How big/long of a post can you do?

[Mallygrl]

My daugher is 15 (will be 16 in two weeks) and has ODD, she is in detention and we have court tomorrow, and I am REALLY struggling with whether or not to let her come home. I have been keeping track of her behavior for the last month or so and would really like to put it out there and see what you all think. But it is like 4 pages long.
Thoughts???

 

[witzend]

Give us the highlights. ie: "Used the hose to fill my gas tank with water when I asked her to wash the car." (Who's difficult child was that, anyway? Or am I the only one that remembers that?) Not the whole background as to why you asked her to wash the car and why she was mad at you and destroyed your car instead.

 

[amazeofgrace]

hmmm my difficult child I was in detention last week and thought it was Disney World and that is was doing wonders for his "Rap career", so he is one house arrest now, and i am taking it one hour at a time, and there are hours where I would like to send him back to detention! Especially when he's in my face making demands and wanting his "luxuries" back

Prayers, it's not an easy decision either way

 

[Mallygrl]

ok, this may not make alot of sense but it will give you some idea of how things go with us. she has been physically agressive to me in the past and ended up in detention for domestic violence. She has had subsequent "visits" back to detention for breaking probation. she has been in there 15 times in the last 4 years. In the past month alone these are just some of the behaviors.
1) got in a car with a couple of guys she did not know and went out of town for a few hours
2)got suspended from school for being off campus smoking pot. she denied doing it that day but admitted to doing it a few weeks prior and did fail a UA
3)after a disagreement with me she went to school and told the couselor that she was going to run away and then commit suicide, in the midst of this she was caught with a marijuana pipe (unused) and expelled from school for the rest of the year.
4)has boys at the house when I am not home even though it is a written rule "no body over until I get home"
5) slams doors, cupboards, etc. when she won't get her way
AND HERE IS THE REASON SHE IS IN DETENTION THIS TIME:
When I checked the cell phone bill, I saw that we had exceeded our minutes. (I had told her two days ago that we were getting close to going over and to PLEASE be careful. She said she would.) I called her up to my room and told her she needed to give me her phone because she had gone over the minutes and she said, “no, you can’t take it…..why are you trying to take it” I explained it yet again, and she still just kept repeating herself, but getting more and more agitated each time. I finally realized it was downstairs and went and got it. I told her she could have it back when the cycle started again, but at that time she was only going to have it during the day and would have to give it to me in the evenings. This really set her off and she just became more and more agitated. I told her she needed to stop or I was just going to call and have it canceled. She just kept on and on and on so I tried to just break the phone and she grabbed my arms and was holding me telling me that I needed to listen to her. She said “I listened to you now you need to listen to me” I tired to leave my room and she blocked the door and kept pushing me back saying “I listened to you now you need to listen to me”. I tried to remain calm and kept telling her she could not prevent me from moving freely about my house, but she would not move. I told her I was going to call the police and she said for what, when I said again, that she could not prevent me from moving around my house or leaving my house, she said “how about if I just leave then, huh?” I called the police and while I was on the phone she left the house. The officers came and while we were talking, she came back in. When the officer said he wanted to speak to her she started getting really disrespectful and mouthy with him, and he finally ended up telling her he was arresting her for domestic violence. She tried to get away from him and kept telling him he could not prove anything. He finally had to basically chase her down and put the handcuffs on her. She is now being charged with domestic violence, resisting arrest, and possibly unlawful imprisonment.
Sorry this is so long, but I wanted you to get a good picture of what happened.

 

[witzend]

Honestly, if it were me (and once upon a time it was) I would show up at court and tell them that you can't control her, you fear for your safety, and she can't come home. The list you gave makes perfect sense, and a juvenile counselor or a judge will read it. They won't read six pages. She'll likely be mouthy with the judge, and they'll figure out what to do with her. You can go from there as to trying to mend your relationship or getting her the experience she needs to get her own place.

