WHat do you think of parents who don't immunize their kids?
- Thread starter BusynMember
- Start date
Gardasil is a very interesting vaccine, in my opinion. It is the first that can actually prevent cancer. I hope that someday we find immunizations to prevent most cancers. In light of the fact that so little research is done on females, and most female-only diseases are way down on the priority list except breast cancer, I find it amazing and wonderful to have a vaccine to prevent a type of cancer supposedly only in women. I suspect that in years to come we will find problems that HPV causes in males, but now we only vaccinate females.
I have had several very long (10-30 min each) talks about gardasil with the ob/gyn. I would strongly urge you to NOT wait until a girl is 13. Evidence strongly shows that those vaccinated before age 12 have a far stronger immune response and testing shows they do not often need boosters later if they have had the full course. Sadly Jess has only had one dose. Her reaction was VERY strong, and we came very close to taking her to the ER because nothing helped. The pediatrician told us to call the ob/gyn, which we would not have done because it started out like a flu bug but got really really bad. Jess lost over 35 lbs in under a week from it. the ob/gyn gave us guidelines for what is a mild, moderate and severe reaction, and we hit severe. I asked the doctor if it was her daughter if she would continue the shots and she said no way because the reaction is usually a bit worse with each dose. Because of this, I focus extra attention on letting Jess know that she is more at risk for problems, and she needs to be careful.
I think having people keep their kids who are not vaccinated home when something is going around is a fairly intelligent way to handle things. our schools would NEVER allow this as if you miss ten days then you flunk unless you really really push the schools. We got super lucky that the elem school adored thank you because they just ignored that rule with him - he missed 1/4 of each grading period for years. But he was always the top student in each class - though that was not supposed to mean anything with all the absences.
I have had several very long (10-30 min each) talks about gardasil with the ob/gyn. I would strongly urge you to NOT wait until a girl is 13. Evidence strongly shows that those vaccinated before age 12 have a far stronger immune response and testing shows they do not often need boosters later if they have had the full course. Sadly Jess has only had one dose. Her reaction was VERY strong, and we came very close to taking her to the ER because nothing helped. The pediatrician told us to call the ob/gyn, which we would not have done because it started out like a flu bug but got really really bad. Jess lost over 35 lbs in under a week from it. the ob/gyn gave us guidelines for what is a mild, moderate and severe reaction, and we hit severe. I asked the doctor if it was her daughter if she would continue the shots and she said no way because the reaction is usually a bit worse with each dose. Because of this, I focus extra attention on letting Jess know that she is more at risk for problems, and she needs to be careful.
I think having people keep their kids who are not vaccinated home when something is going around is a fairly intelligent way to handle things. our schools would NEVER allow this as if you miss ten days then you flunk unless you really really push the schools. We got super lucky that the elem school adored thank you because they just ignored that rule with him - he missed 1/4 of each grading period for years. But he was always the top student in each class - though that was not supposed to mean anything with all the absences.
Malika
Well-Known Member
I feel it's a difficult call. If a parent has genuine reason to believe and fear that vaccinations can cause serious damage, who can say what the "responsible" thing for that parent to do is...? It's a dilemma, surely, and I don't see how people can be accused of being selfish or irresponsible for witholding vaccinations because of this. I have a friend in Morocco who has a niece who is autistic, so everyone believes, because of the MMR. She has not vaccinated her children. It makes life difficult for her and them, though, because in various situations, vaccination certificates are required. You can't start school in France or attend any sporting activities without them.
What I object to is not being warned of the ill effects. Jacob had the MMR jab in Marrakesh when he was about 2 (I think, but he's had so many vaccinations that frankly I forget what happened when). The paediatrician said nothing about any side effects - he was seriously ill with high fever for about 10 days afterwards. Then I read that that often happens...
What I object to is not being warned of the ill effects. Jacob had the MMR jab in Marrakesh when he was about 2 (I think, but he's had so many vaccinations that frankly I forget what happened when). The paediatrician said nothing about any side effects - he was seriously ill with high fever for about 10 days afterwards. Then I read that that often happens...
flutterby
Fly away!
The vaccine causing autism thing has been debunked. Repeatedly. Serious effects can happen, but are rare, and so the benefit outweighs the risk. The routine vaccines - polio, MMR, pertussis, tetanus, etc - have been studied for years and these vaccines are the *only* reason we don't see widespread epidemics of these diseases anymore. If parents want to rely on junk science to justify their reasons for not getting the vaccine, and their kid gets sick, and/or causes other kids to get sick, then they should pay the price.
