Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
New posts
New profile posts
Latest activity
Internet Search
Members
Current visitors
New profile posts
Search profile posts
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Forums
Parent Support Forums
General Parenting
Hello ladies! (LONG)
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 344477" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Sometimes what seems simple to us, is impossible for the child.</p><p></p><p>You also said that she knows right from wrong. That may be so, but as I said on someone else's thread about their child, kids ALWAYS have a reason for what they do and how they behave. And yes, it is possible that the reason is, "because they want to," but if you have set up a situation where the child wants to do A, but knows he/she will be punished for it, and the child still does A - then there is a very strong reason in deed that your discipline (and threat of punishment) was unable to prevent.</p><p></p><p>That goes for stealing, drawing in class, being obsessed with blades, picking - anything. </p><p></p><p>I think you need to get your thinking back to basics. I think that is what MWM was trying to say in a way when she said your expectations are too high. It's not that your expecting too much - more that what you're expecting is going on in her head, is actually a whole different ball-game. You're making your choices and management strategies based on what you think is going on, and in fact she is being driven in a totally different direction. Until you work out exactly what is driving her and where, you are not going to have much success.</p><p></p><p>You say she's otherwise a lovely kid - that tells me again, that she isn't deliberately choosing to be sneaky and underhand for its own sake. Instead, there is something in her that is a stronger force pushing her to do what she does, than the alternative forces you or the teachers can exert on her.</p><p></p><p>What you need to do, is find out what is driving her, why it is driving her and from there, how you can more directly counter it. Because at the moment, you are setting up opposition to her behaviour. In most discipline situations, this will work. But where a kid is driven by obsession or by her own weird routine that she has developed in order to cope - never forget that her drive will always be stronger than your determination to block her.</p><p>And the outcome of this to and fro, "irresistible force meets immovable object" will be an increased trend towards ODD-like behaviours and she will not be controlled.</p><p></p><p>In other words - conventional methods don't work in these cases, they'll only make her worse. </p><p></p><p>A TV series that was screened in Australia about 20 years ago (based on a true story), dealt with a group of refugees put into quarantine because of a disease that broke out on the ship that was bringing them in to the country. They were refugees from WWII (the series was set in about 1946) and few of them could speak English. However, it was subtitled so we could 'hear' the refugees even while we could see the lack of understanding in the medical staff (who were also quarantined). Each of the refugees had their own story which only made sense if you could follow the subtitles. </p><p>The refugees arrived in most cases with only what they wore, but there was occasionally something extra - one teenage girl had a pair of old, worn boots. She hugged them like a teddybear. To the staff at the quarantine station, the girl seemed very difficult, threw a tantrum if anyone tried to remove the boots. They tried to give her a new pair of boots and she refused them. Then when the medical staff, still stumped by the lethal infection that was claiming the refugees one by one, insisted that the refugees' clothing and possessions all had to be destroyed, there were some interesting reactions, and we found out why (at least, the audience did). The boots had belonged to her father and in the girls' mind while the boots were with her, so was her father. The look on her face as she watched the pile of clothing, including the boots, being burned - heartwrenching.</p><p></p><p>Each of the refugees had a story of sorts, that explained what we otherwise saw as really weird and at times dangerous or aggressive behaviour. It really was a case of "you had to be there". They had each endured extraordinary and tragic circumstances, ones which are impossible to really comprehend unless you have been through something similar.</p><p></p><p>In some way, your daughter has had years of "brain training" and working out her own ways to cope with extraordinary and at times nasty situations. What she does - it's coping strategy. Until she has an alternative coping strategy, she can't stop. You can't simply say, "Don't do this," unless you can replace it with "Do this instead." and to work out how to "Do this instead," she will need someone to first identify why, then what, and form there, what to replace it with. And work with her to involve her in this process.</p><p></p><p>Stealing stuff is not acceptable, obviously. Lying about it - well, she has to cover up for what she does, somehow. Again, it's not acceptable, but it's a natural follow-on from the stealing. So why does she steal? When she takes something back that has been confiscated - in her mind, she is reclaiming her own possessions. Once she's taken something, in her mind it has become hers. Again - why? At some time in her past, having something, having possession of it, has become extremely important and representative of something else. I think it would be simplistic to say it's symbolic of a parent's love. It's probably something more basic than that.