One thing that kids do tell each other in juvie is "If you tell the judge that you'll run away if they send you home, they won't send you home." She may just take the decision out of your hands by doing so.

 

[TerryJ2]

Hi Mallygirl,
the escalation sounds identical to what I used to go through with-my difficult child son.
I had to stop it--especially the physicial part--because he's my size now.

I have never called the police on him. It wouldn't occur to me, just for what went on in your house, frankly. Maybe I have a higher tolerance level. Or maybe I'm just so stubborn I think I can carry the world on my shoulders with-o police help, LOL!

I learned, and am still learning, to distance myself, physically and emotionally, IOW, detach. I am still bad at it (I shouted at him at dinner tonight) but we have been through so much counseling and have learned the hard way to stop the escalation.

You could have prevented the escalation in this instance by dropping the discussion with-the phone. You knew she was getting agitated and yet you continued it. In this kind of circumstance, we, the parents, need to decide how and when to begin and end a discussion or encounter, and it is very important that we think things through. You could have turned and walked away, which I know sounds like she "won," but is not true. Just say, "Time out. We'll talk about this later." So you end it on your terms, temporarily.

When you tried to break the phone, you blew it. Sorry, I don't mean to upset you--believe me, I've done this sort of thing a zillion times--but you cannot engage your difficult child when she is in that mode of operation. It will only lead to disaster, as you clearly found out.

One of the most embarrassing but beneficial things that ever happened to me was last yr, when my difficult child was late for school and our carpool mom was out in front. We had just learned in counseling to let natural consequences happen, and I should have kept my mouth shut and just let them drive away, but on top of it, the mom felt an obligation to drive him, so she waited.

At that point, difficult child decided to change the contents of his lunch, and stood in front of the pantry, hemming and hawing, while I got more and more agitated. I should have just walked away.
I went to grab something out of his hand, he hit my arm, and I grabbed his wrist. It was truly a decisive cliffhanger moment ...

and the carpool mom let herself in the front door and saw (and heard) what was going on. She gently took difficult child's other hand, and in a calm voice, told him to go with-her. She is about 5'10" and athletic. She repeated herself a cpl times and he finally listened.
As an aside, she reminded me, "Do not engage him."
Boy, was I embarrassed.
She has an autistic son so she knows how out of control it can get.

Having someone witness and intervene was the best thing that ever happened. No matter how often we go to therapy, there is still something too abstract about it.

So if I'd been at your house, I would have grown 6" taller, and developed an incredibly calm demeanor, separated you two, let your daughter take the phone (to be dealt with-later, no mistake about it!!!) and would not have had you call the police.

When you daughter calmed down, I would have had you talk to her calmly (that's the hardest part as we all know) and tell her to hand you the phone, so it isn't an act that is perceived as aggression on your part. IOW, if you take the phone, even if it's not by force, she perceives it as an act of aggression. You've got to convince her that it's her idea.

She's clearly very impulsive and needs boundaries. The phone is a good start.

Is she on any medications? I don't see any in your profile.

 

[Andy]

Maybe a court ordered inpatient chemical dependency program is what she needs for now. Ask if she can be assessed for that and than revisit the coming home option when she completes treatment.

 

[Mallygrl]

Yes, staying detached is my biggest obstacle. She is such a master at manipulation. And I have nobody to "tag team" with. She WANTS to come home. She asks me everyday to please let her come home. Which is really hard, but I feel like it is manipulation. I know she will come home and start demanding her privileges. I know I can't trust her, but it is really hard when she tells me she can't prove anything to me if I won't give her a chance, and I feel like I give her too many chances.....the ol' vicious cycle....LOL
It's also really hard because I have to work and that leaves her with a lot of unsupervised alone time.
Jeesh, I think I just answered my own question, huh? I don't see how I can really let her come home, but I don't feel like her just sitting in detention is getting us anywhere either. I think I need to go and write down my thoughts to present to the judge in the morning. I agree with Adrianne, maybe I need to ask for some kind of inpatient therapy. I am starting to have an anxiety attack (racing heart etc) just thinking about it :-(

 

[TerryJ2]

It's also really hard because I have to work and that leaves her with a lot of unsupervised alone time.