Chicken pox is a potentially serious illness and is one of the main ones my son's doctor is concerned that he might be exposed to - in large part because lots of people see chicken pox as no big deal and haven't been vaccinated. Plus chicken pox is highly contagious and can be spread through coughing and sneezing not just contact with the blisters. An exposed person who has not had chicken pox stands a 70 to 80% chance of getting it once exposed.
What complications can result from chickenpox?
Although most people recover from chickenpox uneventfully or with a few minor scars, a small percentage suffer more serious complications. Each year in the United States, 4,000 to 9,000 persons are hospitalized with chickenpox, and up to 100 persons die. Those at highest risk for complications are newborns, persons with weakened immune systems, and adults. Although adults make up fewer than 5% of chickenpox cases in the United States, they account for half of the deaths from the disease.
The most common complications of chickenpox are skin infections and pneumonia. Other complications are encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) and hepatitis. Chickenpox can also lead to severe problems in pregnant women, causing stillbirths, birth defects, or infection of the newborn during childbirth.
What is the treatment for chickenpox?
Anti-virus medicine is available for treatment, but it is used mostly in adults and others who are at risk for developing more serious disease. Skin infections, a common complication of chickenpox, can be prevented by keeping blisters clean and not scratching them.
How common is chickenpox?
Almost everyone gets chickenpox by adulthood. In the United States, chickenpox affects about
4 million persons per year, mostly children. In temperate climates, most cases occur in the late winter and spring.
Although most people think that chickenpox is always a mild disease, deaths from chickenpox continue to occur in the United States. In 1997, three young adults died from complications of chickenpox. All three were infected by unvaccinated pre-schoolers.
What complications can result from chickenpox?
Although most people recover from chickenpox uneventfully or with a few minor scars, a small percentage suffer more serious complications. Each year in the United States, 4,000 to 9,000 persons are hospitalized with chickenpox, and up to 100 persons die. Those at highest risk for complications are newborns, persons with weakened immune systems, and adults. Although adults make up fewer than 5% of chickenpox cases in the United States, they account for half of the deaths from the disease.
The most common complications of chickenpox are skin infections and pneumonia. Other complications are encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) and hepatitis. Chickenpox can also lead to severe problems in pregnant women, causing stillbirths, birth defects, or infection of the newborn during childbirth.
What is the treatment for chickenpox?
Anti-virus medicine is available for treatment, but it is used mostly in adults and others who are at risk for developing more serious disease. Skin infections, a common complication of chickenpox, can be prevented by keeping blisters clean and not scratching them.
How common is chickenpox?
Almost everyone gets chickenpox by adulthood. In the United States, chickenpox affects about
4 million persons per year, mostly children. In temperate climates, most cases occur in the late winter and spring.
Although most people think that chickenpox is always a mild disease, deaths from chickenpox continue to occur in the United States. In 1997, three young adults died from complications of chickenpox. All three were infected by unvaccinated pre-schoolers.
Malika
Well-Known Member
Hmmm... not much room left for debate there
As you said, you have strong feelings on the issue, flutterby.BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Well, science has strong feelings on the issue. With an autistic son, I am constantly reading about it.
If parents believe something that has been repeatedly disproven, I still feel they should have to pay the consequences such as their kids being unable to attend events where t here are other kids.
My main concerns are whooping cough and measles. You want to risk your kid getting it, go for it. But don't send your unvaccinated child around mine. And keep them away from the elderly and infants who are too young to be vaccinated.
The autism fable happens because those with REGRESSIVE autism (a small percentage) tend to regress at about 18 months, the time you get your vaccines. As for a high fever, I prefer a few days discomfort to possible death.
JMO
If parents believe something that has been repeatedly disproven, I still feel they should have to pay the consequences such as their kids being unable to attend events where t here are other kids.
My main concerns are whooping cough and measles. You want to risk your kid getting it, go for it. But don't send your unvaccinated child around mine. And keep them away from the elderly and infants who are too young to be vaccinated.
The autism fable happens because those with REGRESSIVE autism (a small percentage) tend to regress at about 18 months, the time you get your vaccines. As for a high fever, I prefer a few days discomfort to possible death.