</p><p></p><p>A friend of mine has a foster son (who only spends some time with my friend, the rest of the time he is with his parents who are loving but neglectful). When the boy visits, one of the first things he wants, is food. He eats as if there's no more food. He is constantly underweight, only when he's been staying with them for a month or more, does his weight begin to get into the normal range. From our observations (and form what we've worked out and know from the family) those kids don't get fed as much as they should. When they do eat, it's poor quality food. They also don't get clothed well. </p><p>This boy, in my friend's home, is always hungry. But my friend has to watch him constantly - he hoards food and steals it. She's made it clear to him, he only has to ask and he can have whatever food he wants (as long as it's healthy) and he's very happy to eat healthy food. It's not junk food he hoards, it's whatever he can get. It's as if he's trying to make sure he will have something to eat in those times when his parents don't have any food in the house for anybody.</p><p>For this boy, stealing food is a coping strategy. Not a healthy one, but it is what he has developed to help him cope.</p><p></p><p>What I'm trying to say - your daughter is not an average kid. What she has been through, you only know the tip of the iceberg. At 15 she has probably buried a lot of the nastier stuff and can't even remember, even if she wanted to. But it's still done damage and left her with her "coping strategies". Before she can lose these, she needs to know why, and to have alternative strategies. And they have to be worked out carefully, not simply imposed on her. She's probably had a great deal of people imposing their will on her (it's one facet of abuse, after all) and needs to be part of the process.</p><p></p><p>Alternative coping strategy for this will not be as simple as "Do the right thing." </p><p></p><p>A quick example - difficult child 3 likes to throw stones. He watches how they fall. it's an obsession with him. We couldn't stop him, his drive to throw stones was too strong. For him, it's a coping mechanism. So we had to give him an alternative, and work with him to develop this. What we gave him (and it seemed to work for him) was - blowing bubbles.</p><p>One day he left his bottle of bubble mix (pocket-sized) in the classroom and wanted to go back and get it. The teacher on playground duty stopped him and he got very upset, screaming at her. Now, I understand why he got upset, it is something absolutely vital to his ability to cope. But the teacher did not understand - to her, this was a kid who had left a toy in the classroom and he needed to learn personal responsibility, having to do without it was his lesson in learning to remember it next time. The teacher didn't understand, and her response, while probably correct for most kids, was very bad in difficult child 3's case.</p><p></p><p>Does this help explain what I'm trying to say?</p><p></p><p>You are doing a wonderful thing, trying to help this girl. I really hope you are able to help her, but it's clearly no picnic. You need to get right into her head in order to be able to start from there and lead her more gently into the behaviours you want her to adopt. Until you can do this, I think you are set up for failure.</p><p></p><p>But if you can find out where all this has come from, and help her replace some of these strategies with more acceptable ones, then you have a much better chance of success. It also should be more painless.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 344477, member: 1991"] Sometimes what seems simple to us, is impossible for the child. You also said that she knows right from wrong. That may be so, but as I said on someone else's thread about their child, kids ALWAYS have a reason for what they do and how they behave. And yes, it is possible that the reason is, "because they want to," but if you have set up a situation where the child wants to do A, but knows he/she will be punished for it, and the child still does A - then there is a very strong reason in deed that your discipline (and threat of punishment) was unable to prevent. That goes for stealing, drawing in class, being obsessed with blades, picking - anything. I think you need to get your thinking back to basics. I think that is what MWM was trying to say in a way when she said your expectations are too high. It's not that your expecting too much - more that what you're expecting is going on in her head, is actually a whole different ball-game. You're making your choices and management strategies based on what you think is going on, and in fact she is being driven in a totally different direction. Until you work out exactly what is driving her and where, you are not going to have much success. You say she's otherwise a lovely kid - that tells me again, that she isn't deliberately choosing to be sneaky and underhand for its own sake. Instead, there is something in her that is a stronger force pushing her to do what she does, than the alternative forces you or the teachers can exert on her. What you need to do, is find out what is driving her, why it is driving her and from there, how you can more directly counter it. Because at the moment, you are setting up opposition to her behaviour. In most discipline situations, this will work. But where a kid is driven by obsession or by her own weird routine that she has developed in order to cope - never forget that her drive will always be stronger than your determination to block her. And the outcome of this to and fro, "irresistible force meets immovable object" will be an increased trend towards ODD-like behaviours and she will not be controlled. In other words - conventional methods don't work in these cases, they'll only make her worse. A TV series that was screened in Australia about 20 years ago (based on a true story), dealt with a group of refugees put into quarantine because of a disease that broke out on the ship that was bringing them in to the country. They were refugees from WWII (the series was set in about 1946) and few of them could speak English. However, it was subtitled so we could 'hear' the refugees even while we could see the lack of understanding in the medical staff (who were also quarantined). Each of the refugees had