Eow. That's tough.

I think I need to go and write down my thoughts to present to the judge in the morning.

Good idea!

I agree with Adrianne, maybe I need to ask for some kind of inpatient therapy.

I like that too.

I am starting to have an anxiety attack (racing heart etc) just thinking about it :-(

Nonono! Stay calm. Here's a cyberhug. {{{hugs}}Take a break if you need to. Put in an old I Love Lucy tape or something to give your mind a rest.

 

[Andy]

Breathe - Slow breath in/Slow breath out.

Tell her that she can prove herself by following the judges ruling. She doen't need to be home for you to see that she can be trusted.

She has been in trouble at least twice for drugs during the school hour - that may help a case for a treatment.

She knows at home she is facing time alone - so much freedom. At a treatment center, she will be safe and maybe, just maybe recognize her downfalls.

Keep your anxiety at bay. This will be hard, but you can do it. Writing your plan down will help. If you need to share it, we are here for you.

 

[witzend]

I have to agree with what Terry said, as well. The phone should have just disappeared or the SIM card removed. You do not owe them an explanation, and we stoop to lower than their level when we let them engage us in debate. There is no debate. It's your house, your phone, your food, your heat or A/C, your electricity, etc.

She does sound out of control, and you will need some stronger skills to get her back under control. As it is she seems to have no respect for you, so it doesn't seem reasonable that she come home at this time.

 

[Mallygrl]

After she went into detention I did a "vacation suspension" on her phone, so it's not usable, but I didn't have to pay the disconnect fee and it can be off for 3 months.
She is not on any medication, in the past she has been on mulitple types but with little to no effect. We both have actually. Then she just started refusing to take them any longer.
I went to a new counselor yesterday and he is going to try me on Lemictal because none of the anti-depressant family (Effexor, Zoloft, Paxil, Wellbutrin, Prozac) has ever helped me (or her for that matter) So he thinks I may be bi-polar. I am so excited that I may finally get something that works, at least I have someone who is willing to try something different. I hope, hope, hope, that it helps me with my anger towards her and all my other issues as well!!! LOL But one of my biggest hopes is that she will see a change in me and be more willing to try medication again. Plus, I am sure the judge is going to court order her to resume counseling and medication, so that will be helpful.

 

[Christy]

Just wanted to offer my support. (((hugs))) I'm sorry you are faced with such a difficut situation. It is worth mentioning to the judge that you work during the day and she will be unsupervised. Maybe a day program is an option.

As for the cell phone argument, it is alway easy for others to give thoughtful, rational advice because there is no emotional involvement. Keeping your cool and making good decisions at the time is something we all struggle with. I know I do! A possible solution in that situation, rather than confronting and arguing with difficult child, call the cell phone company and have that phone deactivated, if they give you a hard time about this, report it stolen. When difficult child discovers that the phone no longer works you can tell her that she went over the minutes and so you had it terminated. If there is a fee to reactivate it, she will need to pay it.

The toughest thing about difficult child returning home, is exactly what you said, she will expect you to immediately trust her and give her back the priveleges. Be sure before she comes home that you explain to her, perhaps in the presence of a counselor, that her record of behaviors indicates that she is not currently tustworthy. Create a time period where no priveleges will be reinstated regardless of behavior and then a schedule for privelges to be returned should they be earned.

Good luck, I hope you find the help you need for difficult child and you!
Christy

 

[TerryJ2]

Good luck with-the medications. I don't know how long it takes for them to take effect so you may have to be patient.
Best of luck for when she comes home. I've got my fingers crossed.