JMO
Malika
Well-Known Member
But MWM it just isn't true that all scientists and all scientific research have completely debunked the link! See this article, for example http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388051/Scientists-fear-MMR-link-autism.html
I don't myself have strong feelings on the subject. I had my son vaccinated (and, yes, it would have good to have been warned about the fever!). I am just saying that there is a debate here...
I don't myself have strong feelings on the subject. I had my son vaccinated (and, yes, it would have good to have been warned about the fever!). I am just saying that there is a debate here...
skeeter
New Member
There's lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Cause and effect is very hard to prove.
I had to be re-immunized for german measles and mumps. When they did my titers during my first pregnancy, it was found that mine hadn't taken (this is actually common for those that get the shots in the late 1960's). I held off getting my son's shots until I could get mine, so I didn't have a chance of getting something if he reacted badly.
Neither of mine receive the chicken pox vaccine, because they both had very bad cases of chicken pox right when the vaccine was becoming available. Both have had titers done and have strong immunity.
And, of course, with my son being in the Navy and going to the Persian Gulf, he had a boat load of vaccinations the general public never receives.
Cause and effect is very hard to prove.
I had to be re-immunized for german measles and mumps. When they did my titers during my first pregnancy, it was found that mine hadn't taken (this is actually common for those that get the shots in the late 1960's). I held off getting my son's shots until I could get mine, so I didn't have a chance of getting something if he reacted badly.
Neither of mine receive the chicken pox vaccine, because they both had very bad cases of chicken pox right when the vaccine was becoming available. Both have had titers done and have strong immunity.
And, of course, with my son being in the Navy and going to the Persian Gulf, he had a boat load of vaccinations the general public never receives.
Shari
IsItFridayYet?
I don't recall the specifics, but the vaccine injury fund has paid out to a young girl who ended up with autism. I know no specifics about it. Personally, I don't think vaccines cause autism. I think we will find a genetic response to an environmental stimulus to be the cause. WHO KNOWS what that environmental stimulus will be...I have a little more trouble these days believing all the studies. So many have been skewed. And honestly, what kind of national panic would it create if they did come back and say vaccines caused this or that, even if the chances were slim? We'd have even more people not vaccinating, and these diseases could easily make a comeback.Some kids die from the vaccines. Excluding autism, Some kids do have bad reactions that cause life-long injury. But if we are going to mess with 'survival of the fittest', there will be a price to pay. in my humble opinion, this is the price. Vaccines have been great for the majority.
tiredmommy
Well-Known Member
My husband had a life-threatening case of chicken pox as a child; it can be very serious. I never had it and but still show no titers, even after receiving two vaccinations in my early 30's. The doctor said I have natural immunity, but I imagine I could still be a carrier.
I hope Marg manages to see this thread. I'd be interested in her view as a scientist.
I hope Marg manages to see this thread. I'd be interested in her view as a scientist.
hearts and roses
Mind Reader
Both my girls received the gardisil vaccine. H was very much against it. However, in difficult child's case, I imagined she'd sleep around a bit (just the facts as they pertain to difficult child) so I thought it best to go with it. I hesitated with easy child, but am glad she had it done as well, since she's had a couple of partners, one of which I can guarantee has seen a lot of action.
Susie, my understanding of what our dr and I discussed was that the gardisil is not a vaccine specifically against cancer, but rather the HPV viruses that CAN cause cancers of the cervix. I know it may seem like semantics, however, gardisil's projected coverage only guards against 85%~90% of HPV viruses. Also, just last night I saw an ad proclaiming that they are considering giving the vaccine to boys as well.
When mine were little and knew a kid had chicken pox, mothers would purposely expose their kids to get them over with before they entered school. easy child got a full blown case, difficult child had them twice and our pediatrician told me it's because the first time she was exposed she was still so young and nursing that she had my immunity from breast milk. I know chicken pox are serious, but moreso as an adult. Also, our pediatrician told us way back that chicken pox is a herpes virus and I don't think many people know that. Shingles is also a herpes virus, closely relative for those who never had a full blown case of chicken pox. Interesting thread-I'm really enjoying it!
Susie, my understanding of what our dr and I discussed was that the gardisil is not a vaccine specifically against cancer, but rather the HPV viruses that CAN cause cancers of the cervix. I know it may seem like semantics, however, gardisil's projected coverage only guards against 85%~90% of HPV viruses. Also, just last night I saw an ad proclaiming that they are considering giving the vaccine to boys as well.
