinking seemed an earth shattering revelation, changing everything. But here is the question I am asking this morning:

How is it that we took these assessments of our worth to heart when we know better? Not that we are better or worse than, but just the true thing that we are not her. She is not us. We are not an extension of her.

Are we seeing from some place of brokenness created in us as infants before separation ~ before we understood that our mothers are not us?

Is that what we are trying to heal.

That would be a wordless place, because we did not have words, yet.

Maybe that explains why we cannot see it, cannot see the broken place.

We will just have to trust that it is there then, and that individuation is the name of what we are...is where we will be when we are through this part.

The Courage to Start the Conversation…How do we each innocently betray ourselves?

I think the real and first betrayal is to fail to acknowledge we are even there. To not even consider the presence as a viable party to the conversation, that essence of us, that is a self. I think I existed for my entire life, silent and invisible. I never even consulted my self. Because I did not much acknowledge me or I, except from a place of deep pain like when I decided to adopt my son.

What is it that we know, but we pretend we don’t know? No more than what I said above. There is a self. It may be wounded, and compromised, and neglected and unheard. But it is there.

At any moment the decision can be made to act from the self, and to make the self the absolute priority.

If one decides to act from the self, there is clarity.

Is this describing the nature of the same wound, of the same wordless broken place I have been describing, here?

Another learning from The Little Prince regarding those we love. Something about "never listen to the flowers". I recall a time I wrote a piece of poetry whose meaning changed for me over time, causing me to be ashamed. I realized this morning that the writing of it was true. It was the change over time, the believing what I might have meant instead of what I know I meant that is the betrayal of self. Negative self talk come from...where?

That is how we do this to ourselves.

That is the essential betrayal. That is how it happens. Copa. Whose voice is it telling you, whose voice is it, changing what you know about how you behaved when you went to your mother's side?

Is it your own, Copa.

Did we make a mistake somewhere in translating through that broken place where we are not individuated yet and are we extrapolating a death wish that was never the mother's intent or that was the mother's own wounding, come from who knows how many generations past and passed down to us.

If I think of the essence of my Mother, I think of a predator bird. Noble. Beautiful. Dangerous. Remote and elegant.

When my son was a very little boy we went to a big metropolitan zoo every weekend. Without fail. Because we had no family we went on holidays too.

Once there was a demonstration of the predator birds with their handlers, leather gloves protecting their arms.

Oh, look at the birdies, as I walked with my son hand in hand, approaching them.

Until a man pounced on us to detain us, loudly denouncing me. Are you crazy? These birds can kill a child.

You did not do this to your child, Copa.

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
My family was wrong to do what they did. Even though we had D H family, I never understood it was the members of my FOO who were wrong in their responses to what was happening to us. I was so ashamed before them that it was happening. So ashamed.

I am the betrayer here. Not them. I betrayed myself.

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
When we have been betrayed, when there have been signs we ignored that our loving and believing in someone was seen cheaply or was treated as though it were some cheap thing, easily used and cast away...where is our responsibility there. Are we truly victims, or have we made a choice?
Clearly, we have made a choice.
The betrayal was not between us and the other person.

The betrayal occurred between us and ourselves.
Yet blamed the fate that fractured less
than I reviled myself
For entertaining plated wares
upon my silver shelf."
I never understood it was the members of my FOO who were wrong in their responses to what was happening to us. I was so ashamed before them that it was happening. So ashamed.

And what I had to face was that the end date, meant my own demise.
Cedar, what I mean is this: I brought my mother home with me. The idea is that we, M and I, take responsibility for her until her death.

I felt there was no other option. I could have moved to the City where she lived. That would have felt worse. I did not have the strength to do anything else than I did.

It was horrible. I became her servant. By that time she was roaming the house. When she could not find the bathroom, she peed where she thought it might be appropriate. Poor thing.

I was still buying her clothes like mad. She looked adorable. But wanted help to get kleenex. Walk to the bathroom. Get a glass of water. It was relentless.

I am not cut out to be what I think they call a hand servant.

I became an automaton. I did her bidding. Who saw our interactions, were horrified.

I became a shell of a person. While desperate, I saw no way out for myself. I knew I was not surviving this, but did not know a way to not do it. To stop it felt beyond my power and will.

(Kind of what FeelingSad is going through, having gotten the restraining order for her son. She would have kept living like that forever, even if it killed her. She could see no other way, given who she was, not to.

Only in a moment of crisis, supported by her therapists, did she step up. She is horrified she did so. Because nothing in her past self would have predicted it. And she is not yet able to live with, to accept what she did as courage and responsibility not just to others, but to herself and her son.

Nor am I. M made me do something. Or I would not have spoken to my mother. I was walking the plank. I would not stop. Until M made me do it.

He said: It is you or your mother. One of you will die first. If you keep going like this, you will die first.
She is stronger than you. You will die if you keep going.

I knew he was right. I knew I did not want to sacrifice my life.

Because in my heart I knew my mother was a predator and in these days I was her prey. I did not want to die as prey.

In this way, I knew that I chose it. I chose for my mother to leave. But still, I cannot accept it.

I prefer to see myself as having died. Than to accept that I hurt my Mother. This is how deep is the betrayal of self.
(If I tell the real truth, I wish I had gone along with the program. I wish I had never stood up for myself. I wish I had never made her suffer. Still.)
You asked, Cedar, that I expand on how I made my mother suffer.

She wanted to stay here in my house...I guess she accepted she would die...although she did not speak of it. Eventually I said no. We visited several places where s he could live. She picked one. Really, indifferently. She was just walking the plank. That was the feel of it. Something that I had caused.
Not too long after she moved into the Board and Care is when the screaming began, and her rejection and anger towards me. She blamed me. No matter what I did she would not stop. Until she was out of there. By that time she was really dying, although it took 4 months.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
If one of us refuses to buy into the game ~ not as victim, not as victor...what happens, then?
This is what I thought I did by separating. Not seeing them. Not talking to them.

But doing that was just another way of buying into the game.
Are we seeing from some place of brokenness created in us as infants before separation ~ before we understood that our mothers are not us?
You mean, here, like a merged self? That we have never individuated enough to really feel completely like a separate person. That while we may in the world create a persona, in crisis, we act from a self that by default, from the eyes of the mother.
Whose voice is it telling you, whose voice is it, changing what you know about how you behaved when you went to your mother's side?

Is it your own, Copa.
Cedar, I am wondering if with respect to me, my own self, if I have a voice at all. Or ever did.
Did we make a mistake somewhere in translating through that broken place where we are not individuated yet and are we extrapolating a death wish that was never the mother's intent or that was the mother's own wounding, come from who knows how many generations past and passed down to us.
This passage horrifies me. It means that I have to take responsibility for a whole life of distance from my mother because I was not strong or whole enough to stand up for myself, to feel as if I was enough to be with her.

I do not believe that there was intent on my mother's part to kill me off. After all, her life and comfort at that point depended on me.

I think at the end when she left she was resigned.

What if the whole time, I could have made it different? But I did not know how. It was not for lack of trying....I just did not know a way to survive near them.

There was a time with that old therapist, when I realized he did not really want me to have a self or a voice with respect to him. It felt like the most crushing of blows. As if blinds and shutters and curtains were closing. I resigned myself to accepting this as my fate or destiny. And I participated in closing out all hope. Because this is what he needed and wanted. I betrayed myself. I knew it at the time. I felt there was no other option for me.

I do not know why.
 
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