 

[Mallygrl]

Well court is over and I told the judge I did not want her released :-( It was REALLY REALLY hard to do that, but I just feel that at this time, (until I can get some support), having her at home unsupervised is not going to benefit her. She is really mad at me. When I said I didn't want her released she started crying, and then I heard her attorney say something about "maintain contact with your mom" and she adamantly shook her head no.

 

[busywend]

Well, I wish I saw this last night.

You said, "I don't want her released." or whatever your actual words were. If she is anything like my difficult child, she heard 'I do not love her or care about her.'

Now, we realize that is not the case. But, to a difficult child that gives a GREAT sob story to tell to others. Who cares! Let her tell it. She will get some attention from others - yeah difficult child!

What you really mean is: I do not want this child to be released from custody without the help and intervention we need. She needs:
-a mental health evaluation
-counseling
-possibly medication
-after school supports
-summer care

You know that if she comes home it is less healthy for her. She will have so many opportunities to get into trouble.

You need to protect yourself and your belongs, too. Lock up everything. Too bad if it makes her 'feel like you do not trust me'. Just too bad. She did that, not you. This would be a natural consequence of being snotty and disresepctful. Mom doesn't trust you anymore.

I so know what you are dealing with on the 'I listened to you now you have to listen to me' speech. It is so rational to them, isn't it? Some times I would stop and listen to her. A few times she had really good points. Most times I wound up scratching my head wondering how her brain worked!

You mentioned many types of medications - but which ones and what did they do for/to her? Has she been diagnosis'd with ADD at all?

 

[Mallygrl]

Yes, unfortunately, I know that is what she is thinking. And nothing I say will convince her differently. Even when she was home, she would say I didn't love her if I didn't let her have a friend over, or let her have her phone, or any number of reasons.
I do lock my bedroom, I started doing that to try and avoid the kind of fight we had last week, it was the only way I could get her to stop being agressive towards me. Even then she would sit outside my door and knock or bang on it, literally for hours.
Some of these behaviors have gotten better (like the banging on the door) but for the most part things are pretty rough around the ol' homestead.

 

[Wonderful Family]

Couple other thoughts.

Protect yourself and your daughter. Write down and list what the rules that are the end game - when do you call the police, hospitalize, or whatever. No arguments then about what the options are. And it also makes it easier to judge in those heated moments about "do you or don't you?" All you have to do is follow the rules.

Put the computer program in your head of "do not engage", "do not engage" anytime she starts sounding even slightly unreasonable. This really helps me backoff - and sometimes I even start yelling it outloud to myself, in another room.

Good luck tomorrow.

 

[Mallygrl]

Good Morning
Just a little update on my daughter, she is still in detention. I have had to make the decision every week to leave her in there because I just don't feel like she (or I ) are ready for her to come home. I spent about 20 minutes on the phone with her old probation officer, (he worked with her for two years)and he feels that she may have Borderline Personality Disorder, which she does fit alot of the criteria. The court is considering putting her back into a lock down facility, however I am not sure that will be beneficial to her. A few minutes ago, I was reading a post from people and parents who are dealing with this, but I was not actually logged in and now I can't find that particular post!!! I am really at a loss right now, I am concerned that even though I have been told they will court order her to go to counseling and take medications and stay away from the friends who she gets into trouble with, that if I let her come home, things will be the same. But I HATE the idea of sending her back to the lock down facility because I am not sure it was theraputic for her. But don't want to burn my bridges and say no, and then want her to later. Sorry this is sort of rambling!! Oh and by the way, I did start the Lamictal, and not sure if I see any changes, but was able to "not engage" in an argument she started when I went to see her last!! woohooo

 

[TerryJ2]

Every little improvement is big, in my humble opinion.
You will have to come up with-a plan, because you cannot do this forever (or at least until she's 18). As the saying goes, if you keep doing the same thing, you will get the same results.
She's finished with-school, right? Did she get her GED? A big project and goal like that would be a good idea.
Do you have any family, friends or a professional you can hire who can help you at home a bit?
I know others here who have been through this will be able to help you.
{{hugs}}