When mine were little and knew a kid had chicken pox, mothers would purposely expose their kids to get them over with before they entered school. easy child got a full blown case, difficult child had them twice and our pediatrician told me it's because the first time she was exposed she was still so young and nursing that she had my immunity from breast milk. I know chicken pox are serious, but moreso as an adult. Also, our pediatrician told us way back that chicken pox is a herpes virus and I don't think many people know that. Shingles is also a herpes virus, closely relative for those who never had a full blown case of chicken pox. Interesting thread-I'm really enjoying it!
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
But MWM it just isn't true that all scientists and all scientific research have completely debunked the link! See this article, for example http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388051/Scientists-fear-MMR-link-autism.html
I don't myself have strong feelings on the subject. I had my son vaccinated (and, yes, it would have good to have been warned about the fever!). I am just saying that there is a debate here...
The ones who claim it causes autism are in the far minority. Many "doctors" who think so are not doctors at all, but DAN doctors (not doctors with degrees). At any rate, I stick to what I say. Keep your at risk kids away from crowds of people. Or form a homeschool group that does not vaccinate. Please don't bring your kids to where others are.
Again JMO
You are correct, it is for HPV. But HPV does cause a huge percentage of cervical cancers and precancerous conditions of the cervix that require treatment. While not all types of HPV cause cancer, quite a few of them do in women. I'm sorry wasn't more clear.
Malika, here in the US informed consent is a big deal. Before each immunization is given a parent has to sign a paper giving permission. That paper gives all the known possible side effects and if it doesn't people have the right to sue the doctor giving the immunization and the company who makes it. Sadly, a LOT of parents here don't read it all. I drove the staff at the dr's office nuts because I wouldn't sign until I read and understood it all. Seems most parents just sign and it took more time than they wanted me to take. I am sorry the doctors where you are do not give you the same information. I DO think every parent has a right to know the good and bad about every vaccine, but that needs to be based on well designed and conducted scientific studies/experiments. NOT junk science.
Malika, here in the US informed consent is a big deal. Before each immunization is given a parent has to sign a paper giving permission. That paper gives all the known possible side effects and if it doesn't people have the right to sue the doctor giving the immunization and the company who makes it. Sadly, a LOT of parents here don't read it all. I drove the staff at the dr's office nuts because I wouldn't sign until I read and understood it all. Seems most parents just sign and it took more time than they wanted me to take. I am sorry the doctors where you are do not give you the same information. I DO think every parent has a right to know the good and bad about every vaccine, but that needs to be based on well designed and conducted scientific studies/experiments. NOT junk science.
witzend
Well-Known Member
I believe that everyone residing in the USA should have their full range of shots. Not just when you want to go to school, but as a general health safety practice. We don't allow e-coli in the water, even though e-coli does not make everyone sick. I remember as a kid when the Rubella vaccine came out, we were all lined up in every school and every child got one. Period. I remember kids with braces because they'd had polio, and I remember when kids got ill and never came back to school. People who think that they are saving their child from the imaginary autism have never had to save their child from the very real polio or bear a child stricken with Rubella. My opinion is even stronger than yours, MWM. If you're not going to vaccinate your children, don't just home school them, but keep them in your house. It's not as though they can't pass it along in the grocery store or at community softball games. And I don't really give a rip whether they're here "legally" or not. The cost of the vaccine for every man woman and child is far less than the cost to society to care for and educate the people who will contract the disease.
flutterby
Fly away!
That study by Andrew Wakefield has been found to be a massive fraud, and his medical license was revoked. The result? Measles has become endemic in England:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704739504576067801877449500.html
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/hea...x-News-Will-Have-Little-Effect-113039689.html
http://www.fairwarning.org/2011/01/...ne-link-to-autism-a-hoax-investigation-finds/
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/healthday/648562.html
And in August, scientists yet again found no link between the MMR vaccine and autism:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/26/health/26vaccine.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704739504576067801877449500.html
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/hea...x-News-Will-Have-Little-Effect-113039689.html
http://www.fairwarning.org/2011/01/...ne-link-to-autism-a-hoax-investigation-finds/
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/healthday/648562.html
And in August, scientists yet again found no link between the MMR vaccine and autism:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/26/health/26vaccine.html
M
Mamaof5
Guest
The only comment I have is:
If people are so afraid of unvax'ed people then how can the vaccines be so effective if people are still afraid of unvax'ed people. Why do people need booster shots? Why does the CDC themselves say the efficacy of CP vaccine is only 10 yrs which puts the person at risk of complications later in life that would not have been a risk in the younger years? Why is it that my kids who had MMR (three oldest) all ended up with severe cases of mumps and measles when it passed through the schools (vaccinated for it but still got it severely).
Why is it the one child that I have that is completely intact immune wise was just last summer playing with children infected and infectious with CP (chicken pox), hugged, breathed on, sharing juice and food and space. DID NOT get CP and is the only child I have that has not ever gotten it yet. Why is it then that his natural titers (level of immunity to diseases) all read highly immune to measles, CP, mumps, etc etc. Not a single vaccine and I have the medical records to prove it (he's medically exempt, so am I).
It's not a singular thing either. I have plenty of "crunchy friends" as we're referred to that have both witnessed and medically documented the same in their unvax'ed kids. My 4 yr old, cardiac patient, is healthier than my other 4 kids who were partially vaccinated. I don't blame vaccines for autism or mental health issues in children, that's a load of crock, maybe it's a catalyst, a small variable for a small minority of cases but it's still a load of crock even to a non-vaxer (I am NOT an anti-vaxer, there's a difference).
I guess I had more to say than I realized...and I'm sorry there is no such thing as herd immunity. Even vaccinated kids are getting things like croup, measles and CP while being vaccinated. They are ineffective at worse and barely useful at best. Before anyone says anything about thermasol (yes it's still in a good lot of vaccines) it's not the fact that it's there, it's the fact that it is an accumulative agent. The more exposed you are (think radiation) the more it accumulates. Vaccines, tuna fish, drinking water - all these minute amounts accumulate together. Thermasol is just one source of it, just another source to the plethora of sources being dumped into our environment and bodies. Not the sole source but one of them.
My medical exemption is based on documented adverse reactions to Hep B, Flu Shot and Tetanus Shot. On top of that, flu virus are cultured in egg. I'm allergic to egg and shell fish. In fact a good lot of vaccines are cultured in egg base or animal embryo base.
If people are so afraid of unvax'ed people then how can the vaccines be so effective if people are still afraid of unvax'ed people. Why do people need booster shots? Why does the CDC themselves say the efficacy of CP vaccine is only 10 yrs which puts the person at risk of complications later in life that would not have been a risk in the younger years? Why is it that my kids who had MMR (three oldest) all ended up with severe cases of mumps and measles when it passed through the schools (vaccinated for it but still got it severely).
Why is it the one child that I have that is completely intact immune wise was just last summer playing with children infected and infectious with CP (chicken pox), hugged, breathed on, sharing juice and food and space. DID NOT get CP and is the only child I have that has not ever gotten it yet. Why is it then that his natural titers (level of immunity to diseases) all read highly immune to measles, CP, mumps, etc etc. Not a single vaccine and I have the medical records to prove it (he's medically exempt, so am I).
It's not a singular thing either. I have plenty of "crunchy friends" as we're referred to that have both witnessed and medically documented the same in their unvax'ed kids. My 4 yr old, cardiac patient, is healthier than my other 4 kids who were partially vaccinated. I don't blame vaccines for autism or mental health issues in children, that's a load of crock, maybe it's a catalyst, a small variable for a small minority of cases but it's still a load of crock even to a non-vaxer (I am NOT an anti-vaxer, there's a difference).
I guess I had more to say than I realized...and I'm sorry there is no such thing as herd immunity. Even vaccinated kids are getting things like croup, measles and CP while being vaccinated. They are ineffective at worse and barely useful at best. Before anyone says anything about thermasol (yes it's still in a good lot of vaccines) it's not the fact that it's there, it's the fact that it is an accumulative agent. The more exposed you are (think radiation) the more it accumulates. Vaccines, tuna fish, drinking water - all these minute amounts accumulate together. Thermasol is just one source of it, just another source to the plethora of sources being dumped into our environment and bodies. Not the sole source but one of them.
My medical exemption is based on documented adverse reactions to Hep B, Flu Shot and Tetanus Shot. On top of that, flu virus are cultured in egg. I'm allergic to egg and shell fish. In fact a good lot of vaccines are cultured in egg base or animal embryo base.
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