their own story which only made sense if you could follow the subtitles. The refugees arrived in most cases with only what they wore, but there was occasionally something extra - one teenage girl had a pair of old, worn boots. She hugged them like a teddybear. To the staff at the quarantine station, the girl seemed very difficult, threw a tantrum if anyone tried to remove the boots. They tried to give her a new pair of boots and she refused them. Then when the medical staff, still stumped by the lethal infection that was claiming the refugees one by one, insisted that the refugees' clothing and possessions all had to be destroyed, there were some interesting reactions, and we found out why (at least, the audience did). The boots had belonged to her father and in the girls' mind while the boots were with her, so was her father. The look on her face as she watched the pile of clothing, including the boots, being burned - heartwrenching. Each of the refugees had a story of sorts, that explained what we otherwise saw as really weird and at times dangerous or aggressive behaviour. It really was a case of "you had to be there". They had each endured extraordinary and tragic circumstances, ones which are impossible to really comprehend unless you have been through something similar. In some way, your daughter has had years of "brain training" and working out her own ways to cope with extraordinary and at times nasty situations. What she does - it's coping strategy. Until she has an alternative coping strategy, she can't stop. You can't simply say, "Don't do this," unless you can replace it with "Do this instead." and to work out how to "Do this instead," she will need someone to first identify why, then what, and form there, what to replace it with. And work with her to involve her in this process. Stealing stuff is not acceptable, obviously. Lying about it - well, she has to cover up for what she does, somehow. Again, it's not acceptable, but it's a natural follow-on from the stealing. So why does she steal? When she takes something back that has been confiscated - in her mind, she is reclaiming her own possessions. Once she's taken something, in her mind it has become hers. Again - why? At some time in her past, having something, having possession of it, has become extremely important and representative of something else. I think it would be simplistic to say it's symbolic of a parent's love. It's probably something more basic than that. A friend of mine has a foster son (who only spends some time with my friend, the rest of the time he is with his parents who are loving but neglectful). When the boy visits, one of the first things he wants, is food. He eats as if there's no more food. He is constantly underweight, only when he's been staying with them for a month or more, does his weight begin to get into the normal range. From our observations (and form what we've worked out and know from the family) those kids don't get fed as much as they should. When they do eat, it's poor quality food. They also don't get clothed well. This boy, in my friend's home, is always hungry. But my friend has to watch him constantly - he hoards food and steals it. She's made it clear to him, he only has to ask and he can have whatever food he wants (as long as it's healthy) and he's very happy to eat healthy food. It's not junk food he hoards, it's whatever he can get. It's as if he's trying to make sure he will have something to eat in those times when his parents don't have any food in the house for anybody. For this boy, stealing food is a coping strategy. Not a healthy one, but it is what he has developed to help him cope. What I'm trying to say - your daughter is not an average kid. What she has been through, you only know the tip of the iceberg. At 15 she has probably buried a lot of the nastier stuff and can't even remember, even if she wanted to. But it's still done damage and left her with her "coping strategies". Before she can lose these, she needs to know why, and to have alternative strategies. And they have to be worked out carefully, not simply imposed on her. She's probably had a great deal of people imposing their will on her (it's one facet of abuse, after all) and needs to be part of the process. Alternative coping strategy for this will not be as simple as "Do the right thing." A quick example - difficult child 3 likes to throw stones. He watches how they fall. it's an obsession with him. We couldn't stop him, his drive to throw stones was too strong. For him, it's a coping mechanism. So we had to give him an alternative, and work with him to develop this. What we gave him (and it seemed to work for him) was - blowing bubbles. One day he left his bottle of bubble mix (pocket-sized) in the classroom and wanted to go back and get it. The teacher on playground duty stopped him and he got very upset, screaming at her. Now, I understand why he got upset, it is something absolutely vital to his ability to cope. But the teacher did not understand - to her, this was a kid who had left a toy in the classroom and he needed to learn personal responsibility, having to do without it was his lesson in learning to remember it next time. The teacher didn't understand, and her response, while probably correct for most kids, was very bad in difficult child 3's case. Does this help explain what I'm trying to say? You are doing a wonderful thing, trying to help this girl. I really hope you are able to help her, but it's clearly no picnic. You need to get right into her head in order to be able to start from there and lead her more gently into the behaviours you want her to adopt. Until you can do this, I think you are set up for failure. But if you can find out where all this has come from, and help her replace some of these strategies with more acceptable ones, then you have a much better chance of success. It also should be more painless. Marg [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Forums
Parent Support Forums
General Parenting
Hello ladies! (LONG)
Top