But I don't like your rules

[DaisyFace]

Allan--

How does JJJ do that in a way that allows her to feel that her other children are protected from the get-go? If I understand you correctly, you are talking about a lengthy process that evolves over time....but it sunds like JJJ needs immediate solutions in place right now.

--DaisyF

 

[JJJ]

Allan,

We are doing all of that with her. Her current goal during visits is to spend 60 minutes talking with us without anger, lies or leaving the visit. During those 60 minutes we talk about anything except her issues - football, school, tv shows, etc. She also has a goal to have appropriate turn-taking conversations with her siblings at least once a week. She struggles greatly with these goals but with constant redirection we are seeing some small progress. During family therapy, she is suppose to be working on discussing her issues with us. Her therapist (and the therapist before this one) have both commented that husband and I do an excellent job of listening to her and trying to keep the conversations on track but that Kanga isn't ready yet to work with us on solutions, so we just keep trying.

Your solutions work well with my minor difficult children. We have had great progress with them doing exactly what you have described.

If you check the Parent Emeritus forum here , one sees that our problems with our kids don't disappear when the become 18, it is not easy to kick a kid out of the home.

Allan

I know the problems don't disappear when they turn 18. That is why, if she is still violent at 18, she will be gone. There is a homeless shelter in the next town. If she is still violent in the time leading up to her 18th birthday, she will be told that she will be sleeping at the shelter on her 18th birthday. It may not be easy to force your child out of your home but when given the choice between enabling a violent child and protecting the younger 3, that decision is not hard at all.

 

[Allan-Matlem]

Hi,
I can appreciate concerns for safety , a possible need for supervision and if need be , even before the age of 18 , finding a placement for a child so that the family is safe. The way to go to deal with issues is , even safety issues is not consequences . it is conventional wisdom that when it comes to safety , there should be zero tolerance but the evidence says something different

A task force of the American Psychological Association has recently concluded that zero-tolerance policies, which were intended to reduce violence and behavior problems in our schools, have instead achieved the opposite effect. A review of ten years of research found that these policies have not only failed to make schools safe or more effective in handling student behavior, but have actually increased behavior problems and dropout rates. Yet public elementary and secondary schools in the United States continue to dole out a whopping 110,000 expulsions and 3 million suspensions each year, along with countless tens of millions of detentions.

When I talk about problem solving other peoples issues from the outside , can Kanga take perspectives , can she empathize , can she identify the others concern , can she identify her own concerns and think of various alternatives and solutions , not just one. This in my humble opinion is how we teach empathy, perspective taking - this is how I feel about it , this is how i think you feel about it , when you can suggest a mutually satisfying solution for other people we are moving in the direction of the more emotive stuff . Mentors are so important , because the relationship is more democratic and there is no emotional baggage
A therapist would in my humble opinion be vital to help a family reach undertandings about expectations ands also have a process of reveiwing progress or even trying to come up with another plan.
Instead of asking how we can motivate kids to act differently we should be asking what is getting in their way so I can help .
For me , I have teenagers + , mentors were so important , the more I showed that I understood them , did not try to force a behavior , they were able to reflect on what type of person they wanted to be , what behavior would be beyond their dignity , their self respect.
A person with an anger problem is unlikely to be helped with threats or consequences , maybe medication can help to access the tools and skills we are teaching to help deal with frustration.
It is not easy.

Allan

 

[janebrain]

Mentors are great unless you have a kid who can snow them. My dtr was the queen of twisting people around her little finger and then doing whatever she pleased. She could make people feel so good about themselves and how they were helping this really great kid who just needed some guidance. She would engage in meaningful conversations and make people feel they were really getting through to her only to turn around and do the opposite of what they had agreed upon. In fact, she met a boyfriend who was also a master at this so they conned many people into helping them by presenting themselves as a poor down and out couple who just needed a little guidance and a helping hand.

Sorry, Allan, I know I am cynical but I think you don't know what it is like to live with a con artist. They love to work on solutions with others and appear to have great empathy for others and everyone who meets them is charmed by them.

P.S. I do think my dtr has changed though since she left home--she had to get out on her own before she would make any changes.

Jane

 

[janebrain]

Note to JJJ: I am not implying Kanga is a con artist--just read my post and sorry if it looks like that! Just got carried away, sorry to hijack your thread!
My apologies,
Jane

 

[Marguerite]

Allan, you said, "When I talk about problem solving other peoples issues from the outside , can Kanga take perspectives , can she empathize , can she identify the others concern , can she identify her own concerns and think of various alternatives and solutions , not just one."

From what I gather from JJJ's description - nope. Doesn't sound like Kanga can come close to any compromise, empathy, others' point of view or concerns. And therein lies the source of the vast bulk of these problems.

They are good ideas, Allan. The trouble is, when you're dealing with a kid who is so far outside normal expectations and capabilities, the usual guide books and suggestions just go out the window.

I was posting on another thread yesterday about how despite efforts to the contrary, when the boys were little they each attached inappropriately to someone they shouldn't have. It caused a lot of problems especially with difficult child 1. THis happened despite efforts to prevent it, efforts which should have worked. But from what I understand now, it didn't work because the difficult child-ness was just so extreme. With hindsight, I don't think anything could have prevented it.

Sometimes with a difficult child we can look and see where the problems perhaps started and what we might have done to prevent it. However, sometimes the intrinsic characteristics of the individual are just too "out there" and different, that we're only ever able to be reactive, not proactive.

If there were the slightest chance that Kanga could empathise or compromise, I'm sure JJJ would be doing it. But looking at the diagnosis, plus the description - I think I'd be tearing my hair out too.

Mind you, all suggestions are valid because sometimes in there, can be something we can grab onto and use, when we might think we'd already tried everything.

Marg

 

[JJJ]

Jane,

Kanga is a total con artist!!! I'm so glad you posted. I spoke with one of Kanga's former teachers today who said almost word for word:

She could make people feel so good about themselves and how they were helping this really great kid who just needed some guidance. She would engage in meaningful conversations and make people feel they were really getting through to her

I told her I never met that Kanga. I was feeling pretty bummed about it until you posted. Then I remember I never met that Kanga because she cannot manipulate me. She is a master con artist because this teacher is an amazing person and is very, very good with ED students. I never would have thought she could be conned -- thankfully she knows enough about mental illness to have supported us even when she wasn't seeing the behaviors at school.

 

[JJJ]

Thanks Marg, that is exactly it.

 

[Allan-Matlem]

Hi,

Marg - if one has a fixed mindset for sure she can't .... , if one has a growth mindset one starts to learn how to take perspectives , that is what the explosive child is all about , helping kids who have these missing skills.

If a kid is a con artist - this requires quite a lot of thinking skills , foresight etc so the problem is trust , in order to get my needs met I need to do xyz instead of seeking cooperation. In general the so-called con artists don't seem to be doing well and seem to meeting their needs in a most maladaptive way.

education is a process , building trust is a process, emotional growth is a process.

I have been here since 2001 . On the whole kids benefit less when the approach is relying on medication and treating symptoms with behavior mod. It means having positive young adults , mentors and most important good peers . The only consequence that works is finding a placement out of the home , it works by moving the problem out of the